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The Chaos Lord known as Destandor is one of Khorne's most favoured followers. For his bloody deeds against the inhabitants of Nordland and Hochland as well as Skaven and countless others, he was gifted with the axe Guilliotine, the first Axe of Khorne forged and which was far more powerful than its replicas. Khorne saw the strength and willpower in the fierce warrior and in a vision put him on a mighty task - to imprison all spells known to this day. To aid him, Destandor was granted the juggernaut Rendurok, and a cloak of chains, able to trap magic inside them.

Destandor - 390 pts
M:4 WS:9 BS:3 S:5(6) T:5 W:3 I:7 A:5 Ld:9

Equipment:
Guilliotine (Magic Weapon)
This was the first and mightiest Axe of Khorne, forged in the pyre of a dead Daemon Prince of Khorne and quenched in said mans blood. It cuts of any victims head as clean as its namesake, and also just as bloody.
This axe gives Destandor +1 Strength (included above) and the Killing Blow special rule. However, to wound rolls of 5 or 6 causes Killing Blow, instead of just rolls of 6.

Chains of the Spell Prison (Enchanted Item)
This cloak is made of several chains with their origin in the rumoured spell prison - a tomb where Khorne wishes to entrap all magic and then execute them, banishing all hated magic once and for all. They have a repellant effect on magic, and may also entrap spells completely should they not have enough power.
Destandor have Magic Resistance (3). Also, should a spell directed at Destandor (or a unit he has joined) be dispelled, roll a D6. On a 5+, the wizard forgets that spell and cannot use it for the rest of the game.

Chaos Armour.

Special Rules:
The Will of Chaos
Eye of the Gods
Mark of Khorne
Mage Hunter:Destandor is forever on his quest to hunt down and entrap the magic so hated by his patron god. He hates all models capable of casting spells. In addition, as long as he is Frenzied he may not take a leadership test to prevent charging should he have the possibility to charge a spellcaster or a unit joined by one. Note also that he may not charge another unit instead of the spellcaster if he are within charging range of more than one.
Rendurok:Rendurok is a Juggernaut with +1 attack and the Impact Hits (D3) special rules.
How does this sound? i thought it would e fun to creat some personal rules for my Chaos Lord whom I am about to convert a model for, and as I as going to use parts from the new lord on manticore I thought the chains could add a nice twitch. I am not sure if his price is right, the Mage Hunter SR is both good and bad so maybe the cost should be just a tad lower. What do you say?

A normal Khorne Lord with axe of khorne, jugger and MR 3 is 365 points.

So for 25 points, you gain +1 to killing blow rolls, 5+ destroy spells, +1 jugger attack, D3 impact hits, Hate vs wizards; offset by must charge wizards.

IMO, he should be around 450-500 or so.

Or, make his axe +1 strength, and only killing blow vs wizards on a 5+ (no killing blow vs non-wizards), put him on a normal juggernaught, and call him 390.

Ah... Forgot to check how much MR(3) actually costed. You are probably right that his cost is too low. How does a cost of about 430 sound?

I think the spell destroy is pretty OP--and how do indirect spells work? Considering you can always get dispell scrolls and nothing stopping you from getting mages to help dispell. So it seems fairly likely every game he's going to be poofing spells, esp if he's in a deathstar and you got no one else to really cast against. If he had a corrollary where no mages could join his army and you couldn't purchase any kind of dispell ability I think it would be much fairer--but kind of convoluted. How about a simple, he confers a MR(1) on any unit he joins?

Otherwise I agree with Matt in that he's pretty cheap.

Make his hatred rule based off wizard level, not casting spells, because that can be a bit ambiguous.

DukeRustfield wrote:I think the spell destroy is pretty OP--and how do indirect spells work? Considering you can always get dispell scrolls and nothing stopping you from getting mages to help dispell. So it seems fairly likely every game he's going to be poofing spells, esp if he's in a deathstar and you got no one else to really cast against.

