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Hi all!

After reading all the news coverage that is splashed all over the front pages today, and among all the terrible news about the riots and looting now engulfing our green and pleasant land, one thing made me lol....
If you should turn to page 7 of your copy of the Daily Hate Mail today, in amongst all the news about the police not coping and the awful loss and destruction suffered, there is a little text box in the corner.

That 'bastion of britishness' that is the Mail is trying to prove again, that Grand Theft Auto is the root of all evil....
According to 'a policeman' (name not supplied), "These kids are out of control. When I was young it was Pacman and board games. Now they are playing Grand Theft Auto and wanting to live it for themselves"

Ummmmmmm, lolwut?

If you are stupid enough to be influenced by a computer game then you should be locked up as par for the course. It's due to blinkered officers like that that kids are able to have excuses for the stupid gak that they pull....
It's never gone away, the link between violent films, games, books etc and the atrocities that some people pull off. It's merely an excuse.

And I, for one, am really pissed off by it....

What do you guys think? Is there really a link between the video games and books that are produced these days and real life violence?
Surely not?

There isn't. But hes somewhat right. Its not games or books; but there is a total lack of respect that is taught. Kids are raised to hate the police.

Agreed, there is a shocking amount of disrespect for the Police. At the end of the day, they are doing their job, and for the most part they do it well..
Where are the parents in all of this? If my 10 year old came home with a new PS3 and a laptop, I'd have to ask WTF?

The parents are sitting on the Methadone and/or busy getting their brew money.

I have done some research on video games and violence for media last year. Studies say that people can be influenced by violence in games; but their are other things that are a bigger influence.

I would not rule out that children can be affected by video games. Psychological research shows that children's cognitive skills and ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality are not properly developed.

It's an area where most people are happy with censorship on the grounds of caution. Children don't need to play 18+ titles. There are plenty of age suitable titles available.

heacy hitter wrote:I have done some research on video games and violence for media last year. Studies say that people can be influenced by violence in games; but their are other things that are a bigger influence.

I presumed that there were. Any chance of a list?

Also, aimed at the Mail, there was looting, raping, pillaging and general acts of violence LONG before video games even existed. And im sure it will carry on LONG after games like GT:A have ceased to be. It's just lazy journalism. Period.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Kilkrazy, yes I'm sure that they could. But surely a responsible parent would not even contemplate buying thier 7 yr old an 18+ game?

Speaking for myself, my parents were not the strictest when it came to this sort of thing. I remember watching 'Alien' when I was 12.
However, they did believe me to be a trustworthy young man. As such I had free reign when it came to watching movies. I don't feel that I have been adversely affected in any way, I have a wife, a flat, a car and a responsible job.

The biggest problem here is the parents. Some people should not be allowed to breed....

Kilkrazy wrote:I would not rule out that children can be affected by video games. Psychological research shows that children's cognitive skills and ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality are not properly developed.

It's an area where most people are happy with censorship on the grounds of caution. Children don't need to play 18+ titles. There are plenty of age suitable titles available.

I agree that very young children shouldn't be playing graphic violent video games, but must admit I am somewhat skeptical when I hear the argument that " violent games lead to real life violence"...
I can't help but think of the comic book "witch hunts" of the 50's in which comics were blamed for all sorts of " social ill's".
...I just see the finger pointing at video games as politicians and "concerned parents" picking an easy scapegoat.

Viewing a lot violence, whether real or computer generated, over time, will desensitise children to it.

Games such as Grand Theft Auto with plenty of said violence, should not be played by people under 18, as their brains are still not fully developed.


But hey, I'm just a builder... That's just my two cents. But saying that, I have kids, and they will not be playing anything with violence in it until they can afford to buy it them selves.

When I worked in Game, and a parent or child wanted to buy GTA, Resident Evil, Witch hunter etc we had to tell the parents it was an 18 game and contained graphic violence, swearing etc. 99% of the time the parent didn't care or the kid persuaded them with a tantrum. Its the age we live in. Captilisim is what it is. Bring on the commies

Toastedandy wrote:When I worked in Game, and a parent or child wanted to buy GTA, Resident Evil, Witch hunter etc we had to tell the parents it was an 18 game and contained graphic violence, swearing etc. 99% of the time the parent didn't care or the kid persuaded them with a tantrum. Its the age we live in. Captilisim is what it is. Bring on the commies

I would suggest that has very little to do with capitalism and everything to do with bad parenting.

jirc wrote:Viewing a lot violence, whether real or computer generated, over time, will desensitise children to it.

Games such as Grand Theft Auto with plenty of said violence, should not be played by people under 18, as their brains are still not fully developed.


But hey, I'm just a builder... That's just my two cents. But saying that, I have kids, and they will not be playing anything with violence in it until they can afford to buy it them selves.

