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Dear Dakka Dakka members
I am getting ready for 2000pts tournament.
Tell me your opinion of this list

Dorn Lysander
Pedro Kantor
6 Sternguard veterans
3 combi-meltas 2 combi-plasmas PF
5 Sternguard veterans(Kantor inside)
2 combi melts HF combi plasma
5 TH SS termies(dorn inside)
5 Scouts with sniper rifles cammo cloaks and missile launcher
10 Tactical Marines
Plasma cannon meltagun PF
3 Razorbacks
1 rhino
1 Land Raider redeemer
10 devastators
4 plasma cannons
predator with AC HB

I need your help urgently!

Dorn augments shooty termies, not those TH/SS ones. Either put him with some with Storm bolters (and an AC) or there's really no need to include him. In facter, there's no real reason to have him in that list anyway. He's 200 points of pretty wasted space (the unit he's with doesn't benefit from his ability!)
Your tactical squad should be either melta-gun MM or Melta-gun-ML (maybe shift a flamer for the melta-gun). They have no reason to have that PF (if they get into close vehicle combat, they're probably going to get annihilated).

Devestators should only be run as 4ML or 3ML, 1LC. Plasma cannons are a waste on them. You want them long-range anti-tank/infantry. The plasma cannons simply aren't worth those points. As well, there is no reason for you to have 10 devestators. Give them a razorback to babysit them at 5 (maybe a TLLC razor to add some more anti-tank).

With the Loss of Dorn, the PF, and those extra devs (only run 'em 5, 4ML or 3ML,1lc [i repeat this]), you'll have 305extra points. For this list, you could take another squad of tacticals with rhino and then like a whirwhild or something (or predator).
Or I'd prefer it if you grabed two dreadnoughts, MM/HF w/drop pods.

Those changes should really power-up this list.
No matter what, though, lose those 5 extra devs (give them 4ML or 3ML, 1LC. I'm saying it 3 times because it is that important). Lose Dorn, he has no use being with those TH/SS termies (really want to get them something? Maybe a libby?). Lose the other plasmacannon and that Tac PF. Especially that Plasma cannon. It is not worth it.

I think the list would be better as a Vulkan list - thunderhammers, melta, flamers become twin-linked ...

List is then presumably a charge across the board with rhinos/landraider in a block. You haven't said what loadout the razors have?

Sternguard, keep the melta but I would take maybe a flamer rather than plasma.

Don't really like the devastator squad with plasma - too expensive.

With the tank charge you really need some anti-mech/distraction in their back lines. I would drop the pred and devastator squad and look at MM/HF speeders and a drop-pod - possibly with a dread in. These will be the immediate threat and allow your main army to reach the enemy T2 mostly intact. Just an idea ...

Hashbeth wrote:

Devestators should only be run as 4ML or 3ML, 1LC. Plasma cannons are a waste on them. You want them long-range anti-tank/infantry. The plasma cannons simply aren't worth those points. As well, there is no reason for you to have 10 devestators. Give them a razorback to babysit them at 5 (maybe a TLLC razor to add some more anti-tank).

Your advice is usually spot on, but here I'd disagree. The adventage in having more bodies in the Devs is simply having more bodies. U can throw the newbie brothers i.e the ones without a heavy weapon, in the way of a stray bolter shot and not worry about the outcome. If you have a squad of 5 with 4 weapons and a sergeant, each loss hurts you dearly.

Alkasyn wrote:

Hashbeth wrote:

Devestators should only be run as 4ML or 3ML, 1LC. Plasma cannons are a waste on them. You want them long-range anti-tank/infantry. The plasma cannons simply aren't worth those points. As well, there is no reason for you to have 10 devestators. Give them a razorback to babysit them at 5 (maybe a TLLC razor to add some more anti-tank).

Your advice is usually spot on, but here I'd disagree. The adventage in having more bodies in the Devs is simply having more bodies. U can throw the newbie brothers i.e the ones without a heavy weapon, in the way of a stray bolter shot and not worry about the outcome. If you have a squad of 5 with 4 weapons and a sergeant, each loss hurts you dearly.

This is why I think 5 is min/max, 10 is a waste, 8 is optimum.

Deuce11 wrote:This is why I think 5 is min/max, 10 is a waste, 8 is optimum.

Only problem here is that 8 gives you a wierd number of points to play with, so there is no way to completely fill out the 2000pt cap. Leave the 10. When I hear dev squad, I think high priority. Not necessarily will I go after them, but it does cause a bit of panic from the opponent. Honestly though, if you keep Dorn, put him with a Dev squad of 4 HB! That is the ultimate use of his Bolter Drill. And, if someone comes to "Smash the Shooty things", his hammer and CC abilities will save them considerably.

Who panics when they see vanilla devs?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lysander is a combat beast. why is he in a stagnant Dev squad? does he grant relentless or something I am not aware of?

