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The internet -- a place where people are free to speak authoritatively on subjects about which they know little to nothing. We all understand that but it's just silly when name-brand journalism decides that's an okay standard, too.
His conclusion is that the new series is nothing more than a toy commercial, which he identifies as a "dreary" hallmark of the the 1980s. There are two equally valid reactions: (1) "well duh" and (2) "so what?" So first of all: cartoons never stopped being merchandising platforms, whatever appeal some (such as Avatar: the Last Airbender) might incidentally have had for adults. It seems likely that Mr. Lowery simply hasn't been a kid since the 1980s and, judging by his inability to judge Thundercats (then or now) on its own merits and faults, I'd say he's been too far above all of this "clunky dialogue" and these "familiar coming-of-age elements" to have noticed. It's no surprise that companies like to make money off of merchandising successful platforms. If the merchandise in question consists of toys and the platform is a cartoon does that make the relationship any more "dreary" than the merchandise being jerseys and sneakers and the platform being professional sports? How about if the merchandise is a magazine like Variety and the platform is Hollywood? Well, that's "duh" taken care of; moving on to "so what?"
Whether or not a show or movie can be used to generate a wider franchise has no relationship whatsoever to the quality of that show or movie. The first two Star Wars movies are generally well-received among critics and the Star Wars franchise is the holy grail of merchandising. That's just an obvious example, of course -- and I know that some folks will snub their noses at A New Hope and even (in astounding pretension) Empire Strikes Back. But let's face it: if you're too serious about "art," whatever that means to you, to enjoy Star Wars then looking for "art" on Cartoon Network is extra stupid. What's especially funny about Mr. Lowery's review is that he can't help but intermittently admit how good the new Thundercats actually is. He recognizes that, despite its "deficiencies," the show offers "some interesting twists" and even some "operatic tone." But, of course, the "grown up" bottom line is a cynical-by-which-I-mean-hackneyed sneer that the effort is all "about seeking to wring additional mileage" out of a property surviving on nostalgia value, i.e., the equivalent of life support in the lingo of fandom. I think some of you Dakkanauts may have seen the first couple of episodes of this new Thundercats. Some of you guys might have even seen some of the old series, maybe even when it was originally on TV. Whether of not you liked the old show, I think anybody who seriously likes animation (apparently not Brian Lowery?) can acknowledge that the new one is of very high quality.
If you haven't yet watched Thundercats and you do like cartoons (please note I said cartoons, not anime) then give Thundercats a try. Unless you are unable to value anything from which a corporation might derive financial benefit, I think you'll really like it.
This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2011/08/10 04:33:23
My step bro who was born in the 80's has a lot of nostalgia moments...He's showed me a lot of old cartoons from his time and Thundercats is one of them, I liked it I guess, not exactly my favorite but it was a lot better than the stuff they show nowadays...
Anyway I remember his reaction when he saw the advertisement, it was the same when he saw that they were remaking Voltron and anything else from his time that the producers have decided to dust off of the shelf. I generally agree with him on these things so I don't see why I would disagree now...
I'm just going to tell myself that your time has yet to come. Then again, with Transformers and G.I. Joe movies of this "quality" it looks like my time isn't turning out so well. But that's exactly why the new Thundercats stands out so brightly and why the review I linked above is totally inadequate.
Albatross wrote:
'What were the '80s like, Grandad?'
I really don't know if you can imagine what they were like.
We had a Conservative Govt. which was loathed by sections of the country, a dodgy economy and unemployment issues, especially amongst the young, there were riots on the streets and on the weekends there's nothing to really watch on the Tv except Dr. Who and endless versions of "talent" and variety shows. Oh, and lots of people were obsessed over a royal wedding.
It's lucky we've moved on so far.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
remilia_scarlet wrote:>implying that any remakes of old cartoons are worth a gak in comparison to the original.
What does this mean? I'm vaguely aware that it is something used on 4chan or something, but it means nothing to me, a veteran of various forums who chooses not to be involved with 4chan. Please explain what you are saying here.
DC:80SG+M+B+I+Pw40k97#+D+A++/wWD190R++T(S)DM+
htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
@htj: The little ">" at the beginning makes text green on 4chan and is usually employed to quote other anons. The ">implying [x]" usage means that one is critically summarizing the statement that would otherwise be quoted, undercutting its basic premise. It's often an attempt at irony.
So for example, I could do one for your post:
>implying that decent people can't use 4chan
@remilia_scarlet: you jelly
Automatically Appended Next Post: @htj: Oh I forgot to explain remilia_scarlet's point: (s)he is pointing out that I'm assuming a remake is worthwhile in the first place.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/12 17:05:31
More that decent people don't use 4chan, Manchu. What would their mothers think, hmm? Thanks for the rundown, now I know. And knowing is half the battle.
