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Hey guys,

I'm perplexed why the Imperial Guard works in operational regiments (that is, a self-sufficient force of 1000-3000 personnel) instead of a much larger unit. Especially in the novels (say the Ciaphas Cain ones) when only a few regiments are sent to a large conflict, thats like 7, 000 troops. Really? 7, 000 troops to stop a splinter fleet?

Even modern day wars have more than those numbers, so to say that the Imperial Guard sends only a few regiments is a bit silly. Is this a case of author(s) error or am I missing something here?

carbonpillow wrote:Hey guys,

I'm perplexed why the Imperial Guard works in operational regiments (that is, a self-sufficient force of 1000-3000 personnel) instead of a much larger unit. Especially in the novels (say the Ciaphas Cain ones) when only a few regiments are sent to a large conflict, thats like 7, 000 troops. Really? 7, 000 troops to stop a splinter fleet?

Even modern day wars have more than those numbers, so to say that the Imperial Guard sends only a few regiments is a bit silly. Is this a case of author(s) error or am I missing something here?

Well I got washed up when I tried to explain this but here is what I learned:

- Regiment vary in size, some are 3000 - 6000 while some are 10 - 12000 Guardsman.
- On some wars there are several million Guardsman involved meaning at least dozen of Regiments + armor Regiments.
- When numbers of one Regiment drop to aolmost wiped out they are merged with another Regiment.

Basically the structure is squad - platoon - regiment - army. Ad remember folks that even if they die in gazillions Guardsman are actually well trained solders and have steel balls and solid protection. They don't go in battle with actual flashlight.

Its the error of GW to allow their gamedesigners to write about the IG without enlighting them first of the benefits of research.
So the crappy idea of "everything is a regiment" came to pass.
Where former IG codices had a believable hierarchy, 5th ed is plagued with a ruin of it.

Generally the IG scales up from single guardsmen to armygroups.
In 5th, guardsmen>squad>platoon>company>regiment is as it was before, but the next steps gone missing.

We had a debate of the size and organization of IG before. Can't find the "organizational" thread

Amounts of IG regiments: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/376733.page

1hadhq wrote:Its the error of GW to allow their gamedesigners to write about the IG without enlighting them first of the benefits of research.

Or the error of players to apply modern day thinking to the 41st Millennium.

It's all based upon how the Imperial Guard actually works, how they gain new troops and how the ones they have are organized. IG regiments are, after all, formed from PDF formations, whose size may vary wildly from planet to planet, which is why IG Regiments themselves are sometimes just a few hundred men strong, but on the other hand sporting numbers as high as 10.000 (which has been mentioned as "unusually large"). As per Imperial Tactica, it is intentional that Regiments are not truly able to wage independent warfare but have to rely on one aother for combined arms support, just like they have to rely on the Imperial Navy for air support and transportation. An infantry regiment, for example, will contain few artillery, whereas an artillery regiment will have little else. Imperial Commanders thus use regiments like pieces to build a viable army depending on campaign goals and opposition. For this it would be utterly detrimental if Imperial regiments were integrated into a larger hierarchy - they have to remain "mobile" in order to be attached or detached to/from other regiments as the situation warrants.

And it has been like this since 2nd Edition.

The authors who write a lot of GWs stuff have no sense of military scale, but then few authors do.

Guard are not formed from PDF formations in anything but the loosest sense.

They can pull officers and troopers from PDF formations, but they are not simply telling PDF formations that "Hey, you're Guardsmen now!".

Most Guard Foundings are just that--a Founding where Guardsmen are recruited from the populace at large, and then trained and schooled for warfare. These Foundings will usually have PDF officers or fairly veteran troops skimmed out to provide a command cadre, but depending on the world doing the founding you might simply have noblemen's sons given command even though they have no business being on the battlefield.

