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BrandonKF wrote:
Another key thing, which I have spoken about with others, is the attitude of the community. I don't know how else to put it, but wargamers need to ask themselves "why so serious?" sometimes. You put in a lot of time into this hobby, yes, but at the end of the day these games should be about fun. And yes, that means being goofy once in awhile. So hopefully my comments are taken in the spirit I give them, that of someone who wants to have fun.

God bless.

Brandon, I suspect for alot of gamers they have that attitude because the customers have to keep repeatedly asking themselves "why does DP9 screw us over?" along with "why do they keep shooting themselves in the foot?" so often for multiple decades. I hope that this KS marks a turn in events but there is a whole lotta really bad momentum (both internally at dp9 and in the community) that they need to overcome to do it. The community response is 100% because of company actions over the years.

 plastictrees wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
I think this one's reached the 'good deal, definitely worth it' point now, right?

I mean, if you're at all interested in the minis/theme/scale/etc, of course!

I had pledged despite my existing concerns and previous investment. I dropped out a few days ago though.
If I decide to jump back in to something in this scale it will be Firestorm Planetfall (which seems to make better use of it's scale in terms of unit diversity) or with my existing NuCoal minis.
I've had enough of "great deals!" for things I'll probably never use. If they aren't gorgeous minis (and these really aren't, they just don't get across the size of the gears effectively IMO) then I'm not going down that road anymore.

Some of the 3D models are looking really good, like the Iguana, and some clearly need some tweaks, like the Cobra. They're all still in the early stages and some will need more levels of detail added for sure. In this kind of situation you want to get the initial look right and then start layering the detail. Modifying the basic proportions is three times the work for the sculptor if all the detail is already placed since it means more adjustments.

It's also really hard to balance the 'large walking vehicle' aesthetic with an appropriate level of badass without going overboard. (See the Rally Ferret for an example of something pushed too far, but great in context).

Cheers!
Dave

 warboss wrote:

Brandon, I suspect for alot of gamers they have that attitude because the customers have to keep repeatedly asking themselves "why does DP9 screw us over?" along with "why do they keep shooting themselves in the foot?" so often for multiple decades. I hope that this KS marks a turn in events but there is a whole lotta really bad momentum (both internally at dp9 and in the community) that they need to overcome to do it. The community response is 100% because of company actions over the years.

I certainly don't want to commit to anymore 'love it or leave it' conversations, warboss. Believe me, I understand the community's response. From both sides of the aisle. But I thank you for sticking with it as long as you have.

BrandonKF wrote:
What assurances you have that Mr. Dubois and Dave are going to change can be found in the fact that I and a lot of other folks are putting money in the hat, so to speak, on good faith that the Pod will deliver.

That's... no assurance at all that they will or won't do anything. It's just assurance that you think they will.


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 DP9Dave wrote:

Some of the 3D models are looking really good, like the Iguana, and some clearly need some tweaks, like the Cobra

You really think so? Like, really, really? Because so far I would rate no single render I've seen on the KS much above the category of "doodle", honestly. If you think that some of those are already done, it is an ill omen for me. But I'll take you at your word when you say that these are only for proportions' sake, and the detailing will come later. You have the change to throw it out of the park. Take it, you need to.

 Albertorius wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
I suspect that you are correct - DP9 doesn't want HG to become the best selling and most profitable tabletop wargame in the world.

Even though I think you have some very valid points, I don't really think that is one.

That may have been slightly facetious. Did you miss the smiley?

 Albertorius wrote:
I agree almost completely with: 2nd edition 40k was a skirmish game played with far too many minis for its ruleset, whereas 3rd edition 40k was a game designed wholecloth for the amount of minis they were actually playing with, and it is actually my favorite "big game" edition of 40k.

We are in violent agreement here - I prefer 40k3 best, too.

 Albertorius wrote:
So, were we to follow the "might makes right" theory of gaming design (or at least the one you seem to have been toting around over here, namely that as 40k and FoW are the most successful games they are therefore the best ones)

Close. My position is that HG2 should leverage the basic structure of 40k and FoW to maximize potential adoption and growth. This strategy worked very well for Flames. I don't believe that Flames is necessarily the "best" ruleset, but it is the most playable for the vast majority of gamers who started with 40k and wanted something a little different.

