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Hey everyone, this is officially my first post on DakkaDakka and I figured I may as well jump in with the big question. Enter with a big bang I 'spose.

I know that the mere mention of female space marines provokes nerd-rage and indignant fury from certain sects of 40k fandom so I'd like to keep this as civil as possible . Now that the pacifying soapbox is out of the way..

I'm considering running a game of Deathwatch for our local gaming group, and I would like to make a "Rogue" (as opposed to Chaos) space marine chapter as a recurring antagonist. The twist of course as you may have guessed is that this chapter is all female. I'm aware that GW does say "There are no female space marines" and "The gene-seed process does not work on females". That said, many space marine chapters have been subjected to mutations.

The back-story of this ill-fated and now rogue chapter is that for one reason or another, after founding the chapter's gene-seed became very vulnerable to mutation. About 4 centuries before the campaign begins, the chapter was stranded behind on an inhospitable feral world populated by giant dangerous beasts and tribes of humanity. This wouldn't be much of a problem if they didn't wind up behind a warp storm. During the storm, two things occurred. Firstly, their Psykers fell prey to a strange ailment that eventually killed off not only their Astropaths and Navigator but the Librarians of the chapter as well. This ensured that even when the warp-storm passed, no communication could be restored with the Imperium. Secondly over the centuries their gene-seed acquired a strange mutation that transformed their new initiates into females as part of the implementation process, although said implementation still only works on males in the first place. Faith could only abide so long, as eventually the young women of the chapter began to resent the Imperium. There was a revolt, and eventually the women rose to the top of the chapter driving those few men loyal to the Imperium out of their midst. As fate would have it, shortly thereafter a Tau scout-ship was attracted to the planet. These women took the vessel and struck out into the stars.

I'm not asking this to provoke anger or troll anybody, but is this idea of a crew of all-female-space-pirate-space-marines...in space "Realistic" enough for 40k? I await the forum's mature and well considered response.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Erm... there seems to be some sort of forum bug. I did not mean to post this thread twice...

That'll teach me to use the back button on my web-browser...

1) Mature responses? On the internet? That's funny.
2) As much as I loath the idea of FSM, your idea actually makes sense.

coolyo294 wrote:1) Mature responses? On the internet? That's funny.

Female Space Marines...



Now try planning a campaign with that in your head. Bleh!

I'm gonna swallow my bile and try to post a reasonable response lol.

I just find the idea of geneseed causing sex change to be . . . well way beyond weird. Could I suggest that instead of that, the chapter was just driven to desperation and started implanting geneseed in female candidates, executing all those who objected? I can't imagine the reaction of a feral, rising alpha male, when he suddenly discovers he has bewbs. Probably more horrifying than being entombed in a dreadnought.

rabidaskal wrote:I'm gonna swallow my bile and try to post a reasonable response lol.

I just find the idea of geneseed causing sex change to be . . . well way beyond weird. Could I suggest that instead of that, the chapter was just driven to desperation and started implanting geneseed in female candidates, executing all those who objected? I can't imagine the reaction of a feral, rising alpha male, when he suddenly discovers he has bewbs. Probably more horrifying than being entombed in a dreadnought.

That horror is actually part of their character, they may be big-super-muscled amazons in power armor but do remember you start being implemented with space marine organs at *TEN*. The psychological implications of going through a sort of "double-wrong" puberty would cause these *ahem* ladies to overcompensate. Especially without psykers to hypno-theropy you into just rolling with it.

This is heretical even for a chaos servant! But my Ero side says go for it You can also say that Tzeentch and Slannesh decide to team up for this project. Lord of Change + Lord of Naughty Naughty = rogue female space marines Even Tzeentch alone is enough. Say that this is his way of having fun.

No.

Gene-seed wouldn't change someone's sex, even with mutations involved.

This is just another exercise in "I want to play Space Marines, but I don't want them to be men!".

They're called Battle-Brothers. Not Battle-Persons. Marines are and always will be(until GW decides to alter the canon otherwise, which I don't see happening) male.

If you want women in power armor, come up with a better situation than "Mutation=transvestites in Power Armor!".

Kanluwen wrote:No.

Gene-seed wouldn't change someone's sex, even with mutations involved.

This is just another exercise in "I want to play Space Marines, but I don't want them to be men!".

They're called Battle-Brothers. Not Battle-Persons. Marines are and always will be(until GW decides to alter the canon otherwise, which I don't see happening) male.

If you want women in power armor, come up with a better situation than "Mutation=transvestites in Power Armor!".