To be fair, it is not a that big chance the spell will be forgotten, but I suppose I could add that it doesn't come into effect when it is dispelled by a dispel scroll? Also, you have to take in mind the exitance the daemons Spell Destroyer and the common item Spellthieving sword, probably plus items I don't know about. And something worth noting, is that it can also make your own wizards forget spells, making it very risky using augments on him or his unit.

DukeRustfield wrote:If he had a corrollary where no mages could join his army and you couldn't purchase any kind of dispell ability I think it would be much fairer--but kind of convoluted. How about a simple, he confers a MR(1) on any unit he joins?

...B-but... That just doesn't fit...

DukeRustfield wrote:Otherwise I agree with Matt in that he's pretty cheap.

Make his hatred rule based off wizard level, not casting spells, because that can be a bit ambiguous.

Will do. Also note I came with a suggestion of a new price.

Edit: This is a new profile I made with some tips I gained on another forum, so here goes:

Destandor - 430 pts
M:4 WS:9 BS:3 S:5(6) T:5 W:3 I:7 A:5 Ld:9

Equipment:
Guilliotine (Magic Weapon)
This was the first and mightiest Axe of Khorne, forged in the pyre of a dead Daemon Prince of Khorne and quenched in said mans blood. It cuts of any victims head - especially wizards heads - as clean as its namesake, and also just as bloody.
This axe gives Destandor +1 Strength (included above) and the Killing Blow special rule. However, when rolling to wound against wizards, it instead gains the Heroic Killing Blow special rule.

Chains of the Spell Prison (Enchanted Item)
This cloak is made of several chains with their origin in the rumoured spell prison - a tomb where Khorne wishes to entrap all magic and then execute them, banishing all hated magic once and for all. They have a repellant effect on magic, and may also entrap spells completely should they not have enough power.
Destandor have Magic Resistance (3). Also, should a spell directed at Destandor (or a unit he has joined) be dispelled, roll a D6. On a 5+, the wizard forgets that spell and cannot use it for the rest of the game.

Chaos Armour.

Special Rules:
The Will of Chaos
Eye of the Gods
Mark of Khorne

Mage Hunter: Destandors quest is to to hunt down and entrap the magic so hated by his patron god. He Hates all wizards. In addition, as long as he is Frenzied he may not take a leadership test to prevent charging should he have the possibility to charge a wizard or a unit joined by one. Note also that he may not charge another unit instead of the wizard (or its unit) if he are within charging range of more than one.

Rendurok: Rendurok is a Juggernaut with the Devastating Charge special rule. He also has +1 Strength the turn he charges.
______________________________
His axe now isn't as likely to Killing Blow things, but has the possibility to Killing Blow wizards of bigger size (Greater Daemons, Slann, Galrauch, etc) which fits very well with his fluff. The Juggernaut was also twitched a bit.

Spell destroyer costs 50 points and is a 1 use ability, so, one spell max per game. You're making an ability that triggers every time a spell is cast against him OR his unit and is dispelled. Unless you're fighting someone who is just irresistable forcing constatly, you're going to be dispelling stuff. You could potentially take away every spell a mage has--or even multiple mages.

..B-but... That just doesn't fit...

Which makes me think you're going to be using dispell scrolls and/or wizards to dispell. Which again, makes the above ability way too powerful. Everyone gets dispelled.

Likewise Spellthieving sword has to cause an usaved wound to the Wizard itself. Not a lot of Wizards go charging into melee. They're sitting in the back and avoid challenges, so the sword probably isn't taken very often.

So he can do more than the greatest Daemon anti-spelling gift. He can do it at range. He can protect his entire multi-hundred point unit. It's...pretty damn powerful and would make cheese games extremely easy to build. I would be extremely reluctant to play against it. A Chosen deathstar with him in it is nearly invulnerable. Enemy casters would have to throw max dice at like 1 spell to ensure it goes off and doesn't get erased.

I say make him more like a Skulltaker and be an individual. Unit wide spell destroyer is OP IMHO.

Ok.
How can he destroy(entrap) spells without it being overpowered?
Making it happen only on a 6?

Maybe not have him entrap the spell per se, but make it permenantly harder to cast. High Elves have Dispel Magic that can make things harder to cast, perhaps he can increase the required casting roll by D3 as he learns how the enemy wizards weaves the spell and can more effectively block or drain the winds of magic that are used to power it.