 Albertorius wrote:
, we would have to reach the conclusion that 40k 2nd edition was indeed a better game than 3rd and onwards, wouldn't we?

I don't believe that 40k2 sold as much stuff as 40k3 did, and a lot of that was carryover of RT-era mechanics and rules making for a difficult learning process.


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BrandonKF wrote:
Here is an updated view of the Spitting Cobra 3D model:

Compared with...


Be still, my beating heart!

There's hardly any change in the two, though I really wonder how many parts DP9 is looking at splitting the Spitting Cobra into. To match the render in styrene, we are looking at:
- head
- 2 antennae
- torso (requires slide mold)
- V-engine
- 2 V-engine caps
- rocket pod
- vertical rocket pod
- left arm
- right arm with gun
- 2 shoulder pads (requires slide mold)
- legs
- 2 kneepads
- 2 feet.

By my count, that Spitting Cobra will require 18 parts to make a model that stands less than 1.5 inches tall. That may be excessive, but then Robotech went with a lot of parts, too!



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrandonKF wrote:
I would rather Heavy Gear stand on its own. The only contemporary mecha games currently are Battletech and Alpha Strike.

How about Robotech Tactics, which is currently finishing Wave 1 delivery to the US? Doesn't that count as a mecha game? They're even styrene plastic, and pulled $ 1.4M in their KS.

BrandonKF wrote:
Flames of War I will grant is even closer in style to Heavy Gear than those I listed above.

Do I want more detailed plastic miniatures? Yes. But comparisons right now are going to be judged on finished products versus entirely new molds in entirely new medium for the company.

Is it fair to compare HG's renders with the Robotech ones, and/or the production Robotech plastics now in backer hands?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Even though I think you have some very valid points, I don't really think that is one.

That may have been slightly facetious. Did you miss the smiley?

I... heh. Most certainly have ^^

 Albertorius wrote:
I agree almost completely with: 2nd edition 40k was a skirmish game played with far too many minis for its ruleset, whereas 3rd edition 40k was a game designed wholecloth for the amount of minis they were actually playing with, and it is actually my favorite "big game" edition of 40k.

We are in violent agreement here - I prefer 40k3 best, too.

Yeah. I still like the old rules (or at least, part of them.... close combat is and always be nuts ) for games like Necromunda and the like, but for the kind of games 40k markets itself, 3rd edition is waaay better (or at least, for the kind of games it marketed itself. The Apocalypse games are just nuts, IMHO).

 Albertorius wrote:
So, were we to follow the "might makes right" theory of gaming design (or at least the one you seem to have been toting around over here, namely that as 40k and FoW are the most successful games they are therefore the best ones)

Close. My position is that HG2 should leverage the basic structure of 40k and FoW to maximize potential adoption and growth. This strategy worked very well for Flames. I don't believe that Flames is necessarily the "best" ruleset, but it is the most playable for the vast majority of gamers who started with 40k and wanted something a little different.

I don't know. On the one hand, yes, getting closer to the basic structure of 40k/FoW would help in people who like those games to at least try HG out. On the other hand, people could end up wondering why play a game like HG that has a lot smaller playerbase than 40k/FoW if the end result is playing a game that plays pretty much like one of those.

 Albertorius wrote:
, we would have to reach the conclusion that 40k 2nd edition was indeed a better game than 3rd and onwards, wouldn't we?

I don't believe that 40k2 sold as much stuff as 40k3 did, and a lot of that was carryover of RT-era mechanics and rules making for a difficult learning process.

Maybe not in gross quantities, but most certainly in terms of market percentage. Back then in 2nd edition 40k/4-5th edition WFB, Games Workshop games were pretty much the only game in town, and their market share was more or less "all of it", except for those weirdo historical players .

Is it fair to compare HG's renders with the Robotech ones, and/or the production Robotech plastics now in backer hands?