Do remember, I'm not running this in a full wargame I'm running them as antagonists in deathwatch. They'd be physical equals to Loyalist space marines, and have (albeit poorly maintained) power armor and some stolen xeno-tech. That said they also wouldn't be driven to the extreme nearly blind tactics of chaos marines and have room to be clever with how they oppose anyone that stands in their way. I'm not even saying there'd be very many of them, in all likelyhood there's probably only 200 or so in the entire galaxy.

The female aspect is to mark them in all the player's minds that this is a "New" threat. Something that is out-of-the-ordinary, and unpredictable as it simply has never been seen before. It's to make the players second guess themselves. If I could make that sentiment convey effectively by making them green-skinned-four-eyed space marines I would, but I'd like to use this campaign to make my players think about things like gender and racial issues in the greater context of the science-fiction universe that is 40k.

I'm sorry but what?
"Gender and racial issues in the greater context of the science-fiction universe that is 40k"?

You realize that there's not some kind of misogynistic bend, women aren't "kept down" or anything of that nature. They just aren't in the Space Marines because the Emperor distinctly wanted his Angels of Death to be male.

There's also no "race" issues in 40k like you seem to think.

Everyone serves the Emperor.

These threads typically don't end well.

Actually, they usually don't start well either.

This one's on a short leash.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm sorry but what?
"Gender and racial issues in the greater context of the science-fiction universe that is 40k"?

You realize that there's not some kind of misogynistic bend, women aren't "kept down" or anything of that nature. They just aren't in the Space Marines because the Emperor distinctly wanted his Angels of Death to be male.

There's also no "race" issues in 40k like you seem to think.

Everyone serves the Emperor.

That's just it, this is taking place outside the emperor's purview. These are *not* his angels of death and if they have their way they never will be. They're essentially space-pirates. Rebels with self-replicating (albeit 2 at a time) genetic modification toys. And even if everyone serves the emperor, mutants are still ostricised very heavily. Being mutants and women in "Non-womanly roles" I believe this fits both gender and racial issues.

I don't like the idea of female space marines, but I see no reason for it to be a topic that brings up so much anger and annoyance.

I would say that mutation would be a bad way to go. A complete sex-change through mutation?? Really? That is a bit intense.

I would do one of two things, either the marines were forced to use women instead of males due to a genetic mutation in the men upon the planet that made them unfit for the genetic alterations needed to become marines (or something similar to that), or some sort of twisted chaos plot that made the chapter go against the emperor and create female marines.

mutations though are just "smallish" alterations of a normal human: bug-eyes, tecticals, horns, etc. A full sex change seems a bit much for a mutation.

I've got an idea.

Instead of female shpess mahreens, make them horribly mutated genetic experiments that happen to have some memory of their previous lives, somewhat like the the 'Unfleshed' in the Ultramarines novels.

Make them antagonistic, but at the same time make it difficult for your players to simply roflstomp their way through them by making them realize they're killing a tribe of women.

Better yet, make them kids.

Alright, thanks for all the wonderful feedback on both sides of the debate. I have evil plans for my deathwatch group.

And now I'm ducking out before any real flack begins to fly. I may check up on this thread after a while to see if it's still up. I do want to say, I did kinda anticipate nerd-rage and flaming to start right away.

Thank you all for remaining civil for the half hour I was posting here, I'm very impressed with the maturity of this community and I hope to be part of it for a long time to come.

gruegirl wrote:Alright, thanks for all the wonderful feedback on both sides of the debate. I have evil plans for my deathwatch group.

And now I'm ducking out before any real flack begins to fly. I may check up on this thread after a while to see if it's still up. I do want to say, I did kinda anticipate nerd-rage and flaming to start right away.

Thank you all for remaining civil for the half hour I was posting here, I'm very impressed with this community and I hope to be part of it for a long time to come.

So, basically you're the evil genius who creates a monster, lets it loose in the village below your mountaintop lair, then cackles wildly from afar as it destroys everything we know and love?

That's... *sniffle* so beautiful!

On the logical and Negative side.
I think the key ingredient to this not making sense is the hormones involved in defining the difference between male and female. This is not being sexist this is being logical. It has been said for decades now in the fluff to explain why Space Marines are only male. Testosterone. The female body does not have enough Testosterone in it to make use of the surgical procedures and organs being placed inside of it to keep them running. Which is why the sisters of battle are not slathered in muscle but have the same equipment on a smaller scale. Now also keep in mind that initiates are not chosen as nerdy baby men they're already mostly(and i mean mostly not all dependent on which chapter we are talking about) killers or absurdly in shape males on their current home worlds when they are found by the chapter in which they are inducted in. Now if you are wanting to say that some warp storm has killed off their librarians and reverted the initiates to being females, you are free to do so. If you are the GM of Deathwatch your word is the word of god in your group, but don't expect to post something like this on a forum where people truly care about the background of their game universe (that has been well established for 20+ years stating what you are proposing is impossible) and expect people to not question it angrily.