Either that, or after trapping a spell, he needs to roll a D6 at the start of every magic phase to represent how he's now drawing the winds of magic to him, and on the roll of a 1 he takes an auto-wound and the spell is released as the flow of magic overpowers him.

That said, there isn't a whole lot you can do, although I think Duke is making him out to be more powerful than he is. MR(3) isn't great, even for Deathstars who will be targeted by Dwellers, Pit, Gateway etc. None of those spells allow ward saves, so Magic Resistance is useless, unlike 7th where you'd simply get more DD. Unless the spell causes wounds and/or allows ward saves, MR won't matter.

There's also the fact that opponents regularly throw max dice at death-star killing spells anyway, the presence of this guy won't change that; with or without him, a Chosen death-star will be getting targeted by maxed out spells regardless.

Then you only have a 33.3% chance of the spell being erased; with the lowering to 6, that becomes a 16.7% chance, and unlike some other items (an Empire item, High Elf item etc.) it requires the spell to be dispelled beforehand, it doesn't act as a dispel scroll. Perhaps making it so that only spells dispelled with dice can be absored would be better, as dispel scrolls contain magic that either absorbs the spell themselves, or nullifies the power completely, leaving nothing for Destandor to take.

That would work of course, but I suppose I could point out that WoC (and most other armies too) can only take one dispel scroll whatsoever, so it wouldn't make that of a difference.

An idea I got that also could work was that instead of actually trapping the spells the chain cloak would drain the magic around him, which would work like this: MR(3). If an enemy wizard (or maybe it would work on myself too) are within X" of him in the beginning of their magic phase, they lose D3 power dice after rolling for power and dispel dice, and channeling. Also, once per game they may drain the magic in a spell completely, working just as Spell Destroyer.

Would that be better?

That said, there isn't a whole lot you can do, although I think Duke is making him out to be more powerful than he is. MR(3) isn't great

Then you only have a 33.3% chance of the spell being erased

I never said MR was great. Though MR3 is still pretty nice, considering it's better than a 450pt Bloodthirster or Archaon.

1 in 3 is damn awesome to lose a spell for the whole game. Esp. considering it has no limit on uses.

There's also the fact that opponents regularly throw max dice at death-star killing spells anyway, the presence of this guy won't change that; with or without him, a Chosen death-star will be getting targeted by maxed out spells regardless.

But you're missing a big point: they throw max dice at mega spells. But they can't merely just cast smaller spells anymore against the deathstar until he's gone. They still got a few dice left over or didn't use their mega spell because they don't want to IF explode but the enemy is sitting on dispell dice and/or dispell scroll. They can't cast their DD or Hex or whatever with just 2-3 dice because it will get dispelled and then a 1 in 3 it's gone.

A minus 1 to casting rolls within x" of him would be more in line. Look at an Exalted Lord of Change, -1 WS/BS within 12" on a 775 pt. model. Spealleater/Spellbreaker are ONE use items that cost 50. A permanent version is worth what, 150? And it's not so much costing it as recognizing it's too powerful for one non-grand army lord.

The minus powerdice is at least as powerful. The enemy only gets 2D6 PD a turn and you're taking D3? That's what, 29% of their PD every turn. That's like having an extra Runelord in your army--except instead of Dwarfs who can't use magic, you can also throw in a bunch of mages.

I just think it's a little overboard.

Though MR3 is still pretty nice, considering it's better than a 450pt Bloodthirster or Archaon

But yet easy to acquire for generic characters, with the new BRB magic items.

1 in 3 is damn awesome to lose a spell for the whole game. Esp. considering it has no limit on uses.

Would happening only on a 6 be better, or that it only happens when wizards don't succeed with using the spell?

That's like having an extra Runelord in your army--except instead of Dwarfs who can't use magic, you can also throw in a bunch of mages.

No, it's not since Destandor has to be withing range of the mage, and if you aren't careful he might drain your power pool too. But I suppose I could add in that rule you suggested earlier, that an army with Destandor cannot have wizards - though that is a huge nerf with the big part magic plays in 8th edition, so his cost would probably be lowered somewhat if so, or even something becoming better.

