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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Kidou Senshi GUNDAM came out in 1979, and Robotech came to the US in the early 80s, so mecha robots are just as ingrained in people's consciousness over the past 30-odd years. There is just as much potential for a "simplified" wargame with lots of recognizable parts for GW customers.

Yes and no. Yes, "mecha" is recognizable, no doubt. But the people that like it, and want to play with them is , I think, a much lower percentage compared with the people that want to wargame WWII. So there would be potential, but I wouldn't say that there's "as much potential".

And then there's the fact that HG is no Robotech, or Gundam. The scale is completely off, the designs are not the ones that people know. It's as if someone develops an X-Wing clone, only with a new IP and completely unknown fighters. Will it be a good game? Possibly. Will it be somewhere near to as marketable and successful as X-Wing? I really don't think so. Will people struggle to play with it instead of just play X-Wing with the dozens of players at the FLGS? Maybe, maybe not.

Yet nobody has yet had the brains to merge mecha with a 40k-like ruleset, preferring to hold on to arcane and clumsy CBT / Silhoutte / RIFTS-based mechanics from various failed RPGs.

There's Mobile Frame Zero, IIRC, which seemed like an easy game, and CAV, I think. I also think that fans of mecha might have a liking for "nuts and bolts" games with lots of moving parts. Dunno.

One has to wonder whether the notion of mecha battles is so cool, that the rules designers are thinking that their robots are so good, that players will suffer to play pure crap.

That might certainly have some to do with it, yes. Many games are seen only as a way to sell the minis, and I think that DP9 have suffered this a lot (as in not really giving a feth about the rules as long as people buys minis).

And in the case of DP9 compared to Robotech and Battletech, the combination of an unknown IP property with terrible mechanics would naturally succeed, right?

Just that, and objetively terrible mechanics? No, of course not. Good rules and unknown IP? Probably not either, just with that. But then again, look at Warmachine. Unknown IP (to non-D&D fans), a ruleset (and a gaming philosophy) completely at odds with GW's... and there they are now, the second biggest fantasy wargame (maybe not the second anymore, by now, actually). What did they do right, then? I'd say that they had great rules support, that they listened to their fans. Also the minis are very distinctive, and the setting is absolutely great, but they also marketed themselves really well.

Of course, as DP9's awesome success to date shows, this thinking is completely flawed. And yet they persist in their fool's errand...

Although the ruleset probably has to do with it, it is nowhere near to the only cause. Changing rulesets at the drop of a hat, having non-existent rules support, really, really high prices, very bad distribution channels, no presence at all in game stores, no publicity whatsoever, frakking god expensive softbound books, quality problems with the minis casting, a history of not giving a feth about their players... that might also have to do something with it.

The Gears have never been the problem - people are always wanting to play them. It's consistently been the rules that have driven players away, running and screaming. The fact that HG (and JC) is a dying property shows how incredibly bad the rules are.

See above. The rules are a part of a whole, big mess.

IMO, it's still the rules. If the game had been playable, at least people would play, rather than run for the hills.

Then the other issues would rear their heads. But players don't get past the first game, so the poor support, etc. doesn't show up until later. Like with the GW complaints.

In the GW case, people play, and then, they complain and complain and complain about what they're playing. For years at a stretch. While still buying more and more stuff. That's a very different place from not even getting past a demo game.

I think GW has a lot of traction, what with being the game with most players in most places, so many people complain and complain, but still play it. The fact that is fething expensive to build an army would make people even more invested in it, probably.

And IMHO, HG rules have been getting worse with every new release: 2nd edition would be an involved game, but it works, and does some interesting things. Latest Blitz, OTOH...

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote:Regardless of which order you choose GW and WGF (I always mess up their name) are number one and two when it comes to injection molded plastic minature wargaming models on a sprue.

An unamed company in America makes high quality plastic airplane kits. DP9 belives that an America based producer of plastic model planes has the needed expertise and capability...

And that pretty much sums up why I'm not backing the project. If everything turns out ok in the end and I see the models in person I'll probably buy some.

Who is DP9 using? I don't follow scale model aircraft, so I'd like to know if you know who it is. .
____

I don't think they've said anything other then its a producer of plastic aircraft models based in the USA. A quick google search suggests that it could be Revell or Probuilt.

Revell does make plastic wargaming models but every review of them I've read has mentioned their bendyness and excessive flash.

