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With Mech Guard you can kill a lot of things very easily.

Melta Veterans and Vendettas murder tanks.

The abundance of heavy flamers can burn hordes down.

Hydras can handle skimmers very well.

Elite units such as Terminators are easily taken out with Meltavets and Russes.

BUT, how can Mech Guard deal with static anti-tank squads such as Long Fangs, Devastators, IG HWS and the like when they are deployed in cover? I have tried torrenting them down with mass multilaser fire but its not that effective. 4+ cover effectively halves the effectiveness of Russes.

So I'm wondering, how do you deal with them?

I have always enjoyed using colussus` out of LOS. Then again, I have always enjoyed using collussi at any and every opportunity with my guard.

Back-of-the-board heavies in cover are always tricky - whether they're Long Fangs, Devastators or that pesky Black Rage-suffering BA scout squad on an objective, your best bet is still high rate-of-fire.

With Multilasers you're averaging one kill to just over six shots, but at that range it's some of the best odds you can get with Mech Guard for the first couple of turns. Put pie-plates on them if you can spare them because anti-armour is not your friend.

Has anyone considered adding Heavy Bolters to the Vendetta to help kill Long Fangs and the like? Just a thought.

Also, Hydras might be useful for this, they could possible be used to take out heavies in cover. The only bad point is that the anti-tank potential is being wasted.

Colossus are effective, no doubt about it though. Its just that my HS choices have been used for Russes and Hydras.

DS stormtroopers with flamers? Either that or vendetta/valk anti inf, or scout sentinals with HFlamers. Ideally though, if you're running vets in chimearas they should have hull heavy flamers and MLasers, so just boost forwards and loose.

Did you think about deepstriking 5-man stormtrooper units? A little over a hundred points for a unit with 2 melta or plasma, they get a reroll on their deepstrike, and they don't compete with heavies for slots.

A couple of these units dropping in rapid-fire range of one of these tiny enemy fire support units would probably kill a model or two on the drop (which is significant for units that are usually only 5-6 models) and then after that, your opponent has to stop shooting or send something to deal with the stormtroopers or they can keep blasting away.

And in games where you're not looking at long fangs or devs, they can drop or outflank and kill tanks with melta shots to side/rear armor.

A really nice way to get rid of support units like long fangs is to use psyker battle squads.

Leadership 2 combined with enough firepower to make them take a morale is quite bad for those units.

Making long fangs fall back often forces them back over their own table edge. Even if they don't run off the table they have left an optimal firing position and as such is not able to shoot very effectively in the following turn(s).

Main problem with Storm Troopers is their point cost. For those two MG and 5man squad your looking at 105, and another 10 if you want plasma. Anything less of PG or MG Storm Troopers IMO is a waste of points.

Doing some math:

5man ST Squad with 2 PG:

6 St3 6*.66*.33*.5=.65 dead Marines
4 St7 4*.66*.83*.5=1.09 dead Marines
2 St8 2*.66*.83*.5=.55 dead Marines

So for 115 points you are able to kill 2 Marines and then die to return fire. For 105 you get 1 dead marine.

As to what I would do about them? Well it depends on how much % of the force they are. Sure those 4 ML/LC a turn hurt, but if that is all that is left on the table, you should be able to pull off a win. What are they shooting at? Can you screen it with a building or a Russ? The most effective way to get rid of them would be a Banewolf, for 145 points you get a Chem Cannon/Multi Melta Banewolf that will either soak fire or roast all pesky units in cover (if it can get there) or for 5 points less you can get a Collossus which will do the same (if you can zero in on their location with an artillery dice). Either way, my approach to stuff like that is drop pie plates on them, a Manticore with a lucky 3 shots in one turn could potencially get 15 wounds on them. Sure you they get their armor save but 15*.83*.33= 4 dead marines. Thats as good as its going to get honestly.

Heimer wrote:A really nice way to get rid of support units like long fangs is to use psyker battle squads.

Leadership 2 combined with enough firepower to make them take a morale is quite bad for those units.

Making long fangs fall back often forces them back over their own table edge. Even if they don't run off the table they have left an optimal firing position and as such is not able to shoot very effectively in the following turn(s).

