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ok here goes im originally a space marine player with a large army, my friends have necrons and chaos but the guy i play the most fields orks he has every type of ork unit there is but no matter what i field he gets wiped out and quick its got to the point where i dont even enjoy playin my sm, so much in fact that i started a nid army.
Thing is i love using my sm and have put alot of time and effort into them but when i turn up with them every one starts on the old (here we go no point playin now the over powered space marines have turnt up) and this is not because i cheat in fact i do the complete opposite i normally let the rules slide in my opponents favour just to get a challenge.
So i guess my question is are there any ork players on here that are succesfull against space marines and what they usually use to play them.

My Ork almost always win vs SM. Mostly by tabling the SM, except for the Land Raiders, there shell is pretty hard. We need a sample of his standerd list to really tell what the issue is, becouse SM are the easiest fight for Orks. SM shouldn't beable to handle the amount of dice there forced to roll. If he is losing that much he either has a bad list or needs to learn how to use his Orks. Even Termys die to 60+ attacks on the Waaagh!!!

Ok from what i can remember as it changes nearly everytime it looks something like this
gazzy
10 nobs
def dread with 4 claws
3 killa cans
9 bikers
battle wagon open topped with burnas in it
30 ard boys
30 boys
30 boys
6 defkopters
and the guy with the shock attack gun

he has recently started throwing in some lobbas

His list is all over the place. Combining Kans and Foot Boys with Bikes and BWs won't get him far. Using Kans or BWs at all w/o a KFF Mek is suicide.

It is his list that is the problem, not Orks as a whole. If he switches to Kanwall or BW spam, then your SMs are in for a big suprise.

Needs a bit of nob bikers, mek trading his shokk attack for a kustom force field could help

Incase you ask i normally field a whirlwind and thunder fire cannon at the back
a predator with las
or 2 razorbacks
mostly dont run termies but sometimes 10
devastator squad
2 or 3 dreads in drop pods
LRR most the time
2 or 3 tactical squads with missile launchers
but again this can all change i never field the same army twice in a row


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry for my ignorance but what is kanwall or bw spam
thanks

weiler wrote:Incase you ask i normally field a whirlwind and thunder fire cannon at the back
a predator with las
or 2 razorbacks
mostly dont run termies but sometimes 10
devastator squad
2 or 3 dreads in drop pods
LRR most the time
2 or 3 tactical squads with missile launchers
but again this can all change i never field the same army twice in a row

Well, your stuff is all over too, so pretty much any solid Ork build can crush it: Kanwall, BW spam, Speak Freaks, etc.

Kanwall = 9 KillaKans, 2KFF Meks, boys on foot, then add Lootas, Koptas, and Dreads to taste.
BW spam = 3+ BWs w/Deffrollas protected by KFF, filled with any combination of Boys, Nobs, MegaNobs, and Burnas.
Speed Freaks = Combination of Trukks, Rokkit Buggies, Bikes, and Koptas.

Yeah what i listed was in no way an army list was just the things he seems to have the most problem with when i do play them bad wording on my part.
The kanwall and bw spam sound awesome though played a couple guys at my local gw using the speed freaks type army and its never faired well against me. Also to clarify that list is not his either but it never has the sort of consistency of any of the ones mentioned here
I get called a cheat when i play my proper lists

Well as mentioned his army is everywhere but where it should be. He has elements of having a foot army, and elements of having a fast army.

Is Ghaz and Nobz on foot?
1 dread with all DCCW on it? So once thats immobolised its useless.
9 bikers? Bikers are arguably a hard unit/playstyle to use. They are pricey and still easy to kill in combat, not to mention dont have the numbers/fearless that the other boyz do.
Bunch of boyz is nice. But if he wanted to maximize that more, he could drop ten from each, and with that, add another unit of 20 boyz w pk/nob/bosspole.so 4 units of 20 boyz, and drop the Ard boyz upgrade, thats really just a gimmick most the time and makes cheap boyz not so cheap. So thatll give him a bunch of points to take something more useful, like a KFF BigMek Id bet.

Back to the nobz how does he field them do you remember? Because if its just plain jane nobz, they will still do stuff but wont be near as badass as they could be. On the flip side if they all have PK then its a huge waste of points.


Also his problem might come down alot to how he uses his Orks. Orks are one of those armies where they can be easy to start off with for newer players as they are more forgiving, but also soft enough that if you make a couple bad decisions they can get tabled. Does it seem like he makes alot of poor choices when he plays? If so you should probably give him pointers like "oh no no no, move those guys back, and assault that unit there instead" or "if you were to ask my opinion, Id make that unit hug the terrain for another turn anyways"

1. He will sometimes throw gazzy and nobz in the battle wagon but mostly on foot
2.the nobz dont all have pk
3. he doesnt seem so much to make bad moves just doesnt seem to have enough of one element to overrun me like id imagine orks to do and have done to me before.

so using the things i have listed him having and dropping the points of the battle to make an ork army that could fight with more fluidity, how would you guys run it

His army can't work effectively with those models, sorry to say.