He's got a huge weakness.
He does nothing to spells that don't target him.
If somebody is running Lore of Light, and tossing out all those buffs, he just sits their and takes a beating as he faces the Double Move, Init 10, WS10, +1A ASF enemies.


-Matt

Uh, that's not a "weakness." He casts dispel like anyone else--i.e., everyone in the game has that exact same "huge weakness." And the vast majority of spell lists target the enemy as opposed to buff allies.

Spoke an hour ago to a guy who has lots of experience with developing rules that works, and he preferred the version where the winds of magic around Destandor are drained. Supposedly the rules for the chains would then either be
- When a wizard (friendly or enemy*) within 12/18" of Destandor casts a spell, the spell's casting value is heightened by 3/D3+1.

or

- When a wizard (friendly or enemy*) within 12/18" of Destandor casts a spell, the total of the casting will be lowered by 3/D3+1
and a Magic Resistance, which I am not decided on how much it should be, as MR(3) is very expensive.


*That is, if an army with Destandor is allowed to take wizards.

DukeRustfield wrote:Uh, that's not a "weakness." He casts dispel like anyone else--i.e., everyone in the game has that exact same "huge weakness." And the vast majority of spell lists target the enemy as opposed to buff allies.

At 450 points, you won't be getting him and a level 4 in most games.
His special ability only works against spells that target him.

You're using up your chances for a good dispel bonus, for the off chance that he takes out a spell.
Also, those spell destroying items you're quoting actually stop the spell. His spell destruction does not.
Going from dispelling a spell (dispel scroll) to dispelling and destroying (spell breaking) is only an increase of 25 points, spell destruction isn't all the hot.


-Matt

Single use vs. infinite use is very hot, however. I believe every destroy-o arcane is single use. He can basically remove every spell Khairos throws at him. It's unlikely, but there's a reason those items are single use.

A Spelleater Rune from Dwarfs is 50 points. It's a single use Dispel, can't stop IF, 50% chance of removal. This is MR3 (and thus his whole unit is MR3) and 33% of removal, infinite uses, may(?) block IF. I don't think there's any question it is vastly more powerful than the most powerful Dwarf anti-magic rune. MR3 alone costs 45 in a talisman. And I'd say a 50% dispel one use is roughly on par with a 33% inifinite use with no auto dispel. So basic mathhammer says that's about a 95 point item.

Haven't costed the whole unit, but he doesn't seem to have a lot of wiggle room. But moreover, I just think it would be too detrimental for pure magey armies.

To me, the biggest problem with the spell destroying ability is that it works best, or really only works at all, when a friendly mage is making dispells for you. A Khornate character shouldn't be getting a synergy bonus from having a mage around.


Perhaps instead of the character draining d3 magic dice, it reverses the effect of channelling? That is, instead of the mage drawing in more magic power and it being used to fuel spells from on his side, instead magic is sucked through the mage and into the prison, so any mage with 12" (18"?) rolls a 6 for chanelling, they lose a die instead of gaining one. This would work for both sides, meaning the WoC player would want to keep his own mages well away from Destandor.

DukeRustfield wrote:Single use vs. infinite use is very hot, however. I believe every destroy-o arcane is single use. He can basically remove every spell Khairos throws at him. It's unlikely, but there's a reason those items are single use.

A Spelleater Rune from Dwarfs is 50 points. It's a single use Dispel, can't stop IF, 50% chance of removal. This is MR3 (and thus his whole unit is MR3) and 33% of removal, infinite uses, may(?) block IF. I don't think there's any question it is vastly more powerful than the most powerful Dwarf anti-magic rune. MR3 alone costs 45 in a talisman. And I'd say a 50% dispel one use is roughly on par with a 33% inifinite use with no auto dispel. So basic mathhammer says that's about a 95 point item.

Haven't costed the whole unit, but he doesn't seem to have a lot of wiggle room. But moreover, I just think it would be too detrimental for pure magey armies.