That's a nice trick but I don't think it will work on the marines. Aren't they all stubborn, or am I thinking of a previous edition? Also, even if they fall back for one turn, they automatically regroup because of ATSKNF. So, forget about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jereziah wrote:
Has anyone considered adding Heavy Bolters to the Vendetta to help kill Long Fangs and the like? Just a thought.

Also, Hydras might be useful for this, they could possible be used to take out heavies in cover. The only bad point is that the anti-tank potential is being wasted.

Colossus are effective, no doubt about it though. Its just that my HS choices have been used for Russes and Hydras.

After the hydras pop light vehicles and speed-cover units, they will need new targets. It is ok to redirect them to heavies then.

HB on vendettas seem like a waste to me, although they are pretty cheap. They will not be useful against the vendetta's primary targets, which is tanks. And, they are not TL, so you may get 3 hits per turn, so 2 wounds, so less than one dead heavy on average. Against HWS, not even that.

Why do you need LR if you are running the chimera vet spam? What can the LR do that the colossi cannot in this build? They fire the same AP3 large pies, but colossi do it from BLOS and ignore cover. Heavies are one T4 wound each or two T3 wounds each, so S8 and S6 have the same effects on both. LR has the Av14 but AV does not matter when you can fire from behind a big BLOS rock. LR can be used in AT role, in which it has effective BS2. LR can subtract BS3 from the scatter, but it needs LOS and must show itself. Overall, in this army I see no point to the LRs that colossi cannot provide equally or better.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Heimer wrote:A really nice way to get rid of support units like long fangs is to use psyker battle squads.

Leadership 2 combined with enough firepower to make them take a morale is quite bad for those units.

Making long fangs fall back often forces them back over their own table edge. Even if they don't run off the table they have left an optimal firing position and as such is not able to shoot very effectively in the following turn(s).

That's a nice trick but I don't think it will work on the marines. Aren't they all stubborn, or am I thinking of a previous edition? Also, even if they fall back for one turn, they automatically regroup because of ATSKNF. So, forget about it.

ATSKNF=auto regroup if no enemy is within 6". Marbo, outflanking penal legion, or a flat out move with a Valk or Vendetta can place a unit within 6" of where they will be. After they fail their morale test and fall back 2D6" they will then fall back another 2D6" on their turn, and in a pitched battle or dawn of war deployment that should knock them off the table edge.

The other option is to knock them out of area terrain with the PBS, let them regroup, and hit them with an AP3 pie while they are out in the open on the next turn.

Grix wrote:Main problem with Storm Troopers is their point cost. For those two MG and 5man squad your looking at 105, and another 10 if you want plasma. Anything less of PG or MG Storm Troopers IMO is a waste of points.

Doing some math:

5man ST Squad with 2 PG:

6 St3 6*.66*.33*.5=.65 dead Marines
4 St7 4*.66*.83*.5=1.09 dead Marines
2 St8 2*.66*.83*.5=.55 dead Marines

So for 115 points you are able to kill 2 Marines and then die to return fire. For 105 you get 1 dead marine.

As to what I would do about them? Well it depends on how much % of the force they are. Sure those 4 ML/LC a turn hurt, but if that is all that is left on the table, you should be able to pull off a win. What are they shooting at? Can you screen it with a building or a Russ? The most effective way to get rid of them would be a Banewolf, for 145 points you get a Chem Cannon/Multi Melta Banewolf that will either soak fire or roast all pesky units in cover (if it can get there) or for 5 points less you can get a Collossus which will do the same (if you can zero in on their location with an artillery dice). Either way, my approach to stuff like that is drop pie plates on them, a Manticore with a lucky 3 shots in one turn could potencially get 15 wounds on them. Sure you they get their armor save but 15*.83*.33= 4 dead marines. Thats as good as its going to get honestly.

I think you actually want the meltaguns in this situation, because this is an all-comers type list, and with meltaguns they're an antitank unit.

Yeah they only kill about one marine on the drop, but it's not about making points back by killing things. It's about the disruption effect.