"Every planetary Lord in the Imperium recruits, equips and maintains his own planetary defense forces. The number and types of troops vary tremendously from world to world. The forces of a multi-billion population hive world like Necromunda are vastly different from those of a sparsely populated forest world like Ryza. Regardless of the size of its armies, each world is obliged to make 10% of its total armed forces available for recruitment into the Imperial Guard in any year."

Where did you get the idea that the IG would recruit otherwise? I have to admit I've never read of anything contrary to the above codex fluff yet.

Lynata wrote:"Every planetary Lord in the Imperium recruits, equips and maintains his own planetary defense forces. The number and types of troops vary tremendously from world to world. The forces of a multi-billion population hive world like Necromunda are vastly different from those of a sparsely populated forest world like Ryza. Regardless of the size of its armies, each world is obliged to make 10% of its total armed forces available for recruitment into the Imperial Guard in any year."

Where did you get the idea that the IG would recruit otherwise? I have to admit I've never read of anything contrary to the above codex fluff yet.

First off, the fact that it says "a sparsely populated forest world like Ryza" should tell you there's something wrong there. Ryza's a Forge World, a major one at that.

Cruddace copy/pasted a lot of old fluff into the current IG book and royally screwed the pooch because of it. The jerk brought "hot-shot lasguns" into the picture again, y'know!

Anyways, 10% of its total armed forces does not necessarily mean that there will be Regiments founded exclusively from PDF.

I'm not saying that PDF members are not going to be brought into the Guard. I'm saying that it's not commonly done, unless the Lord is really really desperate to strip out all of his world's defenses.

Kanluwen wrote:First off, the fact that it says "a sparsely populated forest world like Ryza" should tell you there's something wrong there. Ryza's a Forge World, a major one at that.

Apparently it is, now. This is what was printed in the codex, though. *shrugs*

Either it's a retcon or the guys at Forgeworld simply got it wrong. That has no effect on the fact that the IG recruits from the PDF, though.

Kanluwen wrote:Cruddace copy/pasted a lot of old fluff into the current IG book and royally screwed the pooch because of it.

You call it screwup, I call it continuity.
I actually like the Hellguns term better as well, but imho the rest was completely okay. Better than rewriting half the setting every time a new edition is released, anyways.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm saying that it's not commonly done, unless the Lord is really really desperate to strip out all of his world's defenses.

But based on what? And where would the regiments come from otherwise? We already know from the 4E 'dex that they basically just go to a planet, load a couple thousand people onto a big transport and ship them straight to a warzone. If said people are not even PDF but freshly recruited civilians, as you imply ... well, I guess they'd really be in for a gakky month.

"As part of their annual tithe, Imperial Governors are obliged to send no less than one tenth of their overall fighting force, and as much more as the Departmento Munitorum deem necessary, to fight the Emperor's wars throughout the galaxy. This is the most important aspect of the tribute, for it it these regiments that form the Imperial Guard."

That's from the 5E 'dex, by the way, and it's not copypasted but newly written (at least I have never seen this exact wording before). If you have any studio source that claims otherwise, feel free to throw in a couple citations by yourself.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:First off, the fact that it says "a sparsely populated forest world like Ryza" should tell you there's something wrong there. Ryza's a Forge World, a major one at that.

Apparently it is, now. This is what was printed in the codex, though. *shrugs*

Either it's a retcon or the guys at Forgeworld simply got it wrong.

Yeah...the guys at Forge World created Ryza. Ryza still exists too. It was attacked by an Ork Waagh! and successfully was defended.

That has no effect on the fact that the IG recruits from the PDF, though.

You're not comprehending, as usual.

I said that it "should tell you there's something wrong there". It's old fluff that should not be considered by and large.

Kanluwen wrote:Cruddace copy/pasted a lot of old fluff into the current IG book and royally screwed the pooch because of it.

You call it screwup, I call it continuity.
I actually like the Hellguns term better as well, but imho the rest was completely okay. Better than rewriting half the setting every time a new edition is released, anyways.

