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What the title says, im guessing that your thinking why I asked.

Long story short my friend says that on a 4+ it penetrates (Because it has the rending rule), and so he dose this in a game I had with him and on the 1st turn he "penetrates" my land raider and then proceeds to roll a 6 on the damage table.

Was he correct?

Cheers to all comments

He was not correct. Read the rules for Rending on page 31 of the BRB.

You could just read the rending rule in the brb...

Anyway, if he hit it, and rolled a 6 to pen, then rolled a 5-6 on the rending roll... he can pen it with a 16.

3 - 6 on the D3 roll is sufficient to pen, 1 - 2 will glance, if you have cheaty GK ones

juraigamer wrote:You could just read the rending rule in the brb...

Anyway, if he hit it, and rolled a 6 to pen, then rolled a 5-6 on the rending roll... he can pen it with a 16.

Ok on my fault I will have to explain what he did:

Firstly he rolled to hit, 4 hit.

Then he rolled to penetrate 1 rolled a 6.

He then said his stupid rule (4+) rolled the die and it was a 6.

Then on the damage chart he rolled another 6.

as you see since he has NO lascannons or melta weaponry as he thinks that assault cannons are the future (I find this funny as he plays salamanders)

So was he correct?

Cheers to all comments

He was correct. Read the rending rule - if you roll a 6 to penetrate you get +D3 additional penetration.

S6 + 6 + 5or6 = 15 - penetrate
S6 + 6 + 3or4 = 14 - glance
S6 + 6 + 1or2 = 13 - fail

That result is correct for a standard assault cannon. Read the Rending rule in the book to find out why.

This is still vastly less reliable than melta.

happygolucky wrote:as you see since he has NO lascannons or melta weaponry as he thinks that assault cannons are the future (I find this funny as he plays salamanders)

He's kinda right. An assault cannon has a better chance of penetrating than a lascannon (worse per shot but it gets four tries). Not better than melta but more consistent (multiple shots will always run closer to average than single shot weapons)

Scott-S6 wrote:

happygolucky wrote:as you see since he has NO lascannons or melta weaponry as he thinks that assault cannons are the future (I find this funny as he plays salamanders)

He's kinda right. An assault cannon has a better chance of penetrating than a lascannon (worse per shot but it gets four tries). Not better than melta but more consistent (multiple shots will always run closer to average than single shot weapons)

That scares me, that scares me a lot....

It really shouldnt.

What your friend did was lucky and won't happen often.

juraigamer wrote:You could just read the rending rule in the brb...

Anyway, if he hit it, and rolled a 6 to pen, then rolled a 5-6 on the rending roll... he can pen it with a 16.

How he could get 16 from 6+d6+d3 is beyond me. When I went to school, the maximum that could yield was 15 (still enough to pen a land raider though) - 6+6+3=15.

Steelmage99 wrote:It really shouldnt.

What your friend did was lucky and won't happen often.

It actually does, he dose roll 6's every where (and before anyone comments on loaded dice, he has rolled my dice and the 6's follow him).

happygolucky wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

happygolucky wrote:as you see since he has NO lascannons or melta weaponry as he thinks that assault cannons are the future (I find this funny as he plays salamanders)

He's kinda right. An assault cannon has a better chance of penetrating than a lascannon (worse per shot but it gets four tries). Not better than melta but more consistent (multiple shots will always run closer to average than single shot weapons)

That scares me, that scares me a lot....

Well if that's a Blood Angel landraider, just bring some Necron allies. An assult cannon can't even scratch the paint of a monolith.

Stonerhino wrote:

happygolucky wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

happygolucky wrote:as you see since he has NO lascannons or melta weaponry as he thinks that assault cannons are the future (I find this funny as he plays salamanders)

He's kinda right. An assault cannon has a better chance of penetrating than a lascannon (worse per shot but it gets four tries). Not better than melta but more consistent (multiple shots will always run closer to average than single shot weapons)

That scares me, that scares me a lot....

Well if that's a Blood Angel landraider, just bring some Necron allies. An assult cannon can't even scratch the paint of a monolith.

It was a chaos landraider .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chromedog wrote:

juraigamer wrote:You could just read the rending rule in the brb...