The spell removal as written, only functions when the spell has been previously dispelled, and that targeted the character or his unit.
Destandor have Magic Resistance (3). Also, should a spell directed at Destandor (or a unit he has joined) be dispelled, roll a D6. On a 5+, the wizard forgets that spell and cannot use it for the rest of the game.
That means, it has no effect on IF. With IF the spell is not dispelled, and you have no chance at stopping it.
With the casting advantage going to the opponent, I don't think this spell destruction is that big of a deal.

I don't like the synergy of him in an army with lots of wizards. I like the idea of whatever power he ends up with affecting a larger area, but affecting both friendly and enemy wizards.
I was thinking -3 to cast, 24" range, any wizard who has his concentration broken takes a S4 hit; affects both friendly and enemy wizards.

-Matt

I like the idea of whatever power he ends up with affecting a larger area, but affecting both friendly and enemy wizards.
I was thinking -3 to cast, 24" range, any wizard who has his concentration broken takes a S4 hit; affects both friendly and enemy wizards.

Indeed, that was pretty much what I just wrote, apart from the S4 hit thing. He would then be a bit more of a stronger Standard of the Sundering with limited range and that affects friendly mages. I think that'd be pretty nifty and fluffy.

HawaiiMatt wrote:The spell removal as written, only functions when the spell has been previously dispelled, and that targeted the character or his unit.
Destandor have Magic Resistance (3). Also, should a spell directed at Destandor (or a unit he has joined) be dispelled, roll a D6. On a 5+, the wizard forgets that spell and cannot use it for the rest of the game.

Yeah, I think I was confusing it with the other thread, which is big on spell immunity. Everyone hates magic!

-3 to cast I think is a lot, because we still have spells in the game that are like 3+ (Ogres). Which would double their casting value. And lots of basic spells in the BRB are 5+. It's also basically taking 1 power die (short .5) away from every enemy cast. Though it's true it takes it away from yourself (if in range). You have a better ability to stay out of range.

-3 to cast I think is a lot, because we still have spells in the game that are like 3+ (Ogres).

Yeah, I wasn't sure about it being a fixed value, perhaps D3 or D3+1 is better?

D3+1 is still 3 average. I grabbed some of my old books and was looking at VC. Corpse Cart and Black Coach both have anti-spell stuff. Cart is -1 to enemy casting within 24 (or 18?) I think for 25pts. Coach can take an enemy PD if it's within 6" on a roll of 6. So not very likely, but it also has other abilities.

3 or D3 is just a lot, period. It's kind of like a reverse Slann bonus PD--they pay an average (it's a sliding scale) of 75 for that bonus and it only affects them. Yours affects multiple mages and then you're adding MR on top of it. If someone tries to cast 4 spells, that would be -12, which is like taking 3.4 power dice away, which is pretty damn much. 3 spells is still -9 or 2.7 dice away. We're talking Dwarf level anti-magic because of one guy.

Look at the VC book if you got it.

Bear in mind that this 'one guy' pretty much fills the expensive WoC Lord slots until around 3000pts, and outside of his abiltiies, cannot take the items Chaos Lords can, nor can he provide the spellpower Sorcerer Lords can. He has a 1+ armour save, but no Ward Save, so anything with ASF, I8+, and Ignores armour saves or reduces it to a suitably low point, will kill him, as will anything with Killing Blow.

He also suffers from being forced to accept challenges with these characters, and being cavalry, will not get a Look Out, Sir! against anything flying his way whilst he's in a unit that isn't Knights; 1 cannonball will see him off fairly easily.

This huge vulnerability means that if you're facing Khornate daemons, you might as well just not field him, as bloodletters will just pound him with Killing Blow attacks.

EDIT: Obviously you won't field him against Khornate Daeons anyway due to their lack of spells, but you get the idea.

Stop saying he has a huge vulnerability...

Teclis who can't cast spells has a huge vulnerability. A Slann who's lost his spells has a huge vulnerability. Because they don't do anything else.

He's still
WS9 S6 T5 W3 I7 A5(8 with jugg) with KB 33% Armor 1+

He can kill the face out of 90% of the guys out there other than the most purely focused melee combatants.