You mean other than him butchering the fluff behind Stormtroopers and negating the work that Forge World has done mentioning Stormtrooper Regiments(Yes. They are now saying that there are Regiments not a single one. Ask them on their Facebook page), inventing the Vendetta to take the role of a Vulture Gunship, some new Chimera variants, the stupid Punisher Leman Russ, etc?

Everything people accuse Ward of--Cruddace actually is. He has no understanding of the armies he writes for, and shouldn't be allowed to touch finger to keyboard without people watching over his shoulders with a primed cattle prod.

Kanluwen wrote:I'm saying that it's not commonly done, unless the Lord is really really desperate to strip out all of his world's defenses.

But based on what? And where would the regiments come from otherwise?
We already know from the 4E 'dex that they basically just go to a planet, load a couple thousand people onto a big transport and ship them straight to a warzone.

What are you trying to say here? Do you want to know the requirements for who gets recruited for Foundings?

We don't know any real kind of reasons. Best guess is that "it depends on the world". There's mention of Regiments like the Jopall Indentured which are founded solely of people born into the lower castes of Imperial society and offered a chance to "pay off" their debt to the world of their birth.

If said people are not even PDF but freshly recruited civilians, as you imply ... well, I guess they'd really be in for a gakky month.

Who says life in the Guard is easy?
There's implications of recruiters and them telling recruits lies. It's just like today.

"As part of their annual tithe, Imperial Governors are obliged to send no less than one tenth of their overall fighting force, and as much more as the Departmento Munitorum deem necessary, to fight the Emperor's wars throughout the galaxy. This is the most important aspect of the tribute, for it it these regiments that form the Imperial Guard."

That's from the 5E 'dex, by the way, and it's not copypasted but newly written (at least I have never seen this exact wording before).

"I have never seen this exact wording before" means it's "newly written"?

If you have any studio source that claims otherwise, feel free to throw in a couple citations by yourself.

If I had any studio sources, they wouldn't let me cite them anyways.

But putting it bluntly: read Cruddace's books. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out his methodology.

Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Its the error of GW to allow their gamedesigners to write about the IG without enlighting them first of the benefits of research.

Or the error of players to apply modern day thinking to the 41st Millennium.

QFT - it'd be like a Roman legionarie looking at the modern world's military organization and thinking, 'Wait, what? Where's the cohorts, the legions? This stuff makes no sense.'

Things radically change in just 2,000 years - imagine how much can change in 38,000 years.

They really should retcon a Regiment to be between 50-150,000 troops. These are forces that wage campaigns across entire planets, systems, and sectors of space covering thousands of lightyears. The Axis had 4 million men when it invaded 1 country, the Soviet Union. That'd be like 800 IG Regiments.

Harriticus wrote:They really should retcon a Regiment to be between 50-150,000 troops. These are forces that wage campaigns across entire planets, systems, and sectors of space covering thousands of lightyears. The Axis had 4 million men when it invaded 1 country, the Soviet Union. That'd be like 800 IG Regiments.

There's actually a reason for it not being retconned.

A "Regiment" can suffer casualties dropping it from that 150,000 number to the point of the "Regiment" being 25,000 troops total. They just retain the title, even if they're not.

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah...the guys at Forge World created Ryza.

Ah, that's why it shows up in the IG Codex first before it gets mentioned in any of the FW books? Interesting.

Kanluwen wrote:You're not comprehending, as usual.

You're insulting people who point out flaws in your arguments, as usual.

Kanluwen wrote:I said that it "should tell you there's something wrong there". It's old fluff that should not be considered by and large.

That's silly and you know it. Just because one minor aspect of older fluff may(!) have changed doesn't invalidate everything else as well.

As is obviously proven by the most recent IG codex, I should add.

Kanluwen wrote:You mean other than him butchering the fluff behind Stormtroopers and negating the work that Forge World has done mentioning Stormtrooper Regiments(Yes. They are now saying that there are Regiments not a single one. Ask them on their Facebook page)

When GW says there is one Storm Trooper regiment, then Forgeworld comes along and invents several, and then GW still sticks to how they were originally, the fault obviously lies with Forgeworld for not following the setting as described in studio material.