I wouldn't write off a remake as inevitably bad, there have been some great remakes that have vastly improved on the original in other genres. Sure, they're not common, but they exist.
Oh, and thanks for the comments on the show, Manchu. I think I might go check it out since I do, in fact, like cartoons.
DC:80SG+M+B+I+Pw40k97#+D+A++/wWD190R++T(S)DM+
htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
Right so you can see what passes for irony in my example there, where I'm suggesting that someone who doesn't know 4chan isn't a decent person BUT that's obviously just a sarcastic, self-deprecatory comment BUT that actually asserts the superiority of the initiated "in-crowd." In a community as limitlessly insecure as 4chan, posturing is onion-peel-thorough.
The remake is excellent -- it's far better than the original, actually, unless all you want is an '80s serial. And that's kind of my counterpoint, or at least one of them, to the reviewer: if really think this is just an '80s serial then you must have forgotten to watch children's TV since the '80s because they never went away -- and if this is one, then it stands out pretty strongly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/12 17:27:00
Man, that's Lewisian rabbit-hole deep. Thanks for the info, it's nice to learn about 4chan without having to get my feet wet, so to speak.
I have to say, I caught a few episodes of the original a while back, having not seen it since I was the target demographic, and it was kind of rubbish. Compared to some of the better cartoons being made today it just fell down completely. I wasn't really going to look into this as I don't like to encourage remakes, but from what you say I might just see if I can catch it.
DC:80SG+M+B+I+Pw40k97#+D+A++/wWD190R++T(S)DM+
htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
The third episode involved Lion-O's obsession with avenging his father leading the team into a sand-sea desert, where they were captured by a group of koi-like pirates. Their captain is a take on Ahab but instead of a white whale there is a giant, plant-like sand-jellyfish, which had destroyed the koi-pirates oasis home in times past. Will Lion-O face down his own obsessive rage by joining up with the pirate captain on his foolhardy quest to dispatch the plant-jellyfish? If this sounds interesting to you, then by all means give the show a chance. It's also extraordinarily pretty -- like Avatar: The Last Airbender pretty or even a bit better.
The Voltron remake, by comparison, has been extremely disappointing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/08/12 17:42:59
In all honesty, I think anyone can come up with a thousand reasons to call the new Thundercats crappy and frankly it is. The writing is atrocious, the pacing breakneck and much too fast, and the dialogue tends to be whatever is convenient at the time. The sad part is that the series really could be quite good. The animation is appealing, the story line concepts are intriguing.
To break it down:
Spoiler:
The premier frankly was rushed. The episode did a decent job at set up, but built no suspense. The betrayal was obvious from the get go, which is common so I don't hold that against the writers but Mummy-dude's appearance involved absolutely no foreshadowing other than Lion-O's future sight thingy, which I really didn't feel was enough to foreshadow the characters eventual appearance, which is a shame because the way he appeared was pretty awesome and I did not see coming. Sadly the show spent about 45 minutes with its set up and the action packed ending felt to rushed to be enjoyable.
The third episode really disappointed me, more because it could have actually been pretty good if they had taken more time with it. Kit and Kat just magically appear (I'll also point out the series has not explained where all the other Thundercats went. It seems to imply they're all dead or gone but idk what that means).
The episode also shows Mummrah back at his castle and Lion-O and the others walking openly around a castle that I'd have expected to be swarming the guards looking for them. Kit and Kat just get thrown in, something that really should have been an episode of its own to transition from the premier to the series storyline imo. The idea for Ramlak Rising was a cliched Moby Dick episode but a very very appropriate one for Lion-O's development arc I think. My main complaint is that the episode again felt rushed (maybe if Kit and Kat's intro had its own episode they could have saved like, 6 or 7 minutes?). I espeically rolled my eyes when Lion-O goes from "The fish guy just tried to kill us" to "The fish guy is my best friend" within a matter of seconds at the flip of a coin. Another minute of conversation would have resolved that more effectively.
The end of the episode was the worst imo. Randomly at the end, Lion-O goes from "who cares about what the crew wants" to "the crew is dying!" Then, rather than ending the story with the death of the captain because he got killed because of his own rage, letting us see the moral of the story, they get in a "Look at Lion-O look how awesome he is" moment that has no real purpose in the story other than to be there.
I think the main problem is that the writers are rushing the story line. Kit and Kat joining the group needed their own episode which could have doubled as a transition from the premier to main story line by showing the aftermath and explaining outright where all the Thundercats went! My guess is that they're all dead since the city is revealed to be burning to the ground but come on. Kit and Kat survived so having them all just magically disappear without a statement of their fate is confusing. Doing this would have also added another 7-9 minutes for Ramlak Rising which was time the episode could have really used to improve its own story.