If he wants to be competitive, he has to determine the type of Ork army he wants to play and then invest in those models.

Thanks for the advice unfortunately his funds are non existent so might just have to get him to proxy an effective army or keep playin him with my nids which i dont have a clue on even things out abit

gazzy

- What point levels are you playing at? Ghazzy isn't really appropriate unless you're playing at 1750 minimum. He's good, but too expensive for 1000 or 1500 lists. Also, he better have a ride. Ghazzy almost demands a Battlewagon.

10 nobs

- Too many Nobs for one mob. 6-8 is usually plenty depending on how you equip them. Painboy is a must! Does he put them in a Battlewagon? Doesn't sound like it, and he probably should.

def dread with 4 claws

- This is fine depending on how he uses it and what else he has in the list... but it doesn't sound like he has it. Dreads and Kans need the KFF to be REALLY awesome. Otherwise they're weedy.

3 killa cans

- See above.

9 bikers

- These just don't fit in with anything that's been brought up. If he wants a fast, mobile unit in a list like this, I'd use some Stormboyz instead. Instead of 9 Bikers, use 4 Nob Bikers with a Warboss on a bike as number 5, and you've got a winner.

battle wagon open topped with burnas in it

- With what you've mentioned he has, I'd put Ghazz and the Nobz in here, not Burnas. If not the Nobz, put 20 'Ard Boyz in there. KFF Mek goes great inside too.

30 ard boys
30 boys
30 boys

- Good amount of Boyz. 30 'Ard boyz are likely overkill. 'Ard Boyz are best stuck in a Trukk or a Battlewagon so they get into assault ASAP and get to actually USE that 4+ armor save.

6 defkopters

- I'd use a smaller squad of 2.

and the guy with the shock attack gun

- Could be good, but doesn't have ANY synergy with his list.



My tips for your friend:

1) Get a KFF Mek
2) Get some Lootas
3) Ditch Bikers. Replace with Nob Bikers or Stormboyz or Buggies.
4) Optimize the Nobz and the Battlewagon.

Lobbas is the last thing he should be adding to this list. His list is somewhere in between a footslogging hoard list and a Kan Wall. I'd focus on those aspects and less on his Fast Attack options.

If you want to go easy on your friend, just don't bring your Land Raider. It's really really hard for the Orks to deal with since we basically have nothing in our entire codex we can SHOOT at it to hurt it.

Yeah i have stopped playing my land raider and my trio of whirlwinds against him for obvious reasons
I gave him 15 lootas he doesnt really use so will get him to put these in and i also gave him big mek. We play anything from 1000 to 3000 points but i have made the battles more like 1000p these days just so he can try getting to terms with a play style.
Sorry but to clarify whats the biggie with the kff/ best way to use it i dont play orks gave him my ork stuff
Thanks

The KFF Mek gives everything within 6" of it a 5+ cover save, 4+ for vehicles. If you put the Mek in the Battlewagon, that 6" is measured from the Battlewagon's hull, making for a large area of protection.

He'd want to use a Battlewagon loaded with a squad of Nobs and the Big Mek, flanked by a Deff Dread on one side, the three Kans on the other, and the Boyz behind.

The KFF will give a 4+ cover save to the Battlewagon, the Dread, and the Kans, making them much harder to destroy. The Boyz benefit from the cover that all the vehicles in front of them will give them. He already has a lot of Boyz, so that shouldn't be an issue. In my Kan Wall list I use three squads of 20 Boyz each and it works well.

Then you have options. I could see some Nob Bikers zooming up the flanks, and then the Lootas in the back. How much he can fit in depends on what points you play at.

It's not a perfect Kan Wall formation, but it's close enough to be effective.

So i take it this would work better with 5 kans because i gave him 2 old metal ones just need to get him to fix them up


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also i thought it made vehicles obscured not 4+

Obscured is a 4+ save. But i think a big problem here is attitude. He has decided that all your lists are OP and that you are a cheat, so if he has gotten that stuck in his head, then he won't feel that bad about losing, because he'll just say "Oh, it's because he's a cheater and uses OP lists." He needs to fix his attitude if he wants to win.

You pretty much got that spot on i was just talking to him on skype sayin he should have a better chance of winning using the tactics here and the first thing he said was yeah but you use all blast marker stuff

OOOoooohhhhh so its an attitude thing. Well all I can say is good luck on that. Ive never watched you play, so I really cant comment if your friend is right or not. But saying that, you can give him all the advice in the world but itll be plenty hard to get him to use it correctly because he will always walk in there with that attitude and just not give a gak. Part of me wants to say throw a game.....but thats really not my style. Take a really wacky SM list then? Try everything that is considered to be a poor choice and convince him to use advice here? That way itll be more in his favor.....possibly.

