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gargantuan creature rules stsae that sniper and poisoned weapons only wound it on a 6
Vindicare hellfire rounds always wound on a 2+,and are not poisoned like SM hellfires,but are sniper weapons

I'm not familiar with the gargantuan creature rules but basing it purely off of the information you've given about them I would say it wounds on a 6 still. This being that even though the hellfire round of the Vindicare doesn't have the poisoned rule, the rifle itself still uses the sniper rule. So if the rules for gargantuan creatures specifically mention the sniper rule then regardless of what the wound value would normally be it is automatically set to 6.

its confusing because they both say ALWAYS wound on a (6/2+)
thanks for your imput

The assassins shots need to be FAQ'd as the turbo pen round vs the monolith is also up for discussion....

I would just try and avoid that situation

Deadshot wrote:its confusing because they both say ALWAYS wound on a (6/2+)
thanks for your imput

The official answer according to GW's FAQ is:

good answer

Deadshot wrote:good answer

Not really, all it does is encourage people to argue knowing that they'll get their way (even if it's obviously wrong) half the time.

lets roll off to see whos right...lol

I would say its the 6 based on the information you provided if the vindicares weapon is classified as a sniper then it is pretty clear. The sniper weapon vs Gargantuan creature is more specific than the vindicares 2+ to wound vs everything(non vehicle) rule.

Actually GW answer is roll of rather then spoil the game, then discus and create a house rule later.

I think the biggest problem is Apocalypse rules were designed to mesh with the 4th edition rule books and codices. Since the rules for gargantuan creatures state that all sniper weapons wound on 6+ that's what you getting.

speaking of i think GW needs to reright apoc to stop these from happening

It would certainly solve several of the problems with being an edition out of date.

thats why GW write new codexes tinstead of simply writng an FAQ saying ignore all references to target priority.tell GW to change it.if enough people say so,they might do it!

It's the same hellfire round used by all marine armies that have them, making it a poisoned weapon. Yet another ball got dropped on that writing ><

actually its not.it does not say anywhere in the vindicares rules thatn its poisoned.i specified this on ther first post

Deadshot wrote:Vindicare hellfire rounds always wound on a 2+,and are not poisoned like SM hellfires,but are sniper weapons

I'm aware of that

Just like I am aware that all versions of the Hellfire Round in the Imperium are listed as poison attacks, except for this poorly researched and written one.

If you want an even more confusing one to this same question, look at the entry in the Blood Angels codex

how's it poorly researched?it says,word for word,these shells always wound on a 2+!

whats it say on BA dont have codex and am not going to GW at 3.30am

How is it poorly researched? It's the same Hellfire round used by how many other marine chapters, but he forgot to put the poison tag on the end. It's like putting melta guns in the codex, stating they get the extra pen dice, but forgetting to put the actual melta rule in the entry. Then you would have another silly situation just like this where henchmen lists would be claiming their melta guns DO work on an Eldar Avatar because their guns don't have the "melta" rule listed.

The BA codex has the hellfire round clearly listed as 2+ poison, but puts a * at the end of it for a special note

The special note then says something along the lines of how this round always wounds on a 2+... which you should already have known since it was poisoned, but now you could claim that poisoned or not, the BA round should still wound Gagantuan creatures on a 2+ since the rule has "always" in it. A case where redundancy actually confused a rule instead of confirming it

Deadshot wrote:its confusing because they both say ALWAYS wound on a (6/2+)
thanks for your imput

The special ability of the weapon isn't that special. The rule for gargantuan says all sniper and w/e, and the vindicare rifle has the sniper (I'm assuming). That's it.

Saying otherwise is like saying "the rule for [example vehicle] say it's immune to melta, but the melta rules say they roll 2d6 for penetration, so what applies?" It seems obvious.

Lordhat wrote:

Deadshot wrote:its confusing because they both say ALWAYS wound on a (6/2+)
thanks for your imput

The official answer according to GW's FAQ is:

I can guess what's in that video...

don_mondo wrote:

Deadshot wrote:good answer

Not really, all it does is encourage people to argue knowing that they'll get their way (even if it's obviously wrong) half the time.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:It would certainly solve several of the problems with being an edition out of date.

...and this is truth. Going by frequent experiences (need I mention for everything, every game, even before GW made that rule), just thinking about it makes my blood pressure go up, by alot. Like i'm seriously going to turn my air conditioner up and take off all my clothes now to cool down.

I'm only 2/3 serious..... I keep my shorts and socks on.

omerakk wrote:I'm aware of that

Just like I am aware that all versions of the Hellfire Round in the Imperium are listed as poison attacks, except for this poorly researched and written one.

If you want an even more confusing one to this same question, look at the entry in the Blood Angels codex

I see what you guys are talking about. There is alot of issues with those assassins, hopefully I can avoid them for 10 years until they get rewritten.

omerakk wrote:How is it poorly researched? It's the same Hellfire round used by how many other marine chapters, but he forgot to put the poison tag on the end. It's like putting melta guns in the codex, stating they get the extra pen dice, but forgetting to put the actual melta rule in the entry. Then you would have another silly situation just like this where henchmen lists would be claiming their melta guns DO work on an Eldar Avatar because their guns don't have the "melta" rule listed.