Not disputing that viewing violent images can lead to a child being desensitized , I've been watching horror films since I could walk and I certianly don't get shaken up by them..
But I still don't neccesarily agree that viewing violent images/playing violent games etc will encourage real life violence.
Now, I suppose those who are predisposed to violent behavior may be drawn to violent games/music/movies...but don't see these as the cause of the violent behavior...

For what it's worth, I too have children and don't allow them to play violent video games, but it's not because I think the games will cause them to behave violently...I just feel they're to young to be exposed to that sort of imagery...plus I dislike video games as a whole.

I do agree with all if you. However, it's not so much the violence in movies, music and games. That has always been around, Tom and Jerry anyone?

It's more the fact that graphic scenes and lyrics have become somewhat socially acceptable in todays world. Before the advent of CGI it was almost impossible to depict the writers true vision. Some early 80's horror films, such as Hellraiser and Braindead, would be alot more graphic if remade using modern methods. The fact that today these movies seem relatively tame is an indictment of modern society.....

Violent video games were around in the early 90's, Streets Of Rage etc. These are now considered to be almost childish. In another 10 years or so, so will games like GT:A.

FITZZ wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I would not rule out that children can be affected by video games. Psychological research shows that children's cognitive skills and ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality are not properly developed.

It's an area where most people are happy with censorship on the grounds of caution. Children don't need to play 18+ titles. There are plenty of age suitable titles available.

I agree that very young children shouldn't be playing graphic violent video games, but must admit I am somewhat skeptical when I hear the argument that " violent games lead to real life violence"...
I can't help but think of the comic book "witch hunts" of the 50's in which comics were blamed for all sorts of " social ill's".
...I just see the finger pointing at video games as politicians and "concerned parents" picking an easy scapegoat.

It is reminiscent of the Victorian concerns about the penny dreadfuls.

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:But surely a responsible parent would not even contemplate buying thier 7 yr old an 18+ game?
...However, they did believe me to be a trustworthy young man. As such I had free reign when it came to watching movies.

What's the difference between irresponsible parenting where the parents let the kid watch whatever damn movies (video games) they want and responsible parenting where the parents respect the child's choice to watch whatever damn movies (video games) they want?

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:I do agree with all if you. However, it's not so much the violence in movies, music and games. That has always been around, Tom and Jerry anyone?

It's more the fact that graphic scenes and lyrics have become somewhat socially acceptable in todays world. Before the advent of CGI it was almost impossible to depict the writers true vision. Some early 80's horror films, such as Hellraiser and Braindead, would be alot more graphic if remade using modern methods. The fact that today these movies seem relatively tame is an indictment of modern society.....

Violent video games were around in the early 90's, Streets Of Rage etc. These are now considered to be almost childish. In another 10 years or so, so will games like GT:A.

Perhaps more socially acceptable, but I don't know about more graphic , at least in the medium of film...
I could list a plethora of grindhouse/ horror from the 70's that are far more graphic in their depiction of violent acts than films like "Saw" even get close to...
Brutal imagery isn't anything new...nor do I believe it any more responsible for Violence than it ever was in the past.

biccat wrote:

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:But surely a responsible parent would not even contemplate buying thier 7 yr old an 18+ game?
...However, they did believe me to be a trustworthy young man. As such I had free reign when it came to watching movies.

What's the difference between irresponsible parenting where the parents let the kid watch whatever damn movies (video games) they want and responsible parenting where the parents respect the child's choice to watch whatever damn movies (video games) they want?

Err....they are both irresponsible examples

Kilkrazy wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I would not rule out that children can be affected by video games. Psychological research shows that children's cognitive skills and ability to distinguish between fantasy and reality are not properly developed.

It's an area where most people are happy with censorship on the grounds of caution. Children don't need to play 18+ titles. There are plenty of age suitable titles available.

I agree that very young children shouldn't be playing graphic violent video games, but must admit I am somewhat skeptical when I hear the argument that " violent games lead to real life violence"...
I can't help but think of the comic book "witch hunts" of the 50's in which comics were blamed for all sorts of " social ill's".
...I just see the finger pointing at video games as politicians and "concerned parents" picking an easy scapegoat.

It is reminiscent of the Victorian concerns about the penny dreadfuls.

Exactly, there has always been some " bogeyman"...some form of entertainment ..that some people point at and say " That is the cause for (insert social evil)!!"...
It's easy targets...but not necessarily the "cause" of anything whatsoever.

Difference between violent video games and cartoons is that the latter are contextualised as being way over the top.
The ludicrous situations place it far beyond realistic consequences.
Tom chases Jerry at full tilt, rounds a corner and gets a whacked in the mush. His face conforms to the shape of the frying pan as it peels away and he falls like a felled tree.