Anyway, if he hit it, and rolled a 6 to pen, then rolled a 5-6 on the rending roll... he can pen it with a 16.

How he could get 16 from 6+d6+d3 is beyond me. When I went to school, the maximum that could yield was 15 (still enough to pen a land raider though) - 6+6+3=15.

So how dose he gain the D3 (I am reading the rulebook cant find anything to support this)

Take the bones of a dead cat and burn them,while chanting "he will only get 1s,he will only get ones...."untill the flames die completely.Then avoid abilities that cause STR,toughness,Int tests.LD tests are unavoidable,but his psychic tests will be all PoTW.Mwahahahahahahahahah.....

happygolucky wrote:So how dose he gain the D3 (I am reading the rulebook cant find anything to support this)

Rending P31

Scott-S6 wrote:

happygolucky wrote:So how dose he gain the D3 (I am reading the rulebook cant find anything to support this)

Rending P31

Cheers

Chance to glance or pen vs. AV 14 with S9 WS 4:
(4/6)*(2/6) = 0.222222 ~ 22%

Change to glance or pen vs AV 14 S6 rending WS4:
(4/6)*(1/6)*(4/6) = 0.074074 ~ 7.5%

Now I have to go to compliments 'cause it's been too long since I did statistics:
Chance to do nothing with one shot from S6 rending WS4:
1 - 0.075 = 0.925
Change to do nothing with 4 shots:
(0.925)^4= 0.732094

1 - 0.732 = ~ 26.8% chance to glance or pen with 4 assault cannon shots.

So against a land raider the mathhammer makes them pretty even. But on the board the longer range of the LC should definitely give it the edge because you're more likely to actually have a shot.

So assault cannons are one str less then I thought, shows you how much I run into them/use them

You are probably thinking of autocannon which are S7

kmdl1066 wrote:You are probably thinking of autocannon which are S7

Or of psycannons, who are indeed S7.

Or psybolt ammo Assault Cannons, which are S7

Twin linked assault cannons will hit 88 percent of the time. Also 4 percent is not that insignificant. That is 1 in 25 or about 1 hit for an entire game. Assault canons should hit 7 times in a game that lasts 6 turns. Out of the 7 hits there should be at least one rend.

Tllc will have .88 hits
Twin assault cannons will have 2.49 hits

This gives versatility to the gun. Range is half the length but statistics always gives you the benefit when you have more dice to roll

rogueeyes wrote:Twin linked assault cannons will hit 88 percent of the time. Also 4 percent is not that insignificant. That is 1 in 25 or about 1 hit for an entire game. Assault canons should hit 7 times in a game that lasts 6 turns.

Assault Cannons have 4 shots.

Here's a little chart for you, from http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4872047 :

Single Assault Cannon

AV10
4x(66.7%) chance to hit = 2.667 hits at BS4
2.667x(33.3%) chance to penetrate = 0.888 Penetrating Hits
0.888x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 29.570% chance of destroying AV10

AV11
4x(66.7%) chance to hit = 2.667 hits at BS4
2.667x(16.7%) chance to penetrate = 0.444 Penetrating Hits
0.444x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 14.785% chance of destroying AV11

AV12
4x(66.7%) chance to hit = 2.667 hits at BS4
2.667x(16.7%) chance to penetrate = 0.444 Penetrating Hits
0.444 x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 14.785% chance of destroying AV12

AV13
4x(66.7%) chance to hit = 2.667 hits at BS4
2.667x(11.1%) chance to penetrate (16.7% to rend and 66.7% to roll a 3+) = 0.296 penetrating hits
0.296x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 9.857% chance of destroying AV 13

AV14
4x(66.7%) chance to hit = 2.667 hits at BS4
2.667x(5.6%) chance to penetrate (16.7% to rend and 33.3% to roll a 5+) = 0.147 penetrating hits
0.147x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 4.895% chance of destroying AV 14

Single Lascannon

AV10
1x(66.7%) chance to hit = 0.667 hits at BS4
0.667x(83.3%) chance to penetrate = 0.556 Penetrating Hits
0.556x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 18.515% chance of destroying AV10