Bolter Drill. Reroll all hits. With 4HB, thats not bad. And he would be like a bodyguard.

And lots of people. The devs don't have to be scary, but the name alone causes second guessing. Like a Vindicator. Not necessarily scary, but a lot of people treat it as a high priority.

Not to be a dick but... I'd take two 85 point dakka preds over an over priced dev squad and a 200 point character. Think about it.

Put Lysander with Sternguard. TL special issue ammo? Sign me up. And he's an absolute CC beast when the time comes. Yeah buddy. DON'T put him with HB Dev Squads. What a waste.

He's okay with Tac Termies too... TL Storm Bolters help shore them up in comparison to other options, and he provides them with defense against one of their weaknesses (intermittent low-AP shooting).

Deuce11 wrote:Not to be a dick but... I'd take two 85 point dakka preds over an over priced dev squad and a 200 point character. Think about it.

Idea was that if he was going to use a dev squad, it might as well me maxed out to it's potential. But yea, preds > Devs...

You take a dev squad for the MLs (and maybe an LC). You shouldn't have to give them extra bodies for fodder. Your devs are there for very long range support. yes, a huge long range template could take them out, but at that point, who cares about 3 extra bodies, they're all pretty much screwed, anyway. As well, if a LC focuses on them (or some other very long range, powerful thing) that's great. Rather it be one of them than a rhino or landraider filled with pain.
Anyone who sees devs as a high priority is doing you a favor. Have them waste time on that and move up other things. Every shot not bothering your landraider or predator will be a win for you. Those devs are helpful for their split roll, but they aren't your game winner, and they're not going to be really focused. If you're worried, give them a TLLC razorback to baby sit them. It costs less points than 5 extra marines, and it will be a fire magnet. Of course, just throwing your devs in cover at distance also works.
Kantor and Dorn are awesome, but I think they work better separately. Build one focusing on Dorn, lose Kantor (throw in some tacticals, keep dorn with some sternguards or somethign) and have a ball. Or lose Dorn, keep kantor, and throw in some nice extra hitters.
I think the main issue, I find, is that you have a lot of extra stuff you don't need. The plasma cannons, the pf on the tac squad, 5 extra devs, it's all extra. Losing that alone could get you close to 150-200. That's a dread w/drop pod. Lose dorn or Pedro, and that rises to 350-400 points. That's a lot of wiggle room!
But before any more comments come in, I'd ask the OP to post a modified list, so we can see what direction he/she would like to head in. That way we can better tailor our suggestions.

Thank you guys for your fast and useful replies!
I was in a hurry making that list.
Before posting a new one I would like to hear your opinion on the following.
Dorn gives you ability to fortify one of your covers and that means that my dev squad can get 3+ cover save.

In my opinion 10 men dev squads work the best as you can combat squad them and have 2 guys with plasma in one squad and 2 guys with plasma in another.
I tried to use ML in my previous lists but as i play against CSM a lot they never do their job, especially when you face a plague marines army.
I tried a very similar list before and the main problem was that I was very weak in melee. I would like to add some close combat power to my list.

HQ
Pedro Kantor 175pts
Honor guard 225pts
champion with relic blade, chapter banner
Elites
10 men sternguard squad 275pts
4 combi-meltas 2 combi plasmas
6 sternguard veterans 175pts
3 combi meltas 2 combi plasmas
5 TH/SS termies 200pts
Troops
5 men scout squad 110
sniper rifles ML Cammo Cloaks
10 men marine squad 185pts
LC melta gun
Dedicated Transports
Razorback 45
Razorback 45
Razorback 45
Razorback 45
God Hummer Land Raider 250pts
Heavy Support
10 men dev squad(going to combat squad them) 270pts
2 PC
2 LC

I can also try to get rid of Land raider with termies which gives me 450 spare points and take some preds and speders but in that case my army will be too weak in melee.
Should i go for different Hq?
The only reason why i take Pedro is because of his stubborn rule ans ability to make my sternguard scouring.

I want my army to be good in reacting my enemy actions. I want to have some good specialized shooty units combined with some fast melee specialists. I dont like units that are good in general. I like units that are good in their very own way. I prefer SPEED to TOUGHNESS.
Maybe It i should continue playing Space wolves or Blood angels codex? Or maybe eldars fit me the best.

Kantor and Honour guard are hardly slouches in CC, although when put in a razorback they can't assualt. As you have a spare HS slot then why not stick them in a LR redeemer? I would be tempted to also stick a librarian in there with the points saved from the termies being dropped. You can drop the chapter banner as the bonus attack from Kantor does not stack.

I would give the dev squad a rhino, so those 2 lascannons can sit inside and shoot. Very annoying.

A kantor list does need the sternguard and the honour guard to work, so is restricting elsewhere.