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I'm a Tyranid player who's likely to encounter a Vindicare at some point. I'd be prepared to compromise on a "Hellfire wounding Gargantuans on a 4+" agreement, if a player wasn't happy with the 'weapons with the sniper rule always need a 6 to wound it no matter what other rules they have regarding rolling to wound' position.

It's a middle ground on an issue that's likely to never be FAQ'd. (We gave GW our monies for the Apoc rulebook, and for the supplements that add three things to the army we actually use, and for the stack of models to make into formations that now have terminal clashes with the Codex and are near unplayable. The shareholders and execs have their sports cars, the website has photos of people throwing buckets of dice across battlefields, and the matter is thereby closed.)

Hellfire rounds were specifically designed to inflict horrendous damage on Tyranids, in a fashion that can't be evolved around. Here they're being fired from a gun that routinely blasts Land Raiders to pieces, by a marksman who routinely puts a bullet through the eye of a target half a city away. It's fair to assume there's a reasonable chance of a higher success rate of causing damage than for a Ratling with a mass-produced rifle.

There's an argument for letting Johnny Vindicare take pot-shots at a big regenerator than putting two wounds on a Prime or Broodlord to prevent wound allocation. Giving him false hope of giantkilling could be an asset!

i forgot about fluff for the hellfires.but i like the 4+ thing and am willing to comprimise if my opponent will

lindsay40k wrote:Hellfire rounds were specifically designed to inflict horrendous damage on Tyranids, in a fashion that can't be evolved around. Here they're being fired from a gun that routinely blasts Land Raiders to pieces, by a marksman who routinely puts a bullet through the eye of a target half a city away. It's fair to assume there's a reasonable chance of a higher success rate of causing damage than for a Ratling with a mass-produced rifle.

There's a few fallacies. I know most people don't understand alot of the physics of weapons and combat, and i'm not going to explain it all. It would be wrong for you to assume that because a land raider can be blown up that this weapon would even be effective against a large tyranid.

So far the GW stats for the weapon make no sense, or I haven't realized what it is yet. Physics and the rules will never get along with this one, and reality is irrelevant to 40k rules, so i'll just skip talking about it's stats.

Actually I don't want to do an in depth explanation for the reasoning behind the gargantuan rule either, because it shows another flaw with the system. Now it makes me wonder if they created the rule for the reason I thought, because how could this be represented so poorly? The alternative is they made it up for no reason, and that can't be it...

So I don't know if I even said anything, but hey, it took me half an hour to write this, so i'm already sleeping...

Erik - you do realise the vindicare has different rounds?

The hellfire was indeed developed to combat tyranids
Turbo penetrator blows landraiders away

they are two different rounds. So, before commenting on others fallacies, you should probably remove your own first - namely ignorance of the rules for the vindicare

The vindicare is BS8 so tends to hit.

Well hang on there, let's just throw together the known facts.

A Gargantuan Creature is absolutely ruddy gigantic. The 'this stuff only wounds on a 6' represents the fact that most poisoned and precision strikes that'll turn a human-sized target into a headless, frothing corpse are just pinpricks to it.

The Exitus Long Rifle is a ludicrously powerful sci-fi sniper rifle. Even its standard ammo makes a mockery of the most effective personal armour in its sci-fi setting.

The Vindicare is an incredibly good marksman. On a target like a Heirodule, he's going to be hitting it in the eye an awful lot.

Hellfire is like Kryptonite to Tyranids. It's a mutagenic acid that was specifically designed as a chemical weapon against which hyper-evolution is no defence.

Someone that skilled, putting a round of that stuff into the brain of a creature with that rifle, can reasonably be expected to have a significantly better chance of doing noticeable damage than a Guardsman desperately plugging las rounds into its eye - that in all likelihood are barely leaving marks on an inch-thick transparent chitinous protective layer.

a very good point.i think most GC are T7+ so a lasgun can't even harm it

Now wait a minute, lindsay just quoted the fluff for the hellfire round used by the OTHER space marine armies, which are poisoned. That's why they wound easily but have no ap and use the ap of the weapon fired. If you're agreeing with lindsay's interpretation, then you're agreeing it's the same type of round

lindsay40k wrote:Well hang on there, let's just throw together the known facts.