 Albertorius wrote:
And then there's the fact that HG is no Robotech, or Gundam. The scale is completely off, the designs are not the ones that people know. It's as if someone develops an X-Wing clone, only with a new IP and completely unknown fighters. Will it be a good game? Possibly. Will it be somewhere near to as marketable and successful as X-Wing? I really don't think so. Will people struggle to play with it instead of just play X-Wing with the dozens of players at the FLGS? Maybe, maybe not.

Well that's good, because a bunch of us don't like Robotech or Gundam. If you're a Patlabor or VOTOMS fan the size is just right. Or to use your example, even if Star Wars is well known, there are a large amount of people who don't like Star Wars fighters. Maybe the market isn't large enough for lots of different games, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't try.

The rest of this isn't a response to you Albertorius.

And in the case of DP9 compared to Robotech and Battletech, the combination of an unknown IP property with terrible mechanics would naturally succeed, right?

Of course, as DP9's awesome success to date shows, this thinking is completely flawed. And yet they persist in their fool's errand...

The Gears have never been the problem - people are always wanting to play them. It's consistently been the rules that have driven players away, running and screaming. The fact that HG (and JC) is a dying property shows how incredibly bad the rules are.

You want to know a game that succeeded inspire of horrible rules... Warhammer 40,000. For most in this hobby they are the first set of rules they come across and set a benchmark. It not unlike D&D in RPGs, the introduction to the hobby is by way of a poor set of rules. So lets just drop the subjective assault that Heavy Gear has bad rules.

I posit that the gears are the problem. It's not the size, shape, price or anything like that. It's that the mecha market is too small to support more than one game, Battletech I'm looking at you. Even Battletech waxes and wanes and appeals to a non-anime crowd. The real problem is that Heavy Gear is and will always be a niche game while supports hope it will be the next big thing and detractors point out it will soon be dead. Warzone, Chronopia, Void, Confrontation, AT-43... they all came and went while Heavy Gear is still here. The 'Net is littered with failed and dead miniatures games and yet DP9 still has a market, mayb a small one, but a viable one so long as they don't get delusions of grandeur.

At the end of the day, DP9 hasn't killed anyone, they've done nothing illegal and probably know their window to be the next great tabletop game has past. Lots of neat minis are saddled with rules people don't like. DP9 has found a viable niche catering to people who can live with the rules and actually put down money on the models.

Iain.

40k succeeded because they had the best models at the time, bar none, and the 3E rules were completely adequate for playing games on a scale that nobody else could. Period. 40k's 3E ruleset was not horrible. We had a pre-teen in the shop who could play 40k just fine (delightful little kid, so great). There is no way you would have gotten him to play 1st Ed Heavy Gear - the math would have been completely beyond him. Claiming subjectivity about HG's rules is a load of crap. Objectively, HG's rules require a lot more work.

Just shoot at something to hit it.

In 40k, you need to know three things:
- shooter's last movement
- shooter Ballistic Skill
- weapon type (e.g. Heavy 3)
The BS and weapons are basically fixed and limited by army, so you can memorize it. Easy.

In the current version of Heavy Gear, you need to know the following pieces of information, at a minimum:
- shooter Gunnery Skill
- shooter stance
- target Pilot Skill,
- target stance,
- weapon range band.
- difference in die rolls
- secondary successes
I hope I didn't miss anything, but that is basically twice as many things to know and figure, and it's more steps. Just to see if we got a hit.

And that's without the earlier multiplication bits.

Heavy Gear's rules are objectively worse. They are objectively bad. It's not a mere preference, and you should stop claiming otherwise.

The Gears are fine. There is not a single gamer I've shown the minis to that doesn't think they're cool.

As for the market, CBT has its own issues.

But DP9 chooses not to make a clean 2nd Edition, when they have the chance to do so. This is a 10% solution, not a major revamp.

Compare that to what you need to know for Infinity:

- weapon type (number of shots, ammo type, etc.)
- attacker skill
- cover status
- range
- various special skills of the attacker or target

Not every game company decides that the removal of range modifiers and other mechanics is a good idea. Especially when the primary game mechanics are still "one model activating at a time" instead of "activate these five to thirty models to move/shoot/attack" where the game just starts becoming mass dice rolling.

The intended scale is key to that though. Infinity is meant to be played with less than a dozen minis per side. The goal for the initial version of the rules was 2-3x that per side but that has since been (wisely) amended downward to up to 20. We'll see what the community actually ends up collectively deciding is the real sweet spot in a year or two.