Thanks for mentioning this, by the way. Now I know I can consider FW books to stand apart from proper GW material just like BL novels do.

Kanluwen wrote:inventing the Vendetta to take the role of a Vulture Gunship, some new Chimera variants, the stupid Punisher Leman Russ, etc?

New codices inventing new units? How could they?!

Kanluwen wrote:He has no understanding of the armies he writes for, and shouldn't be allowed to touch finger to keyboard without people watching over his shoulders with a primed cattle prod.

Considering your past postings regarding the Storm Trooper Regiment and the question of IG recruitment, I actually think it's you that has no grasp on how the Imperial Guard is supposed to work as per GW. I think you should put away the FW books and go back reading the actual source material. That you personally may like what FW wrote more than what GW came up with does not change the fact that it's still their setting - not Forgeworld's and not yours - and that they have the authority to say what goes and what not.

Kanluwen wrote:There's mention of Regiments like the Jopall Indentured which are founded solely of people born into the lower castes of Imperial society and offered a chance to "pay off" their debt to the world of their birth.

What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

Kanluwen wrote:There's implications of recruiters and them telling recruits lies. It's just like today.

For the PDF? Of course, I can believe that.

Kanluwen wrote:"I have never seen this exact wording before" means it's "newly written"?

Obviously. When it's not copypasted then someone must have typed it, which implies research and thought process. Sentences don't form themselves.

Lynata wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah...the guys at Forge World created Ryza.

Ah, that's why it shows up in the IG Codex first before it gets mentioned in any of the FW books? Interesting.

Gee, it's almost like the staff at Forge World actually worked in the design studio prior to setting up Forge World.
Warwick Kinrade's first credit with GW is as an "Assistant Games Developer" on the Big Black Book. And let's not forget that they do a lot of work these days with the studio proper.

Kanluwen wrote:You're not comprehending, as usual.

You're insulting people who point out flaws in your arguments, as usual.

There are no flaws in my argument, there's just you using outdated fluff to make an argument and call it a flaw.

Let the past die, and you'll be better off.

Kanluwen wrote:I said that it "should tell you there's something wrong there". It's old fluff that should not be considered by and large.

That's silly and you know it. Just because one minor aspect of older fluff may(!) have changed doesn't invalidate everything else as well.

As is obviously proven by the most recent IG codex, I should add.

Yes, let's use that as proof despite the copypasting douchebaggery that is Cruddace. By the by, read the Hot-shot Lasgun description under the Stormtrooper entry for a good example of this.

Cruddace owes myself and every Guard player out there an apology for his shoddy worksmanship.

Kanluwen wrote:You mean other than him butchering the fluff behind Stormtroopers and negating the work that Forge World has done mentioning Stormtrooper Regiments(Yes. They are now saying that there are Regiments not a single one. Ask them on their Facebook page)

When GW says there is one Storm Trooper regiment, then Forgeworld comes along and invents several, and then GW still sticks to how they were originally, the fault obviously lies with Forgeworld for not following the setting as described in studio material.

Thanks for mentioning this, by the way. Now I know I can consider FW books to stand apart from proper GW material just like BL novels do.

Yeah...no, you can't. Forge World's stuff is canon. Black Library's stuff is canon, dependent on the author and timeframe of publication.

Kanluwen wrote:inventing the Vendetta to take the role of a Vulture Gunship, some new Chimera variants, the stupid Punisher Leman Russ, etc?

New codices inventing new units? How could they?!

Yeah...
"Crummy author invents new units which already have an equivalent in canon!" is how that should read.

Kanluwen wrote:He has no understanding of the armies he writes for, and shouldn't be allowed to touch finger to keyboard without people watching over his shoulders with a primed cattle prod.