AV11
1x(66.7%) chance to hit = 0.667 hits at BS4
0.667x(66.7%) chance to penetrate = 0.445 Penetrating Hits
0.445x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 14.819% chance of destroying AV11

AV12
1x(66.7%) chance to hit = 0.667 hits at BS4
0.667x(50.0%) chance to penetrate = 0.333 Penetrating Hits
0.333x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 11.089% chance of destroying AV12

AV13
1x(66.7%) chance to hit = 0.667 hits at BS4
0.667x(33.3%) chance to penetrate = 0.222 Penetrating Hits
0.222x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 7.393% chance of destroying AV 13

AV14
1x(66.7%) chance to hit = 0.667 hits at BS4
0.667x(16.7%) chance to penetrate = 0.111 Penetrating Hits
0.111x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 3.696% chance of destroying AV 14

Twin Linked Assault Cannon

AV10
4x(88.9%) chance to hit = 3.556 hits at BS4
3.556x(33.3%) chance to penetrate = 1.184 Penetrating Hits
1.184x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 39.077% chance of destroying AV10

AV11
4x(88.9%) chance to hit = 3.556 hits at BS4
3.556x (16.7%) chance to penetrate = 0.594 Penetrating Hits
0.594x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 19.780% chance of destroying AV11

AV12
4x(88.9%) chance to hit = 3.556 hits at BS4
3.556x (16.7%) chance to penetrate = 0.594 Penetrating Hits
0.594x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 19.780% chance of destroying AV12

AV13
4x(88.9%) chance to hit = 3.556 hits at BS4
3.556x (11.1%) chance to penetrate (16.7% to rend and 66.7% to roll a 3+) = 0.395 penetrating hits
0.395x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 13.154% chance of destroying AV 13

AV14
4x(88.9%) chance to hit = 3.556 hits at BS4
3.556x (5.6%) chance to penetrate (16.7% to rend and 33.3% to roll a 5+) = 0.199 penetrating hits
0.199x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 6.631% chance of destroying AV 14

Twin Linked Lascannon

AV10
1x(88.9%)chance to hit = 0.889 hits at BS4
0.889x(83.3%) chance to penetrate = 0.741 Penetrating Hits
0.741x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 24.675% chance of destroying AV10

AV11
1x(88.9%)chance to hit = 0.889 hits at BS4
0.889x (66.7%) chance to penetrate = 0.593 Penetrating Hits
0.593x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 19.747% chance of destroying AV11

AV12
1x(88.9%)chance to hit = 0.889 hits at BS4
0.889x (50.0%) chance to penetrate = 0.445 Penetrating Hits
0.445x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 14.819% chance of destroying AV12

AV13
1x(88.9%)chance to hit = 0.889 hits at BS4
0.889x (33.3%) chance to penetrate = 0.296 Penetrating Hits
0.296x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 9.858% chance of destroying AV 13

AV14
1x(88.9%)chance to hit = 0.889 hits at BS4
0.889x (16.7%) chance to penetrate = 0.148 Penetrating Hits
0.148x(33.3%) chance to wreck or explode = 4.944% chance of destroying AV 14

The only thing these tables show is the weapons probability to DESTROY a vehicle at the list armor values. I did not take the time to calculate the probability for a simple damage result, which would be dealing with far larger numbers across the board. Additionally, I did not calculate the probability for a Twin linked Assault Cannon because doing a Binomial Distribution and factoring in a reroll across 4D6 is beyond my mathematical prowess. Should anyone care to do so, be my guest.

As you can see, the Assault Cannon performs better than the Lascannon across the board, and when Twin Linked, the Lascannons numbers only just edge out the single Assault Cannons numbers. The only advantage a Lascannon has over an Assault Cannon against Vehicles is range.

Against infantry and MC's the Twin Linked Assault Cannon is also the clear victor with a constant 59.4% chance to cause a wound with no armor save regardless of toughness, plus any additional hits that roll sufficiently high enough to wound but don't rend. Against T8 the Assault Cannon has a 59.4% chance to wound with no armor save and the Lascannon has a 59.3% chance to wound with no armor save. Of course both weapons suffer when you factor cover into the equation but the Assault Cannon still wins overall by a large margin as toughness drops, with more than a 130% chance to kill a Space Marine.