Infinity wants to be up to a dozen models per side, not 20.

What works for 1 model (D&D) doesn't work for 10 (Infinity) doesn't work for 20 (Heavy Gear) doesn't work for 50 (40k).
____

corrected from 6 to 10-ish for Infinity

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Infinity wants to be a half-dozen models per side, not 20.

What works for 1 model (D&D) doesn't work for 6 (Infinity) doesn't work for 20 (Heavy Gear) doesn't work for 50 (40k).

Granted, although Infinity is more in the 9-12 range, I think? If their sample lists are any indication, they seem to think that their "sweet spot" is about 10 minis per side.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chairman Aeon wrote:
Well that's good, because a bunch of us don't like Robotech or Gundam. If you're a Patlabor or VOTOMS fan the size is just right. Or to use your example, even if Star Wars is well known, there are a large amount of people who don't like Star Wars fighters. Maybe the market isn't large enough for lots of different games, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't try.

Yeah, of course, Heavy Gears are basically ATs. What I meant to say, though, is that HG, unlike Robotech or Gundam that already have a fanbase, and a big one at that (even after all Harmony Gold shenanigans), have a smaller pool of potential customers, one from it just being a mecha game, which is a niche already, and another from being an unknown IP for many people, unlike those others.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Infinity wants to be a half-dozen models per side, not 20.

What works for 1 model (D&D) doesn't work for 6 (Infinity) doesn't work for 20 (Heavy Gear) doesn't work for 50 (40k).

Is anyone stating otherwise? I'm certainly not but I'm not sure if your post is directed (incorrectly) at me or just happened to be posted right after mine.

Infinity is pretty solidly in the "10" minis to a side range.

Some factions can 'horde' it up to 20, but this isn't terribly common.

Hmm... You know about the whole "dp9 doesn't keep their word" story folks kept telling and I've been saying "They've changed with this KS!"...

Well, they haven't, it appears... :-(

Here we've Robert Dubois telling us they want to make a 46 mini starter core set (5 weeks ago):
http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=16567&p=289767

Here we've Robert Dubois telling us that plan is very likely to change (72 hours before the end of the KS):
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heavygearblitz/heavy-gear-blitz-war-for-terra-nova-starter-set/comments?cursor=8397318#comment-8397317

They give a nice explanation on why they want to change this, but in the end it's a broken promise on the primary goal of a big (46 model) starter core set for Heavy Gear. That pretty much shakes most confidence out of this KS. What's next? They couldn't do hard Polystyrene gears, so they went with PVC? The 'Living' rulebook hurts their rulebook sales to much, so they aren't doing it? Making another new edition a year and a half down the road because "the fans where asking for it"?

I'm seriously considering pulling my $2081CAD pledge entirely, imho everyone should reconsider this KS. Because if this is how dp9 operates this early in the KS, what's going to happen in the nex 12 months?

Huh. Well, that was fast.

Cergorach wrote:
Hmm... You know about the whole "dp9 doesn't keep their word" story folks kept telling and I've been saying "They've changed with this KS!"...

Well, they haven't, it appears... :-(

Here we've Robert Dubois telling us they want to make a 46 mini starter core set (5 weeks ago):
http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=16567&p=289767

Here we've Robert Dubois telling us that plan is very likely to change (72 hours before the end of the KS):
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heavygearblitz/heavy-gear-blitz-war-for-terra-nova-starter-set/comments?cursor=8397318#comment-8397317

They give a nice explanation on why they want to change this, but in the end it's a broken promise on the primary goal of a big (46 model) starter core set for Heavy Gear. That pretty much shakes most confidence out of this KS. What's next? They couldn't do hard Polystyrene gears, so they went with PVC? The 'Living' rulebook hurts their rulebook sales to much, so they aren't doing it? Making another new edition a year and a half down the road because "the fans where asking for it"?

I'm seriously considering pulling my $2081CAD pledge entirely, imho everyone should reconsider this KS. Because if this is how dp9 operates this early in the KS, what's going to happen in the nex 12 months?

inb4smildonsezitolduso.

While I can see some folks seeing this as responding to the community/retailer feedback, it is also fair to say that it wasn't well thought out in the first place and that it is more accurately classified as reactionary. I've been telling them that the whole 3 player starter that turned into 4 factions/two players or four players is a bad idea for MONTHS.