Considering your past postings regarding the Storm Trooper Regiment and the question of IG recruitment, I actually think it's you that has no grasp on how the Imperial Guard is supposed to work as per GW. I think you should put away the FW books and go back reading the actual source material. That you personally may like what FW wrote more than what GW came up with does not change the fact that it's still their setting - not Forgeworld's and not yours - and that they have the authority to say what goes and what not.

Uh, yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

No. Forge World has more say in the design process than you think Lynata. I'd suggest you start realizing that.

Kanluwen wrote:There's mention of Regiments like the Jopall Indentured which are founded solely of people born into the lower castes of Imperial society and offered a chance to "pay off" their debt to the world of their birth.

What does that have to do with the topic at hand?

What does you citing fluff older than most Dakkites have to do with the topic at hand?

Kanluwen wrote:There's implications of recruiters and them telling recruits lies. It's just like today.

For the PDF? Of course, I can believe that.

No sweetheart, for the Imperial Guard.

Kanluwen wrote:"I have never seen this exact wording before" means it's "newly written"?

Obviously. When it's not copypasted then someone must have typed it, which implies research and thought process. Sentences don't form themselves.

When all you do is take the exact same thing and reword it, it's still copypasting.

Kanluwen wrote:

Lynata wrote:You're insulting people who point out flaws in your arguments, as usual.

There are no flaws in my argument, there's just you using outdated fluff to make an argument and call it a flaw.

Let the past die, and you'll be better off.

Lynata has legitimate points that you have failed to address logically, and your insults do you a disservice. You'd do well to calm down.

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah...no, you can't. Forge World's stuff is canon. Black Library's stuff is canon, dependent on the author and timeframe of publication.

Kanluwen wrote:Forge World

Kanluwen wrote:canon

the company that wrote land raider armor as being equivalent to 365mm of conventional steel armor

Hahahahaha man you're a real jokester today.

ph34r wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Lynata wrote:You're insulting people who point out flaws in your arguments, as usual.

There are no flaws in my argument, there's just you using outdated fluff to make an argument and call it a flaw.

Let the past die, and you'll be better off.

Lynata has legitimate points that you have failed to address logically, and your insults do you a disservice. You'd do well to calm down.

When the information supporting those points have been left by the roadside for years, whilst being further explained and refined in Black Library's stuff, then all of a sudden it gets counterwritten by the same person who also writes "Hotshot Lasguns" back in?

Then those "legitimate points" suddenly become far less legitimate.

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah...no, you can't. Forge World's stuff is canon. Black Library's stuff is canon, dependent on the author and timeframe of publication.

Kanluwen wrote:Forge World

Kanluwen wrote:canon

the company that wrote land raider armor as being equivalent to 365mm of conventional steel armor

Hahahahaha man you're a real jokester today.

Logic isn't quite the same thing as canon, ph34r.

Kanluwen wrote:Gee, it's almost like the staff at Forge World actually worked in the design studio prior to setting up Forge World. Warwick Kinrade's first credit with GW is as an "Assistant Games Developer" on the Big Black Book.

Yeah, the 3rd Edition one, which is after Ryza first got mentioned back in the days of 2E.

Kanluwen wrote:There are no flaws in my argument, there's just you using outdated fluff to make an argument and call it a flaw.

The 5th Edition Imperial Guard Codex is not "outdated".

Kanluwen wrote:Let the past die, and you'll be better off.

Hey, it's you who started with the "as usual" stuff and what comes off as a personal attack. How about we both try not to hit each other below the belt when we conduct our debates? I know the internet can be a poor place for discussions, and I reckon we might get along better in real life, but we have to make due with the tools we have, right?

Kanluwen wrote:Yes, let's use that as proof despite the copypasting douchebaggery that is Cruddace.

Again, that part is not copypasted. Though .. hey, even if it were, it's still the current valid studio material. The whole "copypasting" stuff is really a poor basis for your arguments. It's in the currently valid material, so it's a fact we have to respect.

Kanluwen wrote:Yeah...no, you can't. Forge World's stuff is canon. Black Library's stuff is canon, dependent on the author and timeframe of publication.