What return fire are the stormtroopers dying to? Typically the rest of the space wolf army has rolled up in their rhinos and left the long fangs behind, so are the long fangs taking a turn to shoot at stormtroopers with krak missiles? (Thanks for wasting a turn of fire on my 105 point unit). Or is the rest of the space wolf army turning around or slowing down to come back and shoot them with boltguns or heavy bolters? Or does a speeder get pulled off its primary mission to try come and heavy flame them?

I've had dropping stormtroopers walk along 6" right behind a huge nob biker unit plinking away every turn with meltaguns because the Ork player didn't want to turn back and attack them and didn't have anything else in position to deal with them. It's about putting them in a spot where they disrupt what your opponent wants to do.

I guess also Marbo can do the same thing for a little cheaper.

If you're planning to win games by killing stuff, then by all means invest in more artillery. But if you're planning to win games by maneuver & movement, then units with deployment options are worthwhile.

schadenfreude wrote:

ATSKNF=auto regroup if no enemy is within 6". Marbo, outflanking penal legion, or a flat out move with a Valk or Vendetta can place a unit within 6" of where they will be. After they fail their morale test and fall back 2D6" they will then fall back another 2D6" on their turn, and in a pitched battle or dawn of war deployment that should knock them off the table edge.

Good point. But if you have Marbo or penal legion close by, you probably do not want to fire large scattering pies nearby, and you have somebody to engage the heavies. Especially true if the penal legion rolls knife fighters.

The other option is to knock them out of area terrain with the PBS, let them regroup, and hit them with an AP3 pie while they are out in the open on the next turn.

The PBS only lowers their leadership - it does not make them run. You still have to shoot them after the Ld is dropped. At that point, a smart player will go to ground to get extra cover. Then they get 3+ cover, which again means you need colossi. Also, it is not clear to me if they are forced to fall back if they have already gone to ground and suffer casualties that require a check. My understanding is that once they go to ground, that's it, they are stuck and lose a turn, but that is still the better alternative than falling back into open ground and still losing the turn and possibly walking off the edge. So, bottom line, a smart player will react well to the PBS.

Playing Ig you have some lovely choices to deal with those Long Fangs.

Mortar Teams (allot of people dont like them but i absolutely love the things)
Colossus (can hide behind terrain and rain death)
Basilisk (same as Colossus)
Medusa (same as colosus, just less range unfortunately)
Deathsrike Missile (a dodgy, unreliable choice but great if it works)
Manticore (my personal favorite artillery, and besides who doesn't love to let loose multiple large blast each turn?)

or you could always do the unconventional thing and outflank a squad of Ogryns with Lord Commisar via CREEEED!!! and run at the long fangs.

Tazz Azrael wrote:Playing Ig you have some lovely choices to deal with those Long Fangs.

Mortar Teams (allot of people dont like them but i absolutely love the things)

The common dislike is objectively based. That is, most IG commanders hate them because they are not good in practice. They are a great idea and in the real world have been and are deadly. But in 40k, with all that cover and scatter, they are not a good choice. They will likely scatter off a heavy squad and even if they don't, they will hit two models in cover. So, hit 1 in 3, wound 1 in 2, dodge cover 1 in 2 or dodge 3+ save on 1 in 3. So, against devs in cover, 1 in 9 expectation, or 0.33 dead devs per turn from a battery (HWS). That is silly.

Colossus (can hide behind terrain and rain death)

hell yes.

Basilisk (same as Colossus)
Medusa (same as colosus, just less range unfortunately)
Deathsrike Missile (a dodgy, unreliable choice but great if it works)
Manticore (my personal favorite artillery, and besides who doesn't love to let loose multiple large blast each turn?)

Sorry, no. Basilisk has minimal indirect range of 36" and does not ignore cover. Medusa only fires directly and at lower range for the large pie. DSM is a joke in a standard game. Manticores are AP4 and do not ignore cover, so firing the S10 on devs is a colossal waste.

or you could always do the unconventional thing and outflank a squad of Ogryns with Lord Commisar via CREEEED!!! and run at the long fangs.