A Bloodthirster, not merely the champion of Khorne, but his actual shower buddy, is about identical in terms of pure killy power. The Bloodthirster has only a 5+ ward, which most times is gonna suck a lot harder than 1+ armor (which the BRB agrees, 2+ armor being worth 45 and 5+ ward being worth 30).

They are really pretty close with plusses and minuses on either side. But the Bloodthirster is 60 points more, doesn't convey unit-wide MR3 (cuz he can't join anything) and or the big spell crusher--the specifics of which keep changing.

DukeRustfield wrote:Stop saying he has a huge vulnerability...

No, because it's true.

Teclis who can't cast spells has a huge vulnerability. A Slann who's lost his spells has a huge vulnerability. Because they don't do anything else.

Teclis will be casting nearly every spell with IF, the ability only works with spells that are dispelled. You'll also have to capture 6 spells with a Slann (not many people, if any, will not give him loremaster), the chances of which are excpetionally low. You're also trying to use an invalid argument, based on Saint's latest suggested changes to just draining power.

I don't see how this ties in with your 'stop saying he has a huge vulnerability' point, because you've just proved that practically all wizards in the game have one in not being able to cast/losing spells; if that is a 'huge vulnerability', then why isn't an expensive character not having a ward save one? How many characters that cost ~450pts do not have a ward save, access to a ward save, or some form of subsitute for one?

He's still
WS9 S6 T5 W3 I7 A5(8 with jugg) with KB 33% Armor 1+

And anything with Heroic Killing Blow ignores his toughness and his armour save. He is also not KB 33% as of Saint's latest version. He's just simply KB against non-wizards now. Outside of that, those are the stats of a Chaos Lord with the Axe of Khorne, bar the extra points of WS. A Chaos Lord with the Axe of Khorne costs almost 200pts less than this guy, and has the exact same stats bar 1, which is only a minor difference against anything WS5 or greater, and means that WS4 hit on 5s, but anything taking him on will be WS5 or greater anyway. A Chaos Lord with the Axe of Khorne also has 55pts left to spend on getting a ward save.

A Khorne Lord with AoK and ToPres. on a Juggernaut is 365pts, and lacks only Devestating Charge, the MR(3) unless granted by a roll of 8 on the EotG table, and the spell dirsuption. Destandor is paying 65pts for MR(3) (which on a Slann is only worth 50pts) and reducing a spell's casting value by D3+1, an ability which High Elves get on their High Magic mages for free, and has a static reduction of 3; the HE effect is a spell, but it's a low casting value of 7+, and is cumulative. If I had a choice, i'd take the Khorne Lord, simply because he's a hell of a lot more surviviable (spells that are affected by MR will usually disallow ward saves, ask for ward saves to be re-rolled, or not be strong enough to do much damage) because he has the same AS, but also a 4+ ward save.

He can kill the face out of 90% of the guys out there other than the most purely focused melee combatants.

92% of all percentages are made up on the spot. He can't kill the face out of a cannonball that's just smashed his, although my Khorne Lord set-up has a 50% chance of not caring about it. My Khorne Lord has a 50% chance of surviving a HKB, Destandor dies instantly. A Chaos Lord with the Axe of Khorne and Helm of Many Eyes, a High Elf noble or Prince mounted on anything with the Star Lance, anything with decent strength and initiative that ignores armour saves, anything sturdy enough to strike back with something that ignores armour saves, going up against an enemy with the Lore of Light (Lizardmen, for example; a Scar Veteran or Oldblood with the burning blade of chotec and the bane head, or an oldblood with Blade of Revered Tzunki and the bane head (or even just the blade) that is affected by the Lore of Light).

You could argue that all of these are some of the most purely focussed melee characters, but they're also exceptionally common builds. Sure you can kill an Empire Captain in combat, but how many people have an empire captain tooled for that? A lot of people will have WoC, HE, LM, DE, Ogre etc. etc. heroes and lords built for combat, and when they find out you don't have a ward save, they'll be on you very quickly, even if it's a suicide charge just for a challenge that Destandor is forced to accept by his rules.