Now on a positive side
I think Matt Ward would love this idea

gruegirl wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I'm sorry but what?
"Gender and racial issues in the greater context of the science-fiction universe that is 40k"?

You realize that there's not some kind of misogynistic bend, women aren't "kept down" or anything of that nature. They just aren't in the Space Marines because the Emperor distinctly wanted his Angels of Death to be male.

There's also no "race" issues in 40k like you seem to think.

Everyone serves the Emperor.

That's just it, this is taking place outside the emperor's purview. These are *not* his angels of death and if they have their way they never will be. They're essentially space-pirates. Rebels with self-replicating (albeit 2 at a time) genetic modification toys. And even if everyone serves the emperor, mutants are still ostricised very heavily. Being mutants and women in "Non-womanly roles" I believe this fits both gender and racial issues.

My problem with this is geneseed that wasn't mutated to begin with as in starting as one of the Original legions created by the Emperor would have to have the influence of chaos. Maybe add that to your story, and it's a problem they have to deal with. You really just can't say oh they started as a male chapter, but randomly the geneseed mutated. This scale of mutation would also be seen as heretical and the stopped/destroyed by their chapter, so that would have to be dealt with fluff wise too.

We know of lifeforms on our very Earth that are capable of changing their gender, so ... yeah, geneseed mutating men into women doesn't seem any more odd to me than geneseed mutating men into puppies. Scientifically speaking, that actually makes more sense than GW's explanation of why there shouldn't be any Femarines in the first place (yes, this was analyzed by a couple geeks).

Now, personally I don't like the idea of female Marines on principle - it just doesn't swing with my perception of the setting. But if your group is okay with it, why not! The Deathwatch RPG already takes a lot of liberties from the studio material as is; adding this would not make it worse.

However, I'm with Nicholas in that the backstory could use some more substance, such as the aforementioned Chaos influence (and we do know that Slaanesh is capable of turning people's gender around) as well as concerning the reaction from the Imperium, more specifically the Inquisition, regarding the scale of mutation. If you want to make them a Rogue Chapter you could include a bit about them fleeing from the Imperium, and if you like irony you'll have the original assault on their homeworld carried out by the Sororitas.

I agree that "they all turn female" is a pretty odd and unlikely-seeming mutation. You could, as suggested, have a mutation which inevitably killed male candidates, forcing them (as their numbers dwindled) to start experimenting with female recruits.

The concept that the modifications can only work on men, not on women, has always seemed a bit odd and arbitrary and based more on appearance and literary conceit than on biology or science. The idea of a gland or modification compensating for lesser testosterone levels seems far less fantastic and improbable than one which allows you to spit acid, or eat someone's brain and absorb their memories.

This again...

Why is this still open? The OP admitted that they posted it just to stir up a crapstorm.

Maybe you could instaed make up a sort of Heretical SoB army and they have made armour that is similar size and effect to PA,but is far lighter,so they could move in it.

Just stick SoB heads onto SM for modalling.

How about a Dark Eldar Haemonclus making creatures that look like female marines in the remnants of slaughtered Marines armour. Perhaps the Coven of the Thirteen Scars who have worked with Fabius Bile - together they could likely fashion pretty much anything especailly if it mocks the Astartes.........? The hapless "female Marines may not even be aware of their origin until the DE considers it most amusing to tell them.........

The Dark Eldar already messed with the geneseed of the Wolves and possibily their Primarch..... (Thieves of the Ice Mists p22 DE Codex)

To the people claiming that this isn't biologically possible, you're simply wrong. There are a variety of disease and syndromes that can result in an individual with 'male' (XY) chromosomes displaying the female phenotype. The most famous of these, and one that actually could potentially be caused by the gene seed is Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, which renders cells partially or entirely incapable of respond to the presence of androgens - which are steroids responsible for the masculinisation of the genitals of a fetus as well as cause 'female' changes during puberty.

Now whilst this could be induced, it would only effect the secondary developments of sex that occur during puberty, as sexual dimorphism occurs at the fetal stage, way before the gene seed is inserted. So the best TS could hope for in people who look like women, but have penises.