I'd say pretty fair, personally... and we all know by now how those ended up (Spartan nipple launcher, anyone?)

 frozenwastes wrote:
This KS is going alright and I hope it results in nice plastic models coming out on time, but given DP9's history of cancelled editions, delays and the fact that it's their first attempt at plastic like this (also the amount of plastic miniatures is very high relative to the funds raised, so that's worrying), I think the smart thing to do is to sit this one out.

 Firebreak wrote:
I love Heavy Gear, not Dream Pod 9, though I'd like to one day.

 warboss wrote:
I suspect for a lot of gamers they have that attitude because the customers have to keep repeatedly asking themselves "why does DP9 screw us over?" along with "why do they keep shooting themselves in the foot?" so often for multiple decades.

I think that's about the long and the short of it all, and everyone will find out a year or more from now whether or not the Pod can make good on their word.

BrandonKF wrote:
Another key thing, which I have spoken about with others, is the attitude of the community.

Quite simply, you have achieved the exact kind of community that you wanted by being one of the architects who shaped it into the now - whatever happens with the KS is not going to change that apart from a possible increase or decrease in overall numbers.

Cergorach wrote:
Because if your not a customer and not a potential customer due to your own words, your a disruptive influence for the rest of the customers, your pretty much kicked out of the store/forum.

 Firebreak wrote:
But this swaggering "Anybody else??" attitude doesn't do anything to help. "Look they made money that means you're wrong and everything is good now." Okay, whatever.

I think that mrondeau pretty much covered what if anything is left that can be said:

mrondeau wrote:
If I wanted you to fail, I would simply shut up.

So, yeah.


_
_

Albertorius wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:
What assurances you have that Mr. Dubois and Dave are going to change can be found in the fact that I and a lot of other folks are putting money in the hat, so to speak, on good faith that the Pod will deliver.

That's... no assurance at all that they will or won't do anything. It's just assurance that you think they will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DP9Dave wrote:

Some of the 3D models are looking really good, like the Iguana, and some clearly need some tweaks, like the Cobra

You really think so? Like, really, really? Because so far I would rate no single render I've seen on the KS much above the category of "doodle", honestly. If you think that some of those are already done, it is an ill omen for me. But I'll take you at your word when you say that these are only for proportions' sake, and the detailing will come later. You have the change to throw it out of the park. Take it, you need to.

@Albertorius, I guess it isn't an assurance, but whatever works for you.

@JohnHwangDD, I don't know how plastic works, but I would prefer not requiring so many separate pieces for this size of a miniature. I mean, respectfully, that is a crud load of pieces.

At the very least I would hope the V-engine could be adequately formed and molded without requiring the cylinders being glued on separately.

I know that Robotech did very well, but I have no skin in that game, or the thread that resulted from it here on Dakka. I told warboss I appreciated him sticking as long as he has with Heavy Gear and I think he (and anyone else in the Robotech Backers) should be commended.

I also know there was a lot of fallout here on Dakka in that thread from the updates. Again, no skin in it.

But if what you are trying to get at is you would like Heavy Gear to match that, I would like that.

Smilodon_UP wrote:

BrandonKF wrote:
Another key thing, which I have spoken about with others, is the attitude of the community.

Quite simply, you have achieved the exact kind of community that you wanted by being one of the architects who shaped it into the now - whatever happens with the KS is not going to change that apart from a possible increase or decrease in overall numbers.

I am PMing you my response.

Edit: I can say that this KS being my first, I already am looking forward to more. I learned quite a bit from veteran Backers and from ya'll. Peace.

BrandonKF wrote:
But if what you are trying to get at is you would like Heavy Gear to match that, I would like that.

Please... spare me of that. Robotech's KS has been a clusterfeth from start to end. Or will be, I guess, as there's no end in sight.

I don't think DP9 could survive a disaster such as the Robotech KS...

 Albertorius wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Close. My position is that HG2 should leverage the basic structure of 40k and FoW to maximize potential adoption and growth. This strategy worked very well for Flames. I don't believe that Flames is necessarily the "best" ruleset, but it is the most playable for the vast majority of gamers who started with 40k and wanted something a little different.