The BA codex has the hellfire round clearly listed as 2+ poison, but puts a * at the end of it for a special note

The special note then says something along the lines of how this round always wounds on a 2+... which you should already have known since it was poisoned, but now you could claim that poisoned or not, the BA round should still wound Gagantuan creatures on a 2+ since the rule has "always" in it. A case where redundancy actually confused a rule instead of confirming it

in the case of the melta,GWwould correct this in FAQ

the antimelta armour,ie stormravens,thunderhawks,etc,say that shots that fire do not get tyhe extra dice for melta,not as you put it,immune to melta.

thirdly,you cannot use BLOOD ANGELS CODEX RULES for a GREY KNIGHTS UNIT.you cannot say vindicares fire the same rounds as BA,that btw can only be used in a bolter.The assassin uses exitus weaponry,so fires a different shell.it is not written anywhere as poisoned so it is not poisoned.

but in the overall scheme of things it matters not wehat your opinion is because i decide whether im doing the right thing or not.

in the case of the melta,GWwould correct this in FAQ

Only because it has far more problems than the hellfire round, which only seems to effect 1 type of unit in an outdated version of the game they haven't bothered correcting in a long time

the antimelta armour,ie stormravens,thunderhawks,etc,say that shots that fire do not get tyhe extra dice for melta,not as you put it,immune to melta.

I never said anything about those units, I was talking about the Eldar Avatar which is immune to the melta rule. I was pointing out a single instance where such a problem could occur, similar to what you were point out by starting this thread.

thirdly,you cannot use BLOOD ANGELS CODEX RULES for a GREY KNIGHTS UNIT.you cannot say vindicares fire the same rounds as BA,that btw can only be used in a bolter.The assassin uses exitus weaponry,so fires a different shell.it is not written anywhere as poisoned so it is not poisoned.

You asked what was confusing about the BA codex, I told you, and now you're upset at me for doing it? That's a new one
And what exactly makes you think the same type of round can't be used in different weapons? Assault rifles and sniper rifles can both be issued the same type in real life, and in the game, there are several weapons that fire the same types of rounds already. Why is this scenario totally impossible for the grey knights codex? Remember the multi laser and krak missile misprints from a few years ago? Is it that big of a stretch that the same thing might have happened here by sheer oversight?

but in the overall scheme of things it matters not wehat your opinion is because i decide whether im doing the right thing or not.

So then wtf was the point of this thread if you didn't want anyone's opinion unless they agreed with you? I'll step out of this conversation now by saying the same thing to you that I said to scout-shunters a few months back: Play it however you like for now and have fun... just don't act shocked when a future faq ruins your fun.

omerakk wrote:

in the case of the melta,GWwould correct this in FAQ

Only because it has far more problems than the hellfire round, which only seems to effect 1 type of unit in an outdated version of the game they haven't bothered correcting in a long time

the antimelta armour,ie stormravens,thunderhawks,etc,say that shots that fire do not get tyhe extra dice for melta,not as you put it,immune to melta.

I never said anything about those units, I was talking about the Eldar Avatar which is immune to the melta rule. I was pointing out a single instance where such a problem could occur, similar to what you were point out by starting this thread.

thirdly,you cannot use BLOOD ANGELS CODEX RULES for a GREY KNIGHTS UNIT.you cannot say vindicares fire the same rounds as BA,that btw can only be used in a bolter.The assassin uses exitus weaponry,so fires a different shell.it is not written anywhere as poisoned so it is not poisoned.

You asked what was confusing about the BA codex, I told you, and now you're upset at me for doing it? That's a new one
And what exactly makes you think the same type of round can't be used in different weapons? Assault rifles and sniper rifles can both be issued the same type in real life, and in the game, there are several weapons that fire the same types of rounds already. Why is this scenario totally impossible for the grey knights codex? Remember the multi laser and krak missile misprints from a few years ago? Is it that big of a stretch that the same thing might have happened here by sheer oversight?

but in the overall scheme of things it matters not wehat your opinion is because i decide whether im doing the right thing or not.

So then wtf was the point of this thread if you didn't want anyone's opinion unless they agreed with you? I'll step out of this conversation now by saying the same thing to you that I said to scout-shunters a few months back: Play it however you like for now and have fun... just don't act shocked when a future faq ruins your fun.

theway the blood angels bit was written made it sound as if you saying use their rules.the melta rule would be a misprint because it would be written asd meklta one time and not anywhere else.Besides the Avatar would still be immune because he is immune to any heat based weapons,including meltas,whether with the rule or not,as per the Eldar FAQ

Hellfire rounds in all SM codexessay that they can only be used in bolters(and in fluff terms s.bolters and pistol because thy shoot the same round)buyt vindicares fire different ones,as noted by different wording and ap.

i wrote the posting to get opinions and reasons,but if you look at the results most people agree weith you and some agree with me,it probably ios a misprint and as soon as games workshop fixes it ill be happy,but untill then im reading the RAW because no other Grey Knight unit has them to compare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
asnd you cant compare to other codexes.

RAW - wounds on a 6+

Remember that when the Apoc book was written ALL snipers wounded on a 2+, so this is not only RAW but RAI as well.

The weapon is a sniper weapon and would be affected by the Gargantuan creatures, snipers only wound on a 6+ rule.

actually i have new info.i sent the problem to GW email,they wrote back saying that codex rules override expansion rules,every time,so the assassin would wound on 2+,but his other shots on a 6 as normal as they do not say they wound on a specific number

Except thats wrong, oddly enough

codex rules overriding expansion seems logical,giving that a codex is needed to even field an army

No, specific overrules general.

both rules are specific,always on 6 and always on 2+ but the creatture rules are more general as they say all snipers.

Deadshot wrote:actually i have new info.i sent the problem to GW email,they wrote back saying that codex rules override expansion rules,every time,so the assassin would wound on 2+,but his other shots on a 6 as normal as they do not say they wound on a specific number

If you write to GW 3 different times, you'll receive 5 different answers. It's an absolutely terrible way to get a rules question answered.