You could simply say however that due to their seclusion the gene pool 'bottle-necked', and androgen insensitivity became a far more commonly expressed phenotype. That way you would have females, but they would have XY chromosomes and thus mean that there is no reason that they would reject a gene seed as, genotypically, they would be male.

Deadshot wrote:Maybe you could instaed make up a sort of Heretical SoB army and they have made armour that is similar size and effect to PA,but is far lighter,so they could move in it.

Now that makes even less sense, though.
"Heretic SoB" goes against the very spirit of that army, and why would they see a need for such armour in the first place? They just don't operate in a manner where all those little gadgets that make Marine armour different from the Sisters' Angel-pattern would turn out to be useful, as those tools are very practical, but also highly circumstancial. I'm not even sure something like a waste recycler could work for them, their normal human stomachs are probably way less efficient at drawing nutrients out of that than a Marine's...
Plus, an Order doesn't build its own armour, they get it from the AdMech and the Ecclesiarchal forges on Ophelia VII, with the Ecclesiarchy having the monopoly on deciding what's heretical and what isn't. Not to mention that there are way less Sisters than Marines in the first place.

Of course one could still do all this - it's their own game, after all - but it'd be even further away from the "spirit" of the setting than Femarines. Unless the group in question has a similar perception of the setting. It's very much an individual decision.

As a side note, the armour could weigh a million tons - as long as it's powered, even a child could move in it.

Lynata wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Maybe you could instaed make up a sort of Heretical SoB army and they have made armour that is similar size and effect to PA,but is far lighter,so they could move in it.

Now that makes even less sense, though.
"Heretic SoB" goes against the very spirit of that army, and why would they see a need for such armour in the first place? They just don't operate in a manner where all those little gadgets that make Marine armour different from the Sisters' Angel-pattern would turn out to be useful, as those tools are very practical, but also highly circumstancial. I'm not even sure something like a waste recycler could work for them, their normal human stomachs are probably way less efficient at drawing nutrients out of that than a Marine's...
Plus, an Order doesn't build its own armour, they get it from the AdMech and the Ecclesiarchal forges on Ophelia VII, with the Ecclesiarchy having the monopoly on deciding what's heretical and what isn't. Not to mention that there are way less Sisters than Marines in the first place.

Of course one could still do all this - it's their own game, after all - but it'd be even further away from the "spirit" of the setting than Femarines. Unless the group in question has a similar perception of the setting. It's very much an individual decision.

As a side note, the armour could weigh a million tons - as long as it's powered, even a child could move in it.

What I meant was,agroup of female chaos cultists,using the rules for SoBs representing their faith in the Dark Gods,and the armour is undeniably useful to anyone,except nids and crons of course.Even DE won't complain if they can put an Archon in PA will they?

And PA isn't powered.The Black carapace causes it to tap the nervous system of the marine and reads his mind basically,so it knows what to do and how to move.

Deadshot wrote:What I meant was,agroup of female chaos cultists,using the rules for SoBs representing their faith in the Dark Gods,and the armour is undeniably useful to anyone,except nids and crons of course.Even DE won't complain if they can put an Archon in PA will they?

Oh yeah, I remember a similar idea from the Chaos SoB thread ... yes, I suppose that would work. I'd make the armour organic/daemonic less than mechanical, though. Y'know, Chaos-style.

Deadshot wrote:And PA isn't powered.The Black carapace causes it to tap the nervous system of the marine and reads his mind basically,so it knows what to do and how to move.

Um... Power Armour is Powered. It's part of the term. >_>
The Black Carapace "only" decreases reaction time, as it's apparently faster and more accurate to read the "commands" for the servo mechanisms directly via spinal tap rather than "waiting" for a conversion of electrical muscle impulses picked up by dermal sensors or the activation of an array of pressure sensors. The only way to replace a Black Carapace would be a Mechanicus MIU implant, but that's a rather radical and exotic procedure. The advantage of the Black Carapace is that the armour basically becomes a second skin instead of just a suit of plates that requires some training and calibration to move as you do. Small, but notable benefit, especially in close combat.

Just because you are pointing out Space Marines must be male doesn't mean you're "nerdraging". You're simply pointing out that's what the background says.

Moving thread to Dakka Fiction, the section of the site for background fiction, fluff about armies, and so on.

Kanluwen wrote:Why is this still open? The OP admitted that they posted it just to stir up a crapstorm.

No she (I'm guessing on the gender) didn't. She clearly stated her reasons for posting it. She ALSO said she expected a more negative reaction, which I'm proud to say most of you have bettered. Well done, chaps.