I don't know. On the one hand, yes, getting closer to the basic structure of 40k/FoW would help in people who like those games to at least try HG out. On the other hand, people could end up wondering why play a game like HG that has a lot smaller playerbase than 40k/FoW if the end result is playing a game that plays pretty much like one of those.

Is it fair to compare HG's renders with the Robotech ones, and/or the production Robotech plastics now in backer hands?

I'd say pretty fair, personally... and we all know by now how those ended up (Spartan nipple launcher, anyone?)

It wasn't that long ago that BattleFront was a complete unknown, and nobody was playing it at all. I recall a lot grognards deriding Flames for not being "crunchy" enough to be a "proper" WW2 game, so it couldn't possibly succeed. In the years since FoW 1E released, we now have FoW 3E, and it's the largest tabletop miniatures version of WW2 game in the world by a significant margin. We have 3rd parties (i.e. PSC) doing full lines of Flames-compatible scale miniatures in hard plastic, from metal molds. We have Battlefront themselves moving to plastic, because the profits and volumes allow them to invest in long-term metal molds to support high volume sales with superior margins. BF started small, leveraged 40k gameflow into a huge, profitable franchise.

Robotech, I raised that because I think HG will be in a similar situation going from render to production. Preserving the 3-D detail with steel molds is going to be a challenge, with very similar results. Lots of parts, or much simplification. Either way, managing to the budget will make things tougher, roughly $ 6k per mold to cut. In America.

I start to feel like this project will be very challenged to deliver within budget.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrandonKF wrote:
@JohnHwangDD, I don't know how plastic works, but I would prefer not requiring so many separate pieces for this size of a miniature. I mean, respectfully, that is a crud load of pieces.

At the very least I would hope the V-engine could be adequately formed and molded without requiring the cylinders being glued on separately.

Hard plastic is that - HARD. It has no "give", so you can't have any undercuts - if you do, the plastic gets stuck in the mold. So molds have to be straight up and down, like a metal stamping. That's probably the easiest way to visualize how plastic molds work. So when I look at the renders, I look at where the part can be stamped on 2 sides, and where it can't.

These models were not designed for injection molding, which is why the parts count is really high.

Let's look at the feet, as an example. The feet are mainly detailed as a side-to-side stamping, except for the undercut between the toe blocks, undercut in the heel tracks, and the undercut under the top of shoe. This can be solved a few different ways, by making a multi-part foot, or using slide molds - regardless, it's more complex and more expensive.

OTOH, the gun arm is easy, even though it's got lots of detail. This can be molded pretty accurately side-to-side, with basically no loss of detail. You can go from the shoulder to the tip of the barrel, and even have a sort of ball joint at shoulder to facilitate posing options.

But that shoulder pad? It's not going to translate well, due to the spikes on the front. That has to mold separately, front-to-back, with a slide mold somewhere. Ugh.

The V-engines can probably mold front-to-back, but the ends have vertical detail that create undercuts if molded that way - better to make the caps something that molds on-end, for a 3-part V-engine.

And this is on a really tiny little model. It's not going to be 3-5 pieces like the current metal models.

John, it's also important to note that there is only one company that has good consistant results using slide core molds for minatures and they definatly aren't a company based in America whose most familar with relativly large flat surfaces.

Actually the spikes aren't the problem part, it the indent in the round thing on the front is.

A two part mold doesn't have to have a flat horizontal moldline, but it would still mean a separate shoulder part and that is already more then was indicated.

You can have the whole mini in one part and have some sort of 100 part sliding mold engineered, but the cost of that is way out of this KS ballpark ;-)

There's a video on Lego's (Megafactories?) that has a very complex mold that does multiple materials.

ps. GW has also been using sliding molds, I know that they did with the Baneblade (the barrels where hollow and not two parts).

JohnHwangDD wrote:

And this is on a really tiny little model. It's not going to be 3-5 pieces like the current metal models.

But think of the bitz box filling and conversions! We'll finally get to see all of Terra Nova's "lost" Gears thanks to never before seen kitbashing opportunities.