Please stop making such claims, people may actually believe them. You do not decide what is canon and what's not. Games Workshop does, and if you have any actual quotes that contradict and override the statements and experiences from George Mann, Gav Thorpe, Andy Hoare and Aaron Dembski-Bowden, please do provide them.

The very idea that some BL novels are canon and others are not based on the author's name is mindboggling (apart from conflicting the statements of actual BL authors). You make it sound like there's an official list somewhere.

Kanluwen wrote:No. Forge World has more say in the design process than you think Lynata. I'd suggest you start realizing that.

I'd suggest you start showing some proof for all what you claim here.

Kanluwen wrote:No sweetheart, for the Imperial Guard.

And who says that? Another Black Library novel or a Forgeworld book?

Regarding Forge World's input into the design studio: Where do you think the Stormraven came from?


The "Recruiters" part came from campaign material for Medusa IV.

As for the Ryza part--I'd suggest you look into the relationship that Warwick had with the members of the design studio.

I think it's best we focus our efforts on the true threat now though.

The Tau fanboys.

The simplest and least contentious answer to the original question is that Games Workshop's writers chose to create a parallel to something they and their audience would understand well: the British regimental system. If you really think those numbers make no sense in the 41st millennium (I've really no opinion either way) then bear in mind that under that system 3,000 is (or was - even in the UK the regimental system is nowadays as much ceremonial as it is practical) a regiment's standing peacetime, volunteer strength. In time of war, even on our small island, additional battalions would be created and regiments reinforced with conscripts to many times that number. Given that the Imperium has been constantly at war for ten millennia, and numbers a million worlds, it would be quite reasonable for an administrative regiment to reach more-or-less whatever strength you think plausibility requires.

The best part about 40k is that when you think about the scale of the entire galaxy being at war, there is always room for more sensible background that can compensate the stuff games workshop tells you.

Kanluwen wrote:Regarding Forge World's input into the design studio: Where do you think the Stormraven came from?

I really don't care that much. As Gav Thorpe has said, GW often adopt things they like, such as for example the Last Chancers. The rest simply gets ignored and "not accepted into the worldview promulgated by army books and codexes", as was the wording.

Given that both FW as well as BL or the FFG RPG employ people who have or maybe still are working with GW, one cannot make a categorical connection there, as obviously conflicts and contradictions to the studio material still arise and the existence of such is widely accepted amongst and even condoned by said employees (see Andy Hoare's comment in the "what is canon" thread). I'm no expert on how GW actually writes their books, but I'm fairly sure it's a team-effort that incorporates a fair deal of "mutual consent", whereas a writer can more or less do what he wants when working on a BL novel, or has a completely different (and smaller) team at FW or FFG, so the end results there may be different than what comes out of GW HQ. We don't know the backgrounds - we can only judge by what we see actually printed. And the 5E IG Codex is very clear in that regard.

Kanluwen wrote:The "Recruiters" part came from campaign material for Medusa IV.

I actually took the time to hunt down said material (it was no longer hosted on the GW website, but hooray for the internets), and the only mention of recruitments I could find was this:
"Only Medusa V was able to answer the call and with admirable bravery and unshakable loyalty to the Emperor, an army of sorts was mustered. With no real military force of its own, the meagre Planetary Defence Force recruited thousands of willing miners and labourers before departing for Medusa IV on commandeered bulk freighters and supply vessels."

The actual Imperial Guard description only mentions regiments being pulled together from elsewhere.

Still, thanks for making me check out this little mini-supplement. It was a very nice and detailed read, and I kinda feel sad that they haven't done something like that for quite some time now.

Kanluwen wrote:As for the Ryza part--I'd suggest you look into the relationship that Warwick had with the members of the design studio.

Why? All I need to know is that Ryza was first mentioned in a GW book and it was a Forest World there. When FW makes something else out of that, ... well, that's quite simply FW's decision - and deviation.