Not saying that video games are always realistic, but they do tend to immerse the player in the situation more viscerally than watching cartoons, and there is the good old adrenalin rush involved.
This may have some bearing on the need to up the ante and make successive generations more outlandish than the last?

sarpedons-right-hand wrote:Hi all!

After reading all the news coverage that is splashed all over the front pages today, and among all the terrible news about the riots and looting now engulfing our green and pleasant land, one thing made me lol....
If you should turn to page 7 of your copy of the Daily Hate Mail today, in amongst all the news about the police not coping and the awful loss and destruction suffered, there is a little text box in the corner.

That 'bastion of britishness' that is the Mail is trying to prove again, that Grand Theft Auto is the root of all evil....
According to 'a policeman' (name not supplied), "These kids are out of control. When I was young it was Pacman and board games. Now they are playing Grand Theft Auto and wanting to live it for themselves"

Ummmmmmm, lolwut?

If you are stupid enough to be influenced by a computer game then you should be locked up as par for the course. It's due to blinkered officers like that that kids are able to have excuses for the stupid gak that they pull....
It's never gone away, the link between violent films, games, books etc and the atrocities that some people pull off. It's merely an excuse.

And I, for one, am really pissed off by it....

What do you guys think? Is there really a link between the video games and books that are produced these days and real life violence?
Surely not?

I think the Daily Mail have been surprisingly easy going about this..

I mean, they could have just blamed it all on black people?

Oh no the right wing hate mags are insinuating that a popular video game depicting a 'culture' of larcenous behaviour in an urban setting might encourage impressionable people who share a broadly similar cultural outlook to crime! How can this be. Havent we given the yoof of today enough political correctness and sugar hearts and flowers, of course we have so it must be the fault of some right wing nutters.

We all know that these rioters and looters are disadvantaged and if the Uk was an equal society, whatever that means, everyone would live in la la land together in peace.

To think that these young disadvantaged people are hoodwinked into evil by video games is unthinkable, after all people are not convinced by the media, they are too smart for that. After all less than 3% of television time is given over to direct advertising, and the BBC doesnt use ads at all, except their own. There is no proof!!! Only hundreds of millions are spent on advetising each year on the blind hope that people are influenced by the media, were there any truth to it it would be moar!!

So if a young innocent layabout is arrested by those evil police and spews out gaming terminology in relation to their alleged crimes its just a coincidence. What would the police know, they only arrest and interview the perpetrators; its not like they see the big picture from a distance like us in our armchairs reading the Guardian.

Maybe this would all blow over if we had real equality and moar pandering, after all these people are angry because they are oppressed and the police should be better off leaving rioters alone to calm down naturally and concentrate on the reasl evils like the EDL. While they arent about thats only further proof of their involvement by their conspicuous absense.

I don't think anyone can truely deny that video games do affect poeple's behaviour. When your playing games that emerse you into a different realm one can't help but get caught up in the moment. Several times I've found myself getting aggressive verbally towards family members after an intense night at losing on Call of Duty 4 or cursing the software that hasn't allowed me to complete a challenge after spending hours on its attempt. Its only natural to get stressed by situations where they are virtual or real.

But to say that video games are a cause of problems, such as the riots going on at the moment is stupid. My uncle used to believe that letting me play Grand Theft Auto would make me want to go around in real life and steal cars, well guess what? Have played GTA for donkeys years and those kinds of thoughts don't even cross my mind. I personally think the kind of people who act in this manner are likely to do it wether they play computer games or not.

I'm currently feeling sorry for the people who have had their shops and homes looted by half brained and thoughtless opportuntist thugs

Read David Grossman's "On Killing". He makes a pretty strong case that realistic violence in videogames can desensitize players to violence to the extent that they are much more able to 'pull the trigger' in real life. The Army has done extensive studies since WW2 and Vietnam on how to train soldiers to 'pull the trigger' on another human being, and uses many of the techniques found in today's FPS games (and even uses some FPS type games extensively in training). His is not close to the only study.

For example, old way- learn to shoot at bulls eye type targets. New way, learn to hit man shaped target that pops up for a limited amount of time.

Kids that get desensitized to the violence via video games do so without the benefit of all the other training the military gives (such as when NOT to pull a trigger, how to handle yourself and your unit after you pull a trigger, etc...)

Again, do the research, read some books and studies rather than look at the topic emotionally. The facts seem to hold that violent video games do indeed desensitize kids to violent acts. More so than violent movies or comic books due to the interactive nature of the games. Again, that is why they make such great training tools....

Jake

biccat wrote:What's the difference between irresponsible parenting where the parents let the kid watch whatever damn movies (video games) they want and responsible parenting where the parents respect the child's choice to watch whatever damn movies (video games) they want?

Well said. A poorly raised child will grow up to be a poorly behaving adult regardless of what entertainment they dabbled in during their youth.

The discussion about whether or not video games cause aggression in violence is not yet possible to have, as there have been a great many inconclusive studies on the topic.