A Gargantuan Creature is absolutely ruddy gigantic. The 'this stuff only wounds on a 6' represents the fact that most poisoned and precision strikes that'll turn a human-sized target into a headless, frothing corpse are just pinpricks to it.

The Exitus Long Rifle is a ludicrously powerful sci-fi sniper rifle. Even its standard ammo makes a mockery of the most effective personal armour in its sci-fi setting.

The Vindicare is an incredibly good marksman. On a target like a Heirodule, he's going to be hitting it in the eye an awful lot.
Someone that skilled, putting a round of that stuff into the brain of a creature with that rifle, can reasonably be expected to have a significantly better chance of doing noticeable damage than a Guardsman desperately plugging las rounds into its eye - that in all likelihood are barely leaving marks on an inch-thick transparent chitinous protective layer.

this is the parts i was talking about ,sorry.the bits about vindicares hitting eyes and that.

you can't just assume that hellfires are the same as any others just because they have the same name.unless its then it can't be poisoned.RAI is different.if the author simply left it of by accident then GW will FAQ it and problem solverd.alternitivly they could update Apoc to cope,like they did with CoD

They MAY faq it. I certainly hope they do.
Orks had to wait 3 years to get 1 errata fixed as well as some of their most common questions ><

i hope they do too.

The round fired doesn't matter, it's still a sniper weapon no matter how you look at it. You still benefit from the sniper bonuses with it. It wounds on a 6+.

It seems to me the fact that the Exitus rifle is a sniper weapon is being glossed over in favor of what kind of bullet it actually fires. Regardless of the round being fired the rifle is and will always be a sniper weapon this falling under the purview of the Gargantuan creature rule.

For instance, if you were to shoot at a squad of space marines with the hellfire round and kill someone would they have to take a pinning test? The answer would be yes, because the squad has taken a wound from a weapon with the Sniper special rule.

The Gargantuan creature rule is more specific than the hellfire rule because it highlights Sniper weapons in its text. If the hellfire round had an added line of "Always wounds gargantuan creatures on a 2+" you would have a basis for argument. Unfortunately it doesn't so the hellfire round rule becomes the general statement with the Gargantuan creature rule becoming a more specific sub category of possible scenarios.

Kevin949 wrote:The round fired doesn't matter, it's still a sniper weapon no matter how you look at it. You still benefit from the sniper bonuses with it. It wounds on a 6+.

And which bonuses would that be?

ok lets take a step back and look at it this way the apocalypse rules are an extention of the core rules yes? therefore a core rulebook
and codex rules ALWAYS superceeds core rules.
so regardless if the round it poisoned or not (which at the current time it is not) or if its fired from a sniper rifle the rule in the codex says it always wounds on a 2+. not it always wounds on a 2+ except against gargantuan creatures.


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oh and kevin the round fired does matter when it has a special rule that says different than the core rules

You see that bit you bolded? It's not true, not true at all.

Kharnflakes wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:The round fired doesn't matter, it's still a sniper weapon no matter how you look at it. You still benefit from the sniper bonuses with it. It wounds on a 6+.

And which bonuses would that be?

ok lets take a step back and look at it this way the apocalypse rules are an extention of the core rules yes? therefore a core rulebook
and codex rules ALWAYS superceeds core rules.
so regardless if the round it poisoned or not (which at the current time it is not) or if its fired from a sniper rifle the rule in the codex says it always wounds on a 2+. not it always wounds on a 2+ except against gargantuan creatures.


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oh and kevin the round fired does matter when it has a special rule that says different than the core rules

Rending, Pinning, always wounds on 4+...those bonuses. So if you didn't know what they are, you shouldn't be commenting. And before you jump on the "but it's not a 4+ it's a 2+ because of the hellfire round!1!1!1!" or whatever, the fact remains it is STILL a sniper weapon and it will STILL only wound on a 6+. Doesn't matter if the round is poisoned or not, IT IS A SNIPER WEAPON. It's a hellfire round, fired from a sniper rifle.

Also, what Nos said. FYI, you could say that the apoc books are the codex for gargantuan creatures.