There is nothing stopping them from making further changes as "needed" as long as they deliver something that can be construed as meeting their KS obligations, even if they're mould line ridden messes of PVC minis.

You pledged over $2k on this? Wow. I'm still struggling whether to pledge the $130 CAD, or just wait for retail.

I'm not surprised at all about the retailer issues. I do believe the $500 for 5x $115 pledges to be fair, because that KS-only "46"-mini (actually only 42 bases) set will not retail for $115 CAD.

My concerns tie to DP9 being able to stay on task to meet the Nov 2015 deadline they estimated. Hard styrene plastic is new technology and new process for them. $100k CAD isn't that much money to design, proof, and produce 18+ new model kits, especially if they're staying faithful to the renders.

I would not be surprised if actual fulfillment didn't occur until 2016. The only question is how late it will be. If they run a year late (which is very possible, given the novelty and challenges), what then?

Yeah, Cerg, you may want to drop down to $1. If things progress as you want during the intervening months/years then you can always increase the pledge back to $2k. You can't, however, go the other way around from $2k to zero if you're unhappy except at DP9's sole discretion. If you do switch to $1, you're basically trusting DP9 not to change their statement about keeping the pledge manager open until manufacturing begins and since trust is at the heart of the issue... well... that is your call.

If you're not familiar with it, I'd suggest you take a look at the Robotech KS to see how a company with a history of trust issues and public image problem handled a similarly ambitious KS which has only now delivered over a year late (for US backers) only around 1/3 of the sculpts they unlocked. Granted the HG project is probably at half the sculpts total that robotech finished at but the comparison has merit.

 warboss wrote:
While I can see some folks seeing this as responding to the community/retailer feedback, it is also fair to say that it wasn't well thought out in the first place and that it is more accurately classified as reactionary. I've been telling them that the whole 3 player starter that turned into 4 factions/two players or four players is a bad idea for MONTHS.

There is nothing stopping them from making further changes as "needed" as long as they deliver something that can be construed as meeting their KS obligations, even if they're mould line ridden messes of PVC minis.

I'm not surprised either. I think DP9 is now starting to consider the cold, hard reality of having to deliver all of this stuff on a $100k budget (after fees), and that reality is starting to scare them a bit. For their budget, designing 18 different scale models is a lot of work to do. For comparison, Robotech finished with a roughly comparable number of hard styrene plastic models to design, but pulled more than 10x the budget. Granted that Robotech ran off larger production runs, but Heavy Gear is looking like it could be a nightmare.

Let's look at the "buttwheel" that DP9 is all excited over. This is a small model, no less complex than the other minis. It takes just as much effort to sculpt, cut and bring into production. Each backer gets 1 model, so that would be 800-1000 copies? If it were one of the double models, 1,600-2,000 models to produce in the initial run. Standard production wants to be 5,000 copies for best price, but DP9 is short 4,000 units. Cutting a steel mold to run 800 copies is tough. Only the 4x models are likely to cover their cost of $ 6k per model.

Normally, the last 72 hours would be a time to firm everything up, and let the machine run its course. If DP9 needs to make revisions, now is the time, before pledges lock. Moving from styrene to PVC would be a major change in materials, and they had best get that type of change announced immediately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
I'd suggest you take a look at the Robotech KS to see how a company with a history of trust issues and public image problem handled a similarly ambitious KS which has only now delivered over a year late (for US backers) only around 1/3 of the sculpts they unlocked. Granted the HG project is probably at half the sculpts total that robotech finished at but the comparison has merit.

HG's total complexity is the same as Robotech!
http://damommasboyz.com/sodapop/rtsquadrons/battlecry.html

Go count the different models Robotech offers. It's basically the same 20 sculpts, same hard plastic material, same issues.

What Robotech did different was to run off a lot more copies of things. That's why backers are getting 9 Valkyries instead of 5.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Let's look at the "buttwheel" that DP9 is all excited over. This is a small model, no less complex than the other minis. It takes just as much effort to sculpt, cut and bring into production. Each backer gets 1 model, so that would be 800-1000 copies? If it were one of the double models, 1,600-2,000 models to produce in the initial run. Standard production wants to be 5,000 copies for best price, but DP9 is short 4,000 units. Cutting a steel mold to run 800 copies is tough. Only the 4x models are likely to cover their cost of $ 6k per model.