The arguments over this sort of topic tend to isolate a given factor and discuss it as if it were the sole cause of the problem.

Violent games + some of/all the other variables are more likely to be the cause rather than just a single issue.

But a rational discussion that includes all the factors doesn't sell copy!

Maybe this would all blow over if we had real equality and moar pandering, after all these people are angry because they are oppressed and the police should be better off leaving rioters alone to calm down naturally and concentrate on the reasl evils like the EDL. While they arent about thats only further proof of their involvement by their conspicuous absense.

Opressed? they aren't oppressed. They just want free stuff. Leave rioters alone? What do you explain then to the people they threaten, rape, steal from and how do you compensate the store owners and companies who had buildings burned down? I don't think people fully appreciate the economic damage that has been done.

EDL haven't commited anything here. Animals went on riot. Obviously the animals are the criminals.

It's kind of like saying that ice cream attracts sharks because there are more recorded shark attacks when ice cream is being sold at the beach.
What kind of culture do the people in doing the crime subscribe to? Grand theft auto might be a sign of what these people are into more than a cause.

True, there are also several documented facts on how computer games DO cause violence or death. A recent story in the last few weeks was of a young lad who died after playing 8 hours straight and developed a blood clot I believe. Will try and link that story. There was also a case in Japan where a lad sold his friends virtual sword, the owner of said sword then came round and in a rage killed his friend.

Here we go
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?299463-Boy-Dies-From-Playing-Xbox

The family of a budding computer programmer have on Saturday launched a campaign to raise awareness about the health risks of playing online computer games after their son died following a marathon session on his Xbox.
A post-mortem revealed that 20-year-old Chris Staniforth -- who was offered a place to study Game Design at Leicester University -- was killed by a pulmonary embolism, which can occur if someone sits in the same position for several hours.
Xbox 360 controller
Deep vein thrombosis normally affects passengers on long-haul flights, but medical experts fear youngsters who spend hours glued to their consoles might also be at risk and have urged them to take regular breaks.
Professor Brian Colvin -- an expert on blood-related conditions -- said it was "unhealthy" for youngsters to spend long periods in front of their consoles.

And
http://www.theinternetpatrol.com/gamer-killed-over-virtual-legend-of-mir-3-sword/

According to the BBC, Chinese online gamers Qiu Chengwei and Zhu Caoyuan were both involved in the online game Legend of Mir 3. Chengwei apparently won a virtual sword (be clear here, folks, this is nothing more than data on the Internet, not a real sword!), and then loaned ‘it’ (presumably the rights to it, or to ‘use’ it) to Caoyuan. Caoyuan then sold ‘it’ to someone for the equivalent of 473 British pounds (approximately $861 USD).

Chengwei was so incensed when he learned that Caoyuan had sold his… again, let’s be clear here … data bits, that Chengwei rushed over to Caoyuan’s home, and stabbed him with “great force”, killing him.

Reported the BBC, “According to the Chinese press, more and more gamers are seeking justice through the courts over stolen weapons and credits accumulated in games.”

Despite the second quote I still maintain a personal belief that the lad in question was capable of such acts regardless of the fact he played computer games. I mean would you say "legend of mir 3" was more violent than a game like Call of Duty or Gears of War? Both of which I play and strangely have no desire to get a chainsaw and cut people up .. but thats just me . I understand that the guy proberly spent a lot of hours playing the game in order to aquire the sword, but to kill over it?

Ouze wrote: The discussion about whether or not video games cause aggression in violence is not yet possible to have, as there have been a great many inconclusive studies on the topic.

I disagree completely. Again, look at how the military trains people to be able to kill. A LOT of studies went into figuring out the best way to do so. A lot of studies have shown that using modern training troopers are a lot more likely to pull a trigger on another human than in the past (using older training methods). I don't see how you can logically claim that those studies and the training techniques that resulted do not beter enable/prepare a trooper to pull a trigger and kill another human. The training does not cause the violence so your point is partially correct, but it sure as heck enables the troopers response. It has been shown that modern video games use many of the same techniques and in fact are used by the military because of that.

What reputable studies prove otherwise?

Mr Hyena wrote:

Maybe this would all blow over if we had real equality and moar pandering, after all these people are angry because they are oppressed and the police should be better off leaving rioters alone to calm down naturally and concentrate on the reasl evils like the EDL. While they arent about thats only further proof of their involvement by their conspicuous absense.

Opressed? they aren't oppressed. They just want free stuff. Leave rioters alone? What do you explain then to the people they threaten, rape, steal from and how do you compensate the store owners and companies who had buildings burned down? I don't think people fully appreciate the economic damage that has been done.

EDL haven't commited anything here. Animals went on riot. Obviously the animals are the criminals.

I think you might be missing the intended tone of that post.