That said, it's actually quite possible that, after all these years and since this also carried over into the FFG RPG, GW would simply roll with it and render it a true retcon. For the moment this would remain a theory dependant on the individual reader's perception of "canon".

It could even be two different worlds just bearing the same name, though. After all, the maps also show them to be located in completely different Segmentae... This would tie into what ph34r wrote:

ph34r wrote:The best part about 40k is that when you think about the scale of the entire galaxy being at war, there is always room for more sensible background that can compensate the stuff games workshop tells you.

I even think that the act of looking for possible solutions/excuses is rather fun! It's like solving a riddle using your wits and geeky 40k background knowledge, potentially testing the latter against other members of the playerbase. If such discussion is carried out with mutual respect, you can only win. Either one's input may end up being valued as a good explanation, or one's understanding of the setting gets corrected in places where it would clash with some bit of info one has previously been unaware of. None of us knows everything, after all.

Flinty wrote:The authors who write a lot of GWs stuff have no sense of military scale, but then few authors do.

Indeed. They have NO sense of scale, a complete and utter lack of it.

1hadhq wrote:Its the error of GW to allow their gamedesigners to write about the IG without enlighting them first of the benefits of research.
So the crappy idea of "everything is a regiment" came to pass.
Where former IG codices had a believable hierarchy, 5th ed is plagued with a ruin of it.

infinite_array wrote:

Lynata wrote:

1hadhq wrote:Its the error of GW to allow their gamedesigners to write about the IG without enlighting them first of the benefits of research.

Or the error of players to apply modern day thinking to the 41st Millennium.

QFT - it'd be like a Roman legionarie looking at the modern world's military organization and thinking, 'Wait, what? Where's the cohorts, the legions? This stuff makes no sense.'

Things radically change in just 2,000 years - imagine how much can change in 38,000 years.

An error? Moi?
Maybe yours, as I didn't mention anything modern, historical or real life at all. Look, underlined, IG codices....
Possibly badly worded on my part.

Codex IG 3rd ed, includes an example of IG organizational structures in a selection process and you get there anything from singular persons to whole crusades. Was it used? No. But still the old scheme of : squad>platoon>company>regiment kept.

Codex IG page 9.

Regiments consiting of 1500 to 120.000 , comparing heavy armored Rgt and infantry Rgt in size. Then a Regiment disassembled to:
3-20 companies, 3-6 platoons per company, multiple squads per platoon. Even with 20 companies a 6 platoons, ( 120 platoons ), its hard to organize 120.000 persons. A platoon would be 1000 split into squads of ten. ( 100 squads ) The poor platoon leader.....
OtoH, works well with 1500.
1500, 5 companies a 300, 3 platoons of 100. crews of 5-10 per vehicle, a platoon would be 10-20 vehicles. A company as 30-60 vehicles.
Not impossible to maneuver and keep coherent.

Can we expect one who wrote about the organization of a basic formation of the IG in such not so well thougth out way to be able to
provide believable background for the whole IG's organization?

1hadhq wrote:An error? Moi?
Maybe yours, as I didn't mention anything modern, historical or real life at all. Look, underlined, IG codices....
Possibly badly worded on my part.

Maybe just a misunderstanding then - it's just that I see a lot of people comparing the Imperial Guard to modern day western army, and that just doesn't work too well, imho. Sorry if I got you wrong there!

1hadhq wrote:Regiments consiting of 1500 to 120.000 , comparing heavy armored Rgt and infantry Rgt in size. Then a Regiment disassembled to:
3-20 companies, 3-6 platoons per company, multiple squads per platoon. Even with 20 companies a 6 platoons, ( 120 platoons ), its hard to organize 120.000 persons. A platoon would be 1000 split into squads of ten. ( 100 squads ) The poor platoon leader.....
OtoH, works well with 1500.

Wheww... you sure that's not a zero too much there? 12.000 would be much more in line with what I've read so far ...
I can't seem to find that number in the 3rd Edition IG Codex I have - it may be on another page, for I have the German book here. I can probably try to find an English version later.