 Catyrpelius wrote:
John, it's also important to note that there is only one company that has good consistant results using slide core molds for minatures and they definatly aren't a company based in America whose most familar with relativly large flat surfaces.

Is this an oblique reference to WarGames Factory in China, and their out-fething-standing work on the DreamForge Games Leviathan Crusader?

I have the DFG Titan from their KS, and it built up beautifully.

Fan-fething-tastic kit!


And no, Heavy Gear being made in the USA precludes them working with WGF like Wyrd (Malifaux) or Kingdom Death.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Catyrpelius wrote:
John, it's also important to note that there is only one company that has good consistant results using slide core molds for minatures and they definatly aren't a company based in America whose most familar with relativly large flat surfaces.

Is this an oblique reference to WarGames Factory in China, and their out-fething-standing work on the DreamForge Games Leviathan Crusader?

I have the DFG Titan from their KS, and it built up beautifully.

Fan-fething-tastic kit!


And no, Heavy Gear being made in the USA precludes them working with WGF like Wyrd (Malifaux) or Kingdom Death.

It was an oblique reference to Games Workshop who really is the best when it comes to plastic minatures production with WGF being a very close second. I'm pretty sure WGF can't reliable to slide core yet especially on smaller stuff, thats why the models they produce for Wyrd tend to be in so many tiny peices. A three peice head on a gremlin is common in that line.

Cergorach wrote:
Actually the spikes aren't the problem part, it the indent in the round thing on the front is.

A two part mold doesn't have to have a flat horizontal moldline, but it would still mean a separate shoulder part and that is already more then was indicated.

You can have the whole mini in one part and have some sort of 100 part sliding mold engineered, but the cost of that is way out of this KS ballpark ;-)

There's a video on Lego's (Megafactories?) that has a very complex mold that does multiple materials.

ps. GW has also been using sliding molds, I know that they did with the Baneblade (the barrels where hollow and not two parts).

Yes, I agree, you can do the spikes any way you like but the round bit requires front-to-back molds; I combined the two details in my head. Sorry.

I think the shoulder pad actually needs a 2-part slide for the interior. That's the most obvious way of molding the part as rendered. Expensive, though...

I'm pretty sure that render has undercuts that are so deep that you can't mold that thing in one part styrene, even with lots of slides. But I'd like to see someone try!

I used to love the multi-gate mono-sprue stuff that Bandai did. Very clever way of cutting down the final sprue count for shipping, while still molding everything in color.

GW did use slide molds on the Baneblade, I have the kit, too. Not a bad kit, but the mecha design is a bit "off", which hurt conversion ease.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Catyrpelius wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Catyrpelius wrote:
John, it's also important to note that there is only one company that has good consistant results using slide core molds for minatures and they definatly aren't a company based in America whose most familar with relativly large flat surfaces.

Is this an oblique reference to WarGames Factory in China, and their out-fething-standing work on the DreamForge Games Leviathan Crusader?

It was an oblique reference to Games Workshop who really is the best when it comes to plastic minatures production with WGF being a very close second. I'm pretty sure WGF can't reliable to slide core yet especially on smaller stuff, thats why the models they produce for Wyrd tend to be in so many tiny peices. A three peice head on a gremlin is common in that line.

GW rarely uses slide molds. GW has gotten very, very good at designing for conventional flat molds. They have been doing injection plastic for a long time, and their digital sculptors are getting very good at knowing how to manage draft angles and separations to get very good, complex models without needing slides.

Wyrd is not as deeply informed to design for separations, so they make dynamic models, and leave it to the hobbyist to assemble. Big pointy ears / antennae are tough on any model, whether it's a VF-1S, Spitting Cobra, or Goblin.

Actually, GW isn't the best, and Dreamforge (WGF China in this case) is actually technically making more advanced kits (the Leviathans are beyond anything GW is selling at the moment).

I have a metric ton of plastic GW minis, I love em, but they can do better. But with GW just good enough is good enough.

Bandai is one of the best, if not the best in model making. They produce complex multicolored plastics in different materials on the same sprue. Minimal moldlines, no slippage, and can be assembled without glue. Those 1/144 modern kits are a joy to assemble!