EDIT: I'd also suggest that I find the lack of knowledge about technology dubious. The fish folk had it, and the Lizards apparently found some some (which is also a little ambiguous as to how they found it).
I'd also put forward the idea that some of the characters have no personality. Cheetarah especially, tends to just say or do whatever is convenient at the time or just stand around with this goofy look on her face. Tigra at first looked like he'd have some interesting personality, disliking Lion-O becoming king, but that got dropped pretty fast (It's almost like the writers realized they'd have to resolve a character conflict and shied away from it... Though I won't be shocked to see it randomly rear its head in later episodes). Lion-O has some personality but it's pretty cliche prince whose kingdom just got blown up personality and is very predictable. He still has a tendency to say/do whatever is convenient. Kit and Kat just... appeared. They're annoyingly childish, but in a children show I can't say that's surprising. I also lost interest in them when they see a shelter get blown up and apparently have no reaction other than a snippy quip. I get that their orphans, but I'd dare say they're sociopathic. The world around them just got blown to pieces, they see people die, and it has utterly no effect on those chipper little personalities. I get it. They're the happy-go-lucky aspect of the group. But even happy-go-lucky can show confusion, fear, and and uncertainty in the aftermath of an entire civilization getting blown to pieces!
On the bright side, Snarf is no where near as annoying as he used to be, which is an excellent improvement
So far character development has been horrible and is compounding the problems with the story line's pacing.
Kids can like the show sure. But kids can enjoy just about anything if they sit down for a few minutes. The remake is a crappy series so far. The Last Airbender was a very well written series with compelling characters and story line able to draw in all ages. Thundercats 2011 is not that kind of show. But I'm really really hoping it will improve because the writers have a lot of good ideas. Their execution is just atrocious. I'm going to keep watching for now with hopes that they realize this and work on improving the quality.
EDIT: I'd also point out that many 80's cartoon series were accused of being toy advertisements. This isn't a new criticism. Transformers, Voltron, and Thundercats (the originals) all that that leveled against them. The entire Transformers movie was actually panned by many people who thought the producers were just killing off all the old characters so they could introduce the new toy line. Transformers is still a massive toy advertisement. Didn't stop Beast Wars from being epic, or the new Hub series from being decent (In other words I don't see accusing a TV series of being an advertisement as a valid criticism and agree with Manchu on that one).
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2011/08/12 19:37:22
@LordofHats: On the one hand, you complain that the show is developing too fast and, on the other hand, you complain that characters have underdeveloped personalities. In this same vein, you go on about the unknown fate of the other cats ... so do you know too much too soon or do you not know enough/are you learning thing too slowly? Your criticism comes off mostly as you not being told the story like you want it to be told to you rather than an appraisal of the series on its own terms. The only point that you brought up which has even occurred to me is the fate of the other cats -- but it didn't affect my enjoyment because I could imagine that they were taken prisoner/put into camps/etc given that no one except for the main cast were "in hiding" throughout the rest of the invasion night/next morning. TBH, my exact thought at the time was "they'll get to that."
As for Wiley Kit and Kat being emotionally insensitive to the world around them, I'd take a look at episode 4 (that's right -- there are only four episodes after all), where they both bawl after having witnessed a death. There are other examples, which you have totally glossed over, of the incremental exposition of the main cast members' personalities: What about Tigra's fight in the arena against Lion-O? What about their argument with regard to the lizard prisoners? What about their relationship to their father? That's just covering Tigra. There's a good amount of set-up for Cheethara, too, illustrating the blurriness of her devotion to the throne versus Lion-O (the slow romance arc) although another part of her characterization -- being mysterious and mystical -- means that we'll only get to know her well over time. Saying that the show is "crappy" for a "thousand reasons" including "atrocious" execution is overblown nonsense.
Hopefully we can forgive me habit of hyperbole. I will admit that my biggest problem with the show is the pacing. I feel that more time could have been taken with the past three episodes (especially the beginning of episode 3).
I concede I enjoyed episode 4 much much more than the previous 3 Another well thought out idea for an episode and though it was much too corny for my taste my only real complaint is that I think the moral of the story could have been a little more subtle. I felt like I was being brow beaten with it every couple of minutes. Definitely an improvement though. I'm still holding out the hope that the series will get better as it goes along.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/08/15 20:22:39
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Thanks for the rundown, now I know. And knowing is half the battle.
Another well thought out idea for an episode and though it was much too corny for my taste my only real complaint is that I think the moral of the story could have been a little more subtle. I felt like I was being brow beaten with it every couple of minutes. Definitely an improvement though. I'm still holding out the hope that the series will get better as it goes along.