I admit I'm rather fixated on the ~1k-12k size, which I think works out nicely. If some source really claimed a 120k strong regiment then that is indeed excessive and I'd share in your criticism regarding the organisation! Not only does it seem odd in terms of command hierarchy, it also goes against the basic principle of keeping each regiment unable to wage war by itself, and it makes it unnecessarily difficult to properly assign this regiment as a reinforcing element to an army group (given that this regiment is as large as many an army group by itself!). Weird.

The hierarchy is actually less of a problem, though, as I think that you would not "scale up" the size of the platoons and companies, you'd just end up with more companies being part of the regiment. Of course, with 1.200 companies, that's still a nightmare for the Colonel in command ... unless it's Chenkov.

Lynata wrote:Wheww... you sure that's not a zero too much there?

5th ed codex IG page 9 , 3rd paragraph, 18th Valhallan light infantry = 120000 men.

The common scale problem... instead of adding more regiments, one was bloated.
Considering the same codex claims the munitorum's principle would be to have regiments of equal effectiveness in battle, no matter the size or composition, makes those valhallans more than worthless...

Lynata wrote:
for I have the German book here. I can probably try to find an English version later.

I am ok with German versions, points at flag.

Lynata wrote:
I admit I'm rather fixated on the ~1k-12k size, which I think works out nicely. If some source really claimed a 120k strong regiment then that is indeed excessive and I'd share in your criticism regarding the organisation! Not only does it seem odd in terms of command hierarchy, it also goes against the basic principle of keeping each regiment unable to wage war by itself, and it makes it unnecessarily difficult to properly assign this regiment as a reinforcing element to an army group (given that this regiment is as large as many an army group by itself!). Weird.

Exactly.
A formation blown out of proportion. Just to provide enough bodies for an idiotic tactic, to drown the enemy in guardsmen.
Steadfast valhallans turned into cannonfodder

Ahh, the 5E one, I was looking at the 3E book.

Yeah, seen it. This is madness!

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Lynata wrote:I'm no expert on how GW actually writes their books, but I'm fairly sure it's a team-effort that incorporates a fair deal of "mutual consent", whereas a writer can more or less do what he wants when working on a BL novel, or has a completely different (and smaller) team at FW or FFG, so the end results there may be different than what comes out of GW HQ. We don't know the backgrounds - we can only judge by what we see actually printed. And the 5E IG Codex is very clear in that regard.

The 'old guard' of writers, back in Andy Chambers day, used to co-contribute to others books. It's pretty noticeable in the 3rd and 4th edition codices. There's even multiple authors credited to a lot of the books (five are credited to the Necron codex, which shows the effort they put into integrating them into the canon of the time). Just reading the 3rd and 4th edition codices, you can see continuity between them.

It's just as obvious now with the new writers how much they don't try to maintain that continuity anymore. From Cruddace copy/pasting vast portions of old, retconned Guard fluff into the 5th edition codex, rewriting the Tyranid fluff into something barely recogniseable, Ward doing some pretty atrocious things himself, least of which has Blood Angels fighting side by side with xenos (because, like, they're not totally xenophobic at all anymore).

It's very obvious that old mutual collaboration between writers is gone, and the new writers don't know much about the universe as a whole, at least the fluff from the previous edition.

-Loki- wrote:It's very obvious that old mutual collaboration between writers is gone.

Mhm, I was less referring to a collaboration in that more than one author would write passages for a book, but more theorizing about a sort of "internal consistency council" where someone goes through the writings and checks if they are in line with the rest of the setting. The writers seem to maintain a clear distinction between "studio material, such as our army books and codices" and anything else bearing the 40k IP mark, which makes me believe that they would at least keep a continuity for this inner circle of products.

You know, just to make sure that no single writer does something really atrocious. A sort of fluff quality control, if you will. I just don't really think that nobody looks it over before it goes into print.

Flinty wrote:The authors who write a lot of GWs stuff have no sense of military scale, but then few authors do.

Pretty much this.