So the round says it wounds on a 2+, big deal. what about the tomb stalker? It has a near identical rule to gargantuan creatures, what's your ruling on that? Snipers always wound on a 4+, the round being fired modifies it to a 2+ but it is still a SNIPER weapon. I'm making this as clear as possible. I don't care about the poison ruling, it's moot. So, you have two rules that state you always wound on an X+ roll. But you're firing at a specific creature that states "sniper" weapons only wound on a 6+. So, you still wound on a 2+ against everything else, except gargantuan creatures because their rule is the more specific. And yes, it is still a sniper rifle shooting the round.

alright you brought me round sort of.

pg 1 or 2 is where I addressed tomb stalkers,next to the email to GW

i have only seen never ending circles of the same 2 arguments:

-"sniper rifles wound gargantuan on 6+ it doesn´t matter which bullet is firing...."

-"the hellfire round wounds always wounds 2+ the codex overrides the book rule...."

-"IT IS A SNIPER RIFLE...."

-"shut up ...."

-"no, you shut up..."

-etc.

in my opinion both sides are using valid arguments and there is no sure way to determine which rule overrides the other, the only sensible and reasonable answer (posted by lindsey40K) is let it wound on 4+ IMHO.

in my defense i was willing to compromise using lindsays 4+

I really can't believe this has gone on for 3 pages. The rules for Gargantuan creatures state, as has already been pointed out, "ALL sniper weapons and poisoned weapons wound gargantuan creatures only on a roll of 6." (emphasis mine.)

It says "all sniper weapons." All of them. What is being used to fire a hellfire round? An Exitus pistol and/or rifle. What are the special rules for these weapons? That they are "pistol, sniper" and "heavy 1, sniper", respectively. So Exitus weapons are sniper weapons and would fall under the category of "all sniper weapons." Normally a round from a sniper weapon wounds on a 4+. The hellfire round simply allows the sniper weapon to wound on a 2+ instead, just like a turbo round wounds on a 4+ but inflicts 2 wounds instead. Both are different types of SNIPER ammo for the Exitus pistol/rifle, which are both sniper weapons.

If the hellfire round was being fired from a boltgun, as long as it didn't also have the "poison" special rule attached to it, then it would wound a gargantuan creature on a 2+ as it is not being fired from a sniper weapon. However, since it IS being shot from a sniper weapon, then it will only wound gargantuan creatures on a 6+, as the gargantuan creature rules affect ALL attacks from ALL sniper and poison WEAPONS. It doesn't matter what type of AMMO is being used, rather it is what type of WEAPON.

Deadshot wrote:alright you brought me round sort of.

pg 1 or 2 is where I addressed tomb stalkers,next to the email to GW

I must have missed that part then, sorry.


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Deadshot wrote:in my defense i was willing to compromise using lindsays 4+

No need to "defend" yourself against me or whatever, I knew you were willing to compromise.

I agree with the RAW interpretation of 'it wounds on a 6+'. However in the real-world situation of transporting several cases of figures to a venue to find an opponent refuses to shift from the 'it always wounds on a 2+ no matter what because the 2+ doesn't come from poison or sniper' position, there's enough fluff on their side for me to happily propose my 4+ compromise as a way to get the damn game started, and in future think of that opponent a little more as a TFG and be slightly less keen to play them again.

lindsay40k wrote:I agree with the RAW interpretation of 'it wounds on a 6+'. However in the real-world situation of transporting several cases of figures to a venue to find an opponent refuses to shift from the 'it always wounds on a 2+ no matter what because the 2+ doesn't come from poison or sniper' position, there's enough fluff on their side for me to happily propose my 4+ compromise as a way to get the damn game started, and in future think of that opponent a little more as a TFG and be slightly less keen to play them again.

It's a sniper so it wounds on a 6 ... no being TFG by asking to play by the rules ...

...but really why are you that desperate to use him? Surely you have other more powerful weapons? Vortex grenades, D weapons, titans ...