This is why all my Razorbacks have Twin-Linked AsCans.

Well that might be true for razor backs, but there's one thing to keep in mind: Range. How many shots will an AC get over the LC?
I think it is safe to assume that 48" range vs. the 24" range would give the TLLC 1.5 times as many shots as the TLAC.
At a 1.5 shot increase (assuming 6 turns, that's 4 shots for the TLAC and 6 for the TLLC...I don't think that is that unreasonable), the TLLC outperforms the TLAC in every category except AV 10 for penetrating hits (but for AV 11, the TLLC has a 10% increase over the TLAC, at 29.5% vs. 19.7%).
So yes, if all targets begin within 24" of each other, then yes, the TLAC wins this battle. If we assume, however, that the 4 foot range of the TLLC increases the amount of shots it may fire, then you will see very drastic changes. Really the TLLC starts to gain this advantage at 1.35 times as many shots as the TLAC.

The issue here is when you'll get to fire. If you think you can get those TLAC razors up into battle and shooting on the first turn, then maybe you have something. But that 24" is a hassle. And, of course, the razor can end up dead at those ranges (there are many more threats at 24" than 48").
So then it comes down to roll.

For the razorback the argument is definitely a good one. You want the flexibility and it usually is carrying something up close, anyway.

For the overall, though, as was mentioned earlier, think twice. I'll tell you that by the time you get an AC into the range of a raider, it will either jump it with whatever it's carrying, or kill it with its own (if it's LRR/LRC) and then use its other weapons to mop up. Not counting the nillas' godhammers (double those percentages for those TLLC sponsoons).

So the AC is a useful addition to Tac Termies, razorbacks, and other things that will be within the 24" and want to stay there. However, for actual anti-tank, the LC still wins out the day, overall, with its range (and the survivability that grants).
And, again, the TLAC's usefulness lasts only until the 12" range. Then the MM takes the cake (sure it only has .667 to hit, but it also pens a raider 41% of the time. Assuming you have 50% chance to destroy, and including chance to miss, you succeed 13.66% of the time. Against av 12 this rises to 29.6%)

So the TLAC's range role is useful from 24" to 12". This means it is excellent for sternguard 5 man squads, a combat squad of marines (arguable about the combat squad and whether the rhino is more useful).

So before your friend goes touting the AC as the future, remember that it is only superior in a 24"-12" range.
Anyway food for thought, and a grounding for those statistics (before getting carried away in that specific set of mathhammer)

Hashbeth wrote:Well that might be true for razor backs, but there's one thing to keep in mind: Range. How many shots will an AC get over the LC?
I think it is safe to assume that 48" range vs. the 24" range would give the TLLC 1.5 times as many shots as the TLAC.
At a 1.5 shot increase (assuming 6 turns, that's 4 shots for the TLAC and 6 for the TLLC...I don't think that is that unreasonable), the TLLC outperforms the TLAC in every category except AV 10 for penetrating hits (but for AV 11, the TLLC has a 10% increase over the TLAC, at 29.5% vs. 19.7%).

You're also assuming Vanilla Marines/Wolves vs. Black Templars/Blood Angels. Vanilla Marines and Wolves, the Twin-linked lascannons (or lascannon/plasma-gun) are better choices for range. Blood Angels, most notably, have a 36" threat range with their assault cannons.

Hashbeth wrote:So yes, if all targets begin within 24" of each other, then yes, the TLAC wins this battle. If we assume, however, that the 4 foot range of the TLLC increases the amount of shots it may fire, then you will see very drastic changes. Really the TLLC starts to gain this advantage at 1.35 times as many shots as the TLAC.

The issue here is when you'll get to fire. If you think you can get those TLAC razors up into battle and shooting on the first turn, then maybe you have something. But that 24" is a hassle. And, of course, the razor can end up dead at those ranges (there are many more threats at 24" than 48").
So then it comes down to roll.