I used to run that in my fluffy list. The chimera gets popped much too soon, then you are left with the ogryns slogging across the board and getting boltered to death. Even if they reach, the ogryn got no power weapons, so 2/3 of the wounds bounce off the power armor. The commissar usually has a powerfist and knows how to use it, but he usually gets singled out as IC and often killed before he swings because of his T3 and just 5++. So, again, no in practice.

Colossus seems to be the best option but I just don't have the models. Can anyone direct me to a Colossus conversion guide or something similar?

I have used Storm Troopers before but never like this, will have to try it out. What do you think of this set up?

Storm Trooper Squad : 125
Plasma Pistol
Plasma Gun x 2

Cheap and quite powerful, it can put out 5 BS4 Plasma and 4 BS4 Hotshot Lasguns shots. This could be effective against heavies in cover.

Jereziah wrote:Colossus seems to be the best option but I just don't have the models. Can anyone direct me to a Colossus conversion guide or something similar?

I have used Storm Troopers before but never like this, will have to try it out. What do you think of this set up?

Storm Trooper Squad : 125
Plasma Pistol
Plasma Gun x 2

Cheap and quite powerful, it can put out 5 BS4 Plasma and 4 BS4 Hotshot Lasguns shots. This could be effective against heavies in cover.

just my style, but i probably drop the PP. and don't underestimate Marbo as well.

Jereziah wrote:Colossus seems to be the best option but I just don't have the models. Can anyone direct me to a Colossus conversion guide or something similar?

A simple conversion is to build a basilisk, cut the barrel at the expansion halfway along the length, and glue the muzzle break from an eradicator cannon from the LR kit. Nobody uses eradicators, so might just as well make use of the barrel. You can also cut the shield to make it look more like the FW model.

Also, do you really have to have the models to field them? Why not use basilisk proxies? The basilisk is an awesome model and I have never seen people complain about such close and logical substitutions.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

Jereziah wrote:Colossus seems to be the best option but I just don't have the models. Can anyone direct me to a Colossus conversion guide or something similar?

A simple conversion is to build a basilisk, cut the barrel at the expansion halfway along the length, and glue the muzzle break from an eradicator cannon from the LR kit. Nobody uses eradicators, so might just as well make use of the barrel. You can also cut the shield to make it look more like the FW model.

Also, do you really have to have the models to field them? Why not use basilisk proxies? The basilisk is an awesome model and I have never seen people complain about such close and logical substitutions.

Hmm, I think I'll get some Basilisk models and use them at Colossus

Would it be usable in tournaments though?

Necrontyr40k wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:

ATSKNF=auto regroup if no enemy is within 6". Marbo, outflanking penal legion, or a flat out move with a Valk or Vendetta can place a unit within 6" of where they will be. After they fail their morale test and fall back 2D6" they will then fall back another 2D6" on their turn, and in a pitched battle or dawn of war deployment that should knock them off the table edge.

Good point. But if you have Marbo or penal legion close by, you probably do not want to fire large scattering pies nearby, and you have somebody to engage the heavies. Especially true if the penal legion rolls knife fighters.

The other option is to knock them out of area terrain with the PBS, let them regroup, and hit them with an AP3 pie while they are out in the open on the next turn.

The PBS only lowers their leadership - it does not make them run. You still have to shoot them after the Ld is dropped. At that point, a smart player will go to ground to get extra cover. Then they get 3+ cover, which again means you need colossi. Also, it is not clear to me if they are forced to fall back if they have already gone to ground and suffer casualties that require a check. My understanding is that once they go to ground, that's it, they are stuck and lose a turn, but that is still the better alternative than falling back into open ground and still losing the turn and possibly walking off the edge. So, bottom line, a smart player will react well to the PBS.

Squads auto unpin as soon as they fail morale or fall back, it is a huge perk with combat tactics.

An IG PBS squad can wait until a squad takes 25% casualties, and then use weaken resolve to drop their leadership. Morale tests for taking 25% are not taken until the end of the shooting phase after the shooting player declares he has no more shooting left to do. They don't autokill long fangs, but in most deployments when combines with a fast unit such as a vendetta or the squad in a vendetta they do reduce the # of meq that need to be killed while in cover from 6 to 2.