Just to clarify, the "buttwheel" mini is a gear that is basically a fan favorite mascot type of gear. It's not particularly good or visually appealing but has taken on a bit of a cult status along with previously the Asp for the south.

Producing that mini as an insider favorite versus a bulk seller only makes things worse! That mini now moves from a potential cash cow / cost cutter item to a loss-leader dog that will never recoup its mold cost.

Cergorach wrote:
I'm seriously considering pulling my $2081CAD pledge entirely, imho everyone should reconsider this KS. Because if this is how dp9 operates this early in the KS, what's going to happen in the nex 12 months?

Who the hell backs $2k on a Kickstarter in the Tabletop section ?

 Enigma Crisis wrote:

Cergorach wrote:
I'm seriously considering pulling my $2081CAD pledge entirely, imho everyone should reconsider this KS. Because if this is how dp9 operates this early in the KS, what's going to happen in the nex 12 months?

Who the hell backs $2k on a Kickstarter in the Tabletop section ?

Someone who planned to pull the plug all along.

 warboss wrote:

inb4smildonsezitolduso.

While I can see some folks seeing this as responding to the community/retailer feedback, it is also fair to say that it wasn't well thought out in the first place and that it is more accurately classified as reactionary. I've been telling them that the whole 3 player starter that turned into 4 factions/two players or four players is a bad idea for MONTHS.

There is nothing stopping them from making further changes as "needed" as long as they deliver something that can be construed as meeting their KS obligations, even if they're mould line ridden messes of PVC minis.

Smildon was probably right.

The two faction (Alliance vs. Invaders) that can turn into four factions was brilliant imho! The pricing drek issue is bogus imho, the Dark Vengeance starter costs $110 and has 49 miniatures and a full rulebook. At least a year from now a $115 46 miniatures box with introductory rules would fit right in after another GW price raise. Not to mention that with this KS all the setup costs would have been paid for, so every retail sale of that starter set would be a LOT of profit.

My major problem with this is indeed that they have shown they will change the KS at a moments notice and/or haven't done enough (market) research, not to mention the goal of a big mini filled starter for all the fans.

 Enigma Crisis wrote:

Cergorach wrote:
I'm seriously considering pulling my $2081CAD pledge entirely, imho everyone should reconsider this KS. Because if this is how dp9 operates this early in the KS, what's going to happen in the nex 12 months?

Who the hell backs $2k on a Kickstarter in the Tabletop section ?

I think there are several 4-figure backers of Kingdom Death : Monster. Heck, I backed at "Herald of Death" level for $300+. If you went all-resin, all options, I think you'd be over $1,000 for sure. Marrow's Journey : Wrath of Demons also had lots of beautiful resins to buy, and I think some people backed 4 figures there, too.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Enigma Crisis wrote:

Cergorach wrote:
I'm seriously considering pulling my $2081CAD pledge entirely, imho everyone should reconsider this KS. Because if this is how dp9 operates this early in the KS, what's going to happen in the nex 12 months?

Who the hell backs $2k on a Kickstarter in the Tabletop section ?

I think there are several 4-figure backers of Kingdom Death : Monster. Heck, I backed at "Herald of Death" level for $300+. If you went all-resin, all options, I think you'd be over $1,000 for sure. Marrow's Journey : Wrath of Demons also had lots of beautiful resins to buy, and I think some people backed 4 figures there, too.

Yeowzer!. I never really thought of that as an actual Miniatures game but as display models. reading the 4 digit sections there's a lot of limited and unique things that no one else would be able to get. For the Heavy Gear one there really isn't a unique or limited edition model being added.

 Splod wrote:

 Enigma Crisis wrote:

Cergorach wrote:
I'm seriously considering pulling my $2081CAD pledge entirely, imho everyone should reconsider this KS. Because if this is how dp9 operates this early in the KS, what's going to happen in the nex 12 months?

Who the hell backs $2k on a Kickstarter in the Tabletop section ?

Someone who planned to pull the plug all along.

I've pledged more for the CAV KS ($2093US), if you don't believe me, ask the Reaper crew or wait for the eventual pictures of me swimming in CAVs ;-) The Robotech KS happened in a very low cash flow period, but I later upped my pledge through the pledge manager to somewhere around $1000 (just started getting out of the low cash flow period). Not believing me is your prerogative.