You can show him this thread with everyone saying, that vanilla SM are FAR from over powered. Infact I think SM and Orks are a pretty close match. My best/closest matches are against SM players. But to you, I say stop taking even remotely optimized lists, and get him to get some type of coherent ORk build going, he will see a huge difference in how Orks play when he focuses on building them right.

Personally, i have no patience for bad-attitude players who refuse to beleive that you are winning because their list is bad, and yours is good. I want totell you to take the strongest, most optimised netlist, and beat his ass into the ground, but my better judgement tells me that i shouldn't.

Yet another part of me agrees with Loota too whiners just piss me off, but if you dont have a large group or whatever, sometimes its the best choice to just try and fix his problem. If its a big group like a store or similar then yea, Id try my best for a little bit, but after a while, Id turn his army into a crater

great advice guys i will pass all this on thanks.
Just one more thing how does this cover save on vehicles work from the kff if i get penetrating hit he can then cover save it, is this correct?

Alerian wrote:

Well, your stuff is all over too, so pretty much any solid Ork build can crush it: Kanwall, BW spam, Speak Freaks, etc.

Speak Freaks- the most eloquent of the all the orks

Although pointing out that mis-spelling has amused me it wasnt the answer i was looking for

I play both lists. Correctly built Ork lists give Marine armies nightmares most of the time.

He needs a KFF Mek. The KFF Mek has one of three possible jobs. The Ork army will be based around the kind of job the Mek is assigned:

1.) Stand in the middle of his 3 mobs of 30 Boyz so that they all benefit from the KFF Save, generally this is best with one mob up front that gets the 5+ KFF Save, and the squad behind get the 4+ Cover save from the other mobs.

2.) KFF Mek goes with Boyz in a Battle Wagon, the other Battlewagon (they generally want to be run in pairs, if not in three's), and all the Wagons get a 4+ Cover save from the KFF Mek riding in the middle wagon.

3.) KFF Mek is kind of like the one in Job #1, except that he has 9 killa Kans and he provides a 4+ Cover Save to them. Though with the new FAQ, you may need to run two KFF Mek's to get the Cover Save on all the Kanz and the Boyz mobs.

Other things he can do:
Take Lootas. They kill most marine vehicles and can handle the Thunderfire cannon.

Have one unit of Boyz be Kommandos and take Snikrot, it can come into the SM Players backfield and screw up the artillery/blast units that are screwing with his main force of Boyz.

The fact that you run a Whirlwind is likely his biggest problem. If you want to make life easier on him, don't run the Whirlwind.

Please note that these kind of advice threads are hard if it requires him to buy lots of new models. Based on what he has, he can immediately improve his army as a whole by buying just one KFF Mek Model and running it properly.

With the KFF Mek, the 'Ard Boyz don't need to count as having the extra armor (it's not worth it), just have 90 Boyz + Dread + KFF Mek + 3 Kanz running at you all getting cover saves from the KFF should make life pretty hard. If he ran the Nobz in the Battle Wagon and kept it close enough to the Mek, that can sort of work too. It's not ideal, but it can work.

Ok just need a few detailes about that kff and how that cover save works on vehicles cant find any info on it if i pen his wagon or dread he can then get a 4+ cover save

Any vehicle that is within 6" of the KFF Mek counts as Obscured. That means that if you get a glancing or penetrating hit on that vehicle, he gets a 4+ Cover save before you can roll on the damage table. Page 62 in the rulebook, FYI.

Also note, that if the KFF Mek is inside a vehicle, the effects of the KFF are measured from any point on the hull of that vehicle, which greatly extends the KFF's range.

Just to make it super crystal clear. You roll to hit the vehicle. say you score 5 hits, and of the 5 2 are glances and 1 is a pen. THEN he rolls a 4+ cover save from the KFF on the pens/glances. Make sure he does the glances/pens separate so you dont get hoed. Whatever is failed, then you continue on with the damage chart

Thanks guys you have been a great help

i am the Ork that weiler here is talking about. just to clear things up my attitude to him cheating came about because well 1. i hate space marines and 2. the first few game we started once we got back into battles he did play things wrong. (we all have) so i never let it go that yeh he has cheated but i don't use it as an excuse for me i just like to annoy him.


as for how my army is built yeh it is pretty much all over the gaff but i'm gradually doing different things with it but with having no money the squads i use are small so puts me off them. my problem is i'm not sticking to one set build i tend to just chuck in a bit of everything.

every game we play i enjoy i may lose most of my boyz but i will always win my mission objective.