I think you're keeping your hypothetical battle much too static. A lascannon does not sit simply 24" outside of a AsCan's bubble and just stay there. More often than not, a lascannon that can move and shoot has a payload that it wants to deliver. Not only that, but there are other things in the army that should be dealing with whatever are carrying lascannons, be they predators or Land Raiders. To the point, though, any marine army can be within AsCan range in 1 turn. Blood Angels, quite easily, and Vanilla marines, by moving full speed, popping smoke, then moving 6" the next turn. That's a 42" threat range by turn 2. And that is if the Lascannon-wielding unit does not move forward at all. So, while the comparisons are nice, I think theoryhammer falls a little short here.

Hashbeth wrote:For the overall, though, as was mentioned earlier, think twice. I'll tell you that by the time you get an AC into the range of a raider, it will either jump it with whatever it's carrying, or kill it with its own (if it's LRR/LRC) and then use its other weapons to mop up. Not counting the nillas' godhammers (double those percentages for those TLLC sponsoons).

This has turned more into Tactics than YMDC, but I think we're veering into looking at armies as a whole. If you take a Land Raider versus a Razorback with AsCan and compare them, then sure, the results are going to be skewed. But, I can get 5 AsCan Razorbacks for the same price as that Land Raider. So, it is sort of a moot point to talk about them in those sorts of terms.

Hashbeth wrote:So the AC is a useful addition to Tac Termies, razorbacks, and other things that will be within the 24" and want to stay there. However, for actual anti-tank, the LC still wins out the day, overall, with its range (and the survivability that grants).
And, again, the TLAC's usefulness lasts only until the 12" range. Then the MM takes the cake (sure it only has .667 to hit, but it also pens a raider 41% of the time. Assuming you have 50% chance to destroy, and including chance to miss, you succeed 13.66% of the time. Against av 12 this rises to 29.6%)

So the TLAC's range role is useful from 24" to 12". This means it is excellent for sternguard 5 man squads, a combat squad of marines (arguable about the combat squad and whether the rhino is more useful).

So before your friend goes touting the AC as the future, remember that it is only superior in a 24"-12" range.
Anyway food for thought, and a grounding for those statistics (before getting carried away in that specific set of mathhammer)

I don't think AsCan's should be touted as reliable anti-tank against Land Raiders at all. But light vehicles, and just about anything else, give me AsCans. While that Twin-Linked Lascannon may perform as well as an AsCan while they're both at 24" range, the AsCan will kill 2-3 more marines than the Twin-Linked Lascannon. If I face a horde of 180 Boyz, those twin-linked lascannons aren't going to do much for me at all.

Not to attack the As can on the Razorback. The razor is, indeed, best fit with the AC imo. You are absolutely correct on this point.

Also I was indeed counting nilla marines, as I thought that was the Op's friend's army. In other armies, such as BA, the AC is a better choice. But as he did not specify, I assumed the standard AC in the BRB.

As for the idea of static: I was counting the weapon AC vs. the weapon LC, not whether on vehicles or other such issues. As you rightly said, on razorbacks, the AC is a better choice. As an overall weapon, though, there is still room for open debate. And we don't have count the tactical ideas of whether it will survive or not for that to still be true.

So I think this is a question of semantics, and I am just going by the OP. He said that his friend would be getting them for everything, and they were the future. Overall this is not the case. They are, however, the best choice for certain vehicle types, and perhaps certain armies. And as the OP didn't not specify a marine chapter, I assumed Nilla marines (they normally say BA or some such).

happygolucky wrote:

juraigamer wrote:You could just read the rending rule in the brb...

Anyway, if he hit it, and rolled a 6 to pen, then rolled a 5-6 on the rending roll... he can pen it with a 16.

Ok on my fault I will have to explain what he did:

Firstly he rolled to hit, 4 hit.

Then he rolled to penetrate 1 rolled a 6.

He then said his stupid rule (4+) rolled the die and it was a 6.

Then on the damage chart he rolled another 6.

as you see since he has NO lascannons or melta weaponry as he thinks that assault cannons are the future (I find this funny as he plays salamanders)

So was he correct?

Cheers to all comments

You friend was wrong about the 4+. It is roll a six and it rends, allowing you to roll a further d3. So he has strength six, he rolled to pen and got a 6. That makes it S12 vs armor 14. he then rolls a D3, he gets a six which is 3 more strength to his weapon. That makeshis AC S15 vs your LC's 14 armor rating That is a penetrating hit on the damage table.