I wanted to make the Desert Sharks regiment and wanted to support this KS in a big way, because dp9 was doing exactly what I always wanted: a relatively cheap and versatile hard model plastic core starter set for retail. Now that they don't, I've lost most interest for backing.

Edit:
Hi, I'm Cergorach. I'm a miniatures collector ;-)
I was late with the Kingdom of Death KS, was able to get one during their Black Friday sale at $850, all plastic, every expansion. If that gave me access to the pledge manager, it would have been higher.

 Enigma Crisis wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Enigma Crisis wrote:
Who the hell backs $2k on a Kickstarter in the Tabletop section ?

I think there are several 4-figure backers of Kingdom Death : Monster. Heck, I backed at "Herald of Death" level for $300+. If you went all-resin, all options, I think you'd be over $1,000 for sure. Marrow's Journey : Wrath of Demons also had lots of beautiful resins to buy, and I think some people backed 4 figures there, too.

Yeowzer!. I never really thought of that as an actual Miniatures game but as display models. reading the 4 digit sections there's a lot of limited and unique things that no one else would be able to get. For the Heavy Gear one there really isn't a unique or limited edition model being added.

KD:M is basically the nightmare horror miniatures game of Monster Hunter. It's definitely conceived as a game, hence the 100s of cards that are being created.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

HG's total complexity is the same as Robotech!
http://damommasboyz.com/sodapop/rtsquadrons/battlecry.html

Go count the different models Robotech offers. It's basically the same 20 sculpts, same hard plastic material, same issues.

What Robotech did different was to run off a lot more copies of things. That's why backers are getting 9 Valkyries instead of 5.

3x Valkyrie sprues (1 for each mode)
2x Destroid sprues
Mac II
Ghost
Lancer
Super Valkryie
Armored Valkyrie
VEF/VT
Vf-4
Jotun
Rick Hunter
Roy Fokker

Battlepod
Officer Pod
Recon Pod
Recovery Pod
Artillery Pods
Glaug Sled
Male Power Armor
Female Power Armor
Gnerl Fighter
Miriya
Khyron
Zentraedi Light Infantry
Zentraedi Heavy Infantry

2 objectives packs with 6 different objective models
SDF-1

Depending on how you add that stuff together (and I'm not counting the various "experimental" unlocks as they're part of the regular sprues now and counting the 3 objectives in each pack as one sprue/sculpt), that comes to roughly 30 different products. Heavy Gear has 16 currently according to this graphic:

These are resin:
2 objectives packs with 6 different objective models
SDF-1

These might be metal:
Rick Hunter
Roy Fokker
Miriya
Khyron

The LAMs, oh excuse me, veritechs have three modes, would consider it three different minis, there are four different Destroids, so easily 30+ minis @$1,442,312US. Over $1.6 million Canadian.

Plus sprues for templates, tokens, etc.

Part of the problem is that there's a lot of parties involved in the plastic minis, Palladium, Ninja, Harmoney Gold, Chinese manufacturer, all having a say. With HG it'll be dp9 and US manufacturer.

 warboss wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

HG's total complexity is the same as Robotech!
http://damommasboyz.com/sodapop/rtsquadrons/battlecry.html

Go count the different models Robotech offers. It's basically the same 20 sculpts, same hard plastic material, same issues.

What Robotech did different was to run off a lot more copies of things. That's why backers are getting 9 Valkyries instead of 5.

3x Valkyrie sprues (1 for each mode)
2x Destroid sprues
Mac II
Ghost
Lancer
Super Valkryie - add bitz
Armored Valkyrie
VEF/VT
Vf-4
Jotun
Rick Hunter - different stats, same Valk
Roy Fokker - different stats, same Valk

Battlepod
Officer Pod
Recon Pod - add bitz
Recovery Pod
Artillery Pods - add bitz
Glaug Sled
Male Power Armor
Female Power Armor
Gnerl Fighter
Miriya - different stats, same Valk
Khyron - different stats, same Valk
Zentraedi Light Infantry
Zentraedi Heavy Infantry

2 objectives packs with 6 different objective models
SDF-1

Depending on how you add that stuff together (and I'm not counting the various "experimental" unlocks as they're part of the regular sprues now and counting the 3 objectives in each pack as one sprue/sculpt), that comes to roughly 30 different products.

Heavy Gear has 16 currently according to this graphic:

Spoiler:

Robotech has 21 models, plus bitz and and terrain.
Heavy Gear has 16 models, plus bitz and terrain.

The workload is essentially similar.