Marbo can be a good shot if they are in cover pop up in it to and bomb them they get no cover saves.

My mech guard army fields 3 leman russ with many heavy bolters and 2 plasma cannons. Dump in cover if possible but even without these tend to be able to counter them quite fast. I also take 2 scout sentinel squads.. If the fangs are on the edge of the board outflank and charge them they will most likely never be able to destroy a whole squad of sentinels in combat.

Truffle wrote:Marbo can be a good shot if they are in cover pop up in it to and bomb them they get no cover saves.

My mech guard army fields 3 leman russ with many heavy bolters and 2 plasma cannons. Dump in cover if possible but even without these tend to be able to counter them quite fast. I also take 2 scout sentinel squads.. If the fangs are on the edge of the board outflank and charge them they will most likely never be able to destroy a whole squad of sentinels in combat.

Marbo has a demolition charge, which does not ignore cover. Why would he ignore their cover save?

All those LR shots still do not ignore cover. Devs are usually in cover (4+) and if there is a thunderfire cannon, the techmarine will reinforce the cover to 3+.

Scout sentinels can take the heavy flamers, which will ignore cover, but not dev's armor save which is better anyway. Also, scout sentinels have WS3 and Av10, so 5 devs will hit on 3+ with 5 attacks, or 3 hits on average glancing on 6, so better than 50% chance for a glance. If they have krak grenades, they glance on 4 and pen on 5 and 6, so roughly one pen, and maybe one glance per turn. Havocs have krak as standard equipment. So, in a couple of combat phases, the sentinel will be dead. It likely will not kill a dev - S5 and no DCCW. To be more effective in tying down the devs, you need to take 2, but then you are already 80 pts and 1 KP in. And all of this assumes the devs will be within 12 inches from the correct edge, or they will simply turn around and blow up the sentinels in one turn. So, interesting idea but in reality it does not work.

Good luck with the Colossus; I can never hit anything with the thing, but if you have the luck or skillz with the scatter die, than it can be effective.

Personally, I would use DS'ing Stormies, as has been suggested. Other than that, we don't have a lot of options besides plinking away with Multilasers and the like at range.

I'm another advocate of the DS-ing ST with plasma guns. Most armies choose to leave their long range shooters relatively undefended.

Espescially against IG, not many people expect Deep Striking from small squads of troops. If they see a vehicle parking lot, they're likely going to go for an advance on all fronts rather than try to sit back and baby sit their long range AT.

The demo charge would ignor cover if you were also in the cover and as a rule the scout sentinels would hold them up for most of a game if not kill them which is good enough.

But what do I know only been playing guard for 12 years and regular fights against a long fang heavy mates army.....

Have you tried the Hellhound variat that's AP3?Or any Hellhound variant?

Honestly without tailoring your list your options are limited. Obviously the best choice is the colossus, but it'll be wasted against anyone else. my 1850 list is:
Command squad
-4 Meltas, Chimera

2 Platoon command squads
-each has 2 flamers, 1 autocannon, chimera

8 Infantry squads
-each has 1 flamer, 1 autocannon, chimera

2 Devil dogs

Medusa

Manticore

The autocannons take care of backfield units generally.

Truffle wrote:The demo charge would ignor cover if you were also in the cover

Where's that in the rulebook?

Truffle wrote:The demo charge would ignor cover if you were also in the cover

I think this is an old 4th edition rule.

In 5th edition, a target unit in area terrain gets a cover save regardless of where the shot is coming from.

Jereziah wrote:BUT, how can Mech Guard deal with static anti-tank squads such as Long Fangs, Devastators, IG HWS and the like when they are deployed in cover?

PBS were mentioned; with one of those you only need to inflct two casualties (usually) to make the squad run off the table.

How about using your mobility? Part of the point of being mechanized is that your stuff can move & fire. If you are playing with adequate terrain on the table, some areas should have LOS blocked, and you should be able to use this with good deployment and careful movement to focus on part of his army while denying targets to at least some of these long-range static heavy weapons.

Cities of Death ruins this though.

Deadshot wrote:Cities of Death ruins this though.

Unless you play Cities of Death games a lot more than regular 40k, that's a non-issue.