Cergorach wrote:
Bandai is one of the best, if not the best in model making. They produce complex multicolored plastics in different materials on the same sprue. Minimal moldlines, no slippage, and can be assembled without glue. Those 1/144 modern kits are a joy to assemble!

Years ago I thought about a gaming project with 1/144 Gundams fighting in space in an asteroid field with lots of floating debris and whatnot for terrain. I think my posts about how larger heavy gear miniatures would be cool was expressing that idea that I never brought to fruition. Twice a month I have gaming club meetings where I can have huge tables available, so perhaps instead of 1/144 on the ground with Heavy Gear, it's time for 1/144 in space with Gundams from Bandai. I'll probably get a more satisfying modeling experience and won't have to wait for a year (plus delays) to get started.

Thanks for reminding me! Time to get a couple Real Grade 1/144 kits and getting the project moving forward enough to run a duel at the New Year's club day.

I hope this KS project turns out for everyone involved. Maybe when it makes it to retail I'll add some tiny power armour guys to my gundam games if the gears turn out nicely enough.

Cergorach wrote:
Actually, GW isn't the best, and Dreamforge (WGF China in this case) is actually technically making more advanced kits (the Leviathans are beyond anything GW is selling at the moment).

I have a metric ton of plastic GW minis, I love em, but they can do better. But with GW just good enough is good enough.

Bandai is one of the best, if not the best in model making. They produce complex multicolored plastics in different materials on the same sprue. Minimal moldlines, no slippage, and can be assembled without glue. Those 1/144 modern kits are a joy to assemble!

Scale matters though, most of the Bandai kits I've seen are much larger and use a much less densely packed sprue then what were used to in the minature wargaming world.

Regardless of which order you choose GW and WGF (I always mess up their name) are number one and two when it comes to injection molded plastic minature wargaming models on a sprue.

Every manufactuer has their strengths and weaknesses. GW and WGF make excelent plastic minature wargaming kits. Bandai and the other company I'm drawing a blank on now make excelent large colored plastic models. An unamed company in America makes high quality plastic airplane kits. I wouldn't ask Bandai to make me a 28mm minture sprue and I wouldn't ask WGF to make a multicolored large model, having an expertise in one thing doesn't nessacarily translate to an expertise in something else. While the basic mechanics and machinery might be similiar the details and engineering are completly different. Sure you could have Bandai, WGF or GW, all leaders in their feilds, create the needed expertise but it wouldn't be cheap or fast. But it seems to me that DP9 belives that an America based producer of plastic model planes has the needed expertise and capability...

And that pretty much sums up why I'm not backing the project. If everything turns out ok in the end and I see the models in person I'll probably buy some.

 Catyrpelius wrote:
Scale matters though, most of the Bandai kits I've seen are much larger and use a much less densely packed sprue then what were used to in the minature wargaming world.

Gundams are huge mecha while gears are basically armoured transforming humanoid motorcycles. As for sprue density here's a pic:


There's quite a big difference between separating out parts for model builders and for miniature gamers, isn't there? The Gundam sprue doesn't really look like the type of thing you want to see if you want to build miniatures for wargaming.

But it seems to me that DP9 belives that an America based producer of plastic model planes has the needed expertise and capability...

And that pretty much sums up why I'm not backing the project. If everything turns out ok in the end and I see the models in person I'll probably buy some.

So you're saying that a model vehicle company just likely doesn't have the expertise to make 28mm miniatures to the same standards as their larger kits? It's just outside of their area of expertise?

I think that's a fair reason to take a wait and see approach on this KS.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Catyrpelius wrote:
Scale matters though, most of the Bandai kits I've seen are much larger and use a much less densely packed sprue then what were used to in the minature wargaming world.

Gundams are huge mecha while gears are basically armoured transforming humanoid motorcycles. As for sprue density here's a pic:

Spoiler:

But it seems to me that DP9 belives that an America based producer of plastic model planes has the needed expertise and capability...

And that pretty much sums up why I'm not backing the project. If everything turns out ok in the end and I see the models in person I'll probably buy some.