I am currently playing a campaign at my local GW that allows all maribnes,GK and witch hunters and IG to bwe chosen in the same army list.aat ther end of it in august,there is a 3 day long apoc against die-hard vets who have won 2 weekly bonuses already

infiltrate all around
upgrade 1 modal per army list to have a power weapon,doubles that modals base attacks,strength,and ignores EW.

we have FNP for 1 turn.

there arwe a lot more veteran players on the other side,and I know for a fact that 1 has a scratch built warlord titan,and an other has 6 shadowswords,3stormswords,a reaver,and a pair of warhounds.this itself is not the issue.the issue in is that the tyranids,necrons,orks and DE are on the chaos side.

my side includes.

a 1000 pts GK army
a 2500pts IG army
my own 4000pts vanilla marine army,4000pts because i squeeze every upgrade possible onto every unit.
my assassin and Kaldor Draigo.
my stormraven.
some other BA and nilla marine armies for beginners,bout AoBR+land raider and/orSR
mno apoc units like GCs or SHV on my side,in fact,no


aside from valkeries/vendettas or SRs being used as flyers,we have no apoc stuff.if push comes to shove then i want a man who is almost stone cold guarenteed to wound GCs,rather than use BCs and Plasmas,to wound minimum toughness of 7 IIRC

If you write to GW three times you'll get three different answers. If you write to any three people you'll get three different answers. That's kind of strange, seeing as how there are only two options.

If you want to go by roll-off though, you can use your poll as a guide. 67% think it should wound on a 6+... so make that a 3+ on your 'problem resolution' test.

Well Deadshot, Vindicare assassins wound on a 6. Still you have a shed load of Imperial stuff lets see what you can get.

Vortex Grenade!
Take it give it to a character reserve him drop him far away from your main force and then throw it. It is beautiful, remove anything it touches no save of any kind. (supers and garantuans take D3 structure and D6 wounds ... still epic)


Master of the chapter (200pts+ models) (min model cost 725pts 1CM,4C, 1T) (min total 925pts but those models / unit can basically have and do anything they like ... normally I'll give one a means to DS and a vortex grenade ... sure he dies but my god that grenade is funny)
This gets you the following assets:-
Ambush - pick a unit that has arrived from strategic reserves every model is hit by an AP3 Sniper. In addition any unit that uses flank march (that turn is also hit).
Precision Strike - Pick one enemy unit (not a flyer) all friendly models shooting at it will hit on a 2+ (worth taking with orks)
Orbital Bombardment - when you get to use it you get a nice Str8 AP3 ApocBarrage 4 ( always hit side armour). and count as ordnance.
Surgical Raids - Each enemy unit that consists of a single model suffers a Str5, AP2 hit (vehicles are hit on side armour) .... Might not sound amazing but there are loads of single models out there.

If you have 3+ Predators then ...
Predator Assassin Squadron (50pts+ models) ... is for you
Target Acquired - Pick a target before the game and you must now destroy it before you can pick some thing else. So long as the support tanks are within 6" of the command tank they may reroll all failed to hits. (tip keep the command tank cheap and hidden so you can TL for longer)

The question is not what alternatives an Imperial player has to firing an Exitus Hellfire round at a Gargantuan, it's the rules issues and social situation that can arise when they feel there's no other option but to do so.

lindsay40k wrote:The question is not what alternatives an Imperial commander has to firing an Exitus Hellfire round at a Gargantuan, it's the rules issues and social situation that can arise when they feel there's no other option but to do so.

No rules issue, Sniper rifles wound on a 6. While you might might think that's unfair it what gargantuan creature do. If you need options I've given some but anything else is wishful thinking.

i canfeel this post has done its job.lets close it and start a new one on helping me with my apoc set-up.where should it go

Tri wrote:

lindsay40k wrote:The question is not what alternatives an Imperial commander has to firing an Exitus Hellfire round at a Gargantuan, it's the rules issues and social situation that can arise when they feel there's no other option but to do so.

No rules issue, Sniper rifles wound on a 6. While you might might think that's unfair it what gargantuan creature do. If you need options I've given some but anything else is wishful thinking.

I've already said that I agree with your rules interpretation.

I can't believe this went more than one page

sniper rifle = sniper rifle

hellfire round = poison weapon

in both cases, wounds on 6+

...be smart enough to know a typo when you see one, and mature enough not to exploit it and ignore a rule at the same time.

If all you want is people agreeing with a flawed attempt at justifying a rule rape, stay away from internet forums.