A Bloodthirster, not merely the champion of Khorne, but his actual shower buddy, is about identical in terms of pure killy power. The Bloodthirster has only a 5+ ward, which most times is gonna suck a lot harder than 1+ armor (which the BRB agrees, 2+ armor being worth 45 and 5+ ward being worth 30).

The Bloodthirster, however, is 1 point tougher, 1 pt higher WS, 2pts higher I, terror causing, and can take upgrades to make magic weapons lose their magical ability (such as any of the aforementioned 'ignores armour saves' weapons losing that ability) and have a 3+ AS at the same time, ignore armour saves themselves... Cannons blow through them all the same though. Whilst a 5+ Ward Save may only be low, it's still a 33% chance of ignoring most things that hit you; Destandor has a 0% chance of doing that against anything that bypasses his armour.

They are really pretty close with plusses and minuses on either side. But the Bloodthirster is 60 points more, doesn't convey unit-wide MR3 (cuz he can't join anything) and or the big spell crusher--the specifics of which keep changing.

20pts more, has access to a myriad of gifts as well as a spell-destruction gift that automatically dispels the spell to boot and does it on a 4+ instead of a 5+. The specifics of Destandor's ability keep changing (evolving would be a better word, as it implies progress) as you say, but you seem intent on bringing up the redundant effect of destroying the spell. He doesn't have that any more as of the discussion Saint is trying to have about making the spell harder to cast instead, and ability that is significantly less powerful; so less that High Elf High Mages can increase casting values on all spells board-wide by 3 for 7+ to cast.

EDIT: Adding 'Heroic' to Killing Blow references, see why below.

Avatar 720 wrote:He also suffers from being forced to accept challenges with these characters, and being cavalry, will not get a Look Out, Sir! against anything flying his way whilst he's in a unit that isn't Knights; 1 cannonball will see him off fairly easily.

All that means is he's almost certainly going to get deployed in a unit of knights...

Avatar 720 wrote:And anything with Killing Blow ignores his toughness and his armour save.

Oh, noze!

The shark has been jumped.

sebster wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:He also suffers from being forced to accept challenges with these characters, and being cavalry, will not get a Look Out, Sir! against anything flying his way whilst he's in a unit that isn't Knights; 1 cannonball will see him off fairly easily.

All that means is he's almost certainly going to get deployed in a unit of knights...

Which still doesn't matter since he counts as monstrous cavalry. Frankly, from what Avatar says he's starting to feel overpriced, at least in his latest version. Suppose I could change his magic resistance to a usual ward save, that would make him much more survivable, or if I put a spell destroyer in the chains (1UO) which would make him more anti-magic but still as vulnerable to the certain things Avatar points out.


But what has the shark to do with this?

I believe the shark represents my argument begininning to decline in quality, since that's what 'Jumping the Shark' normally refers to; the section he quoted leads me to believe that he has assumed I meant 'Killing Blow', which cannot be used against Monsterous Cavalry such as Destandor, however that would in itself would be ignoring the possibility that I assumed mentioning 'Killing Blow' against a model that is Monsterous Cavalry would automatically be assumed to mean 'Heroic Killing Blow'.

Apparently, it was wrong me of me to judge some people as being capable of adding the 'Heroic' bit themselves.

EDIT: The HKB bit doesn't change the fact that the lack of ward save still hamstrings him badly, as shown by the sheer number of things that can simply ignore his armour, something your reply failed to reference, and instead just relied upon picking one sentence to the exclusion of all else and basing a childish 'This bit is wrong, your argument is invalid' statement off it.

Avatar 720 wrote:EDIT: The HKB bit doesn't change the fact that the lack of ward save still hamstrings him badly, as shown by the sheer number of things that can simply ignore his armour, something your reply failed to reference, and instead just relied upon picking one sentence to the exclusion of all else and basing a childish 'This bit is wrong, your argument is invalid' statement off it.

So a simple correction is childish? And also, was my reply really failing to reference to the fact that the lack of a ward save makes him more vulnerable? After the correction, I feel that what I wrote there is pretty much that...