So you're saying that a model vehicle company just likely doesn't have the expertise to make 28mm miniatures to the same standards as their larger kits? It's just outside of their area of expertise?

I think that's a fair reason to take a wait and see approach on this KS.

Don't forget that with this kickstarter isn't even dealing with 28mm miniatures, but something smaller. Look at it in terms of clocks... You've got a craftsman who makes grandfather clocks and a craftsman who makes watches. They both make generally the same thing but they couldn't preform the others job as well as they could.

Cergorach wrote:GW isn't the best, Dreamforge (WGF China in this case) is

with GW just good enough is good enough.

Bandai is one of the best, if not the best in model making.

I generally agree: Bandai is 10/10, WGF China is 9.5/10, GW is 9/10.
____

frozenwastes wrote:Years ago I thought about a gaming project with 1/144 Gundams fighting in space in an asteroid field with lots of floating debris and whatnot for terrain.

The game you are looking for could have been DP9's Jovian Chronicles, except DP9 let that game languish. It had a small splash, then nothing. <sad trombone>

Bandai, OTOH, as stepped things up, with a game around their 1/144 Gundam - Gundam Build Fighters.
____

Catyrpelius wrote:Regardless of which order you choose GW and WGF (I always mess up their name) are number one and two when it comes to injection molded plastic minature wargaming models on a sprue.

An unamed company in America makes high quality plastic airplane kits. DP9 belives that an America based producer of plastic model planes has the needed expertise and capability...

And that pretty much sums up why I'm not backing the project. If everything turns out ok in the end and I see the models in person I'll probably buy some.

Who is DP9 using? I don't follow scale model aircraft, so I'd like to know if you know who it is. .
____

Catyrpelius wrote:Gundams are huge mecha while gears are basically armoured transforming humanoid motorcycles.

Don't forget that with this kickstarter isn't even dealing with 28mm miniatures, but something smaller. Look at it in terms of clocks... You've got a craftsman who makes grandfather clocks and a craftsman who makes watches. They both make generally the same thing but they couldn't preform the others job as well as they could.

On the tabletop:
- Gundam are 5" to 7" tall.
- Gears are 1" to 2" tall.
Titans vs Terminators, in 40k terms.

Based on my experience with their product, I'm pretty sure the House of Wilsdorf could make one heck of a grandfather clock, if they so desired. They'd probably produce the first grandfather clock that you could use while swimming across the English Channel, or at the bottom of the ocean.

Bandai makes a couple of kits that actually have 1/144 figures, a tank, a hovertruck and a hover bike on them. Sure the 1/144 models are large, but not larger then the recent GW models. Those Gundams might be huge compared to the Gears, those tanks and hover trucks are not. Are they two piece models? No, but still far fewer components and easier to build then a Gundam.

Bandai's main property is Gundam, that's about big stompy robots, so they make models for that in all kinds of different scales. 1/144, 1/100, 1/60, 1/48, 1/35, all the way up to 1/1 ;-) But I've also seen 1/220, 1/300 and I've bought a ton relatively cheap on ebay in 1/400, at that scale they are as tall as a Cobra or Grizzly. They are colored, have decals applied, are sharp in detail and cheap!

Bandai is a Watch maker that makes components the size for watches, but usually makes belltower clocks with the components, just very complex belltower clocks. ;-)

A lot of the model plane manufacturers also make/made 1/72 scale figures, 1/48, 1/35. Heck 40k is getting close to 1/48. Some of those manufacturers made far more detailed kits the GW at the time. There are folks that have been using 1/48 or 1/35 scale APCs for Rhinos...

How is a 1/48 Modern US infantry man different from a Hunter Gear? How is a 1/144 Harrier different from a HG VTOL in the same scale? The only difference is that the model kit companies have been doing that for decades...

I feel that a Gear sized kit in hard model plastic can even be made to be assembled without glue, it would just need more components then previously envisioned...

Cergorach wrote:
Bandai makes a couple of kits that actually have 1/144 figures, a tank, a hovertruck and a hover bike on them.

Off topic here I know - but could you PM me with the details of those particular kits?

Thanks!

Well we've broken $111K with three days to go.

That give us a Ferret in every set and a step on the way to the BF2-25 Frame for the CEF.

There are some very complicated pieces. Some will simply have to be broken down into more parts. One example is the cobra. Those little spikes on the shoulders will not play well in a mold so they are probably going to be all or mostly parts that will have to be glued into place. Following the basic premise of "As few parts as possible but no cams" as a good rules of thumb.

Battlefront's stuff is very impressive. Games Workshop have spent the most for talent in the area of mold making as far as I can tell though Wyrd seems to be the ones to beat for sheer detail though their quality seems to be a bit hit and miss. Hawk wargames has an advantage in that it was designed from the get go in 3D so all the tolerances are already there, and their stuff is alwasy nicely broken down into very flat parts. I haven't had a chance to examine the Mantic sprues but it looks very close to GW back in 5th edition Warhammer. Bandai will always be the gold standard. They must have a phenominal team of designers to design their models with as much articulation as they do. I look forward to the day when we can get our little drone Gundams out of the box and fight live with remote cams to a real world combat sim. I'm sure they have that in the planning stages somewhere, probably funded by the JDF.

Who doesn't like a little buttwheel? It's the grot of the Heavy Gear universe.


Cheers!
Dave

I like buttwheel as much as the next guy but I think I'd prefer some mount love personally. The caprice set is looking by far the skimpiest of the bunch. Even CEF get a ton more stuff!

Folks asking for Stealth Frames... I want Ammons and Mammoths.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It wasn't that long ago that BattleFront was a complete unknown, and nobody was playing it at all. I recall a lot grognards deriding Flames for not being "crunchy" enough to be a "proper" WW2 game, so it couldn't possibly succeed. In the years since FoW 1E released, we now have FoW 3E, and it's the largest tabletop miniatures version of WW2 game in the world by a significant margin. We have 3rd parties (i.e. PSC) doing full lines of Flames-compatible scale miniatures in hard plastic, from metal molds. We have Battlefront themselves moving to plastic, because the profits and volumes allow them to invest in long-term metal molds to support high volume sales with superior margins. BF started small, leveraged 40k gameflow into a huge, profitable franchise.

That is true, but no complete, really.

WWII is very ingrained in the imaginations of... well, pretty much the whole wide world, so merging the 40k gameflow with WWII has a lot of appeal, even if historics grognards get their pants in a knot. Simply put, the potential market for a "simplified" wargame with lots of reconigzable parts in the rules for current GW customers to latch on.

So in the case of FoW, I'd say that using a recognizable and internalized by a lot of wargamers base ruleset and coupling it with WWII was both a pretty good idea and a very shrew move on their part.

But I'm not sure that doing the same in this case would be a strength for DP9 and HG (and hopefully, JC, I'd love me some JC action). The IPs, although well beloved among a certain subset of players (and even then, more roleplayers than wargamers, honestly), are nowehere near popular, and the main eye candy minis of the game, the gears, look pretty much like technified space marines of some sort (and are the same size). So, if you couple a "space marine" aesthetics with a mostly unknown IP with a ruleset reminiscent of Warhammer 40.000 (THE space marine game, by definition)... well, I'm just not sure that it would be as good an idea as in the case of WWII.

OTOH, Kings of War pretty has pretty much mined the "WFB-like battles, but faster and easier" for all it is worth, so what do I know.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DP9Dave wrote:
Hawk wargames has an advantage in that it was designed from the get go in 3D so all the tolerances are already there, and their stuff is alwasy nicely broken down into very flat parts.

1) Basically every company design its stuff in 3d from the get go nowadays, when plastic is involved (except mainly historical 28mm, I think), so that's no advantage of Hawk Wargames.
2) Not really flat at all... have you seen their new Resistance stuff, for example? I'd call that anything but flat, and given the actual finished minis, I don't think the parts would be much flat either.

Kidou Senshi GUNDAM came out in 1979, and Robotech came to the US in the early 80s, so mecha robots are just as ingrained in people's consciousness over the past 30-odd years. There is just as much potential for a "simplified" wargame with lots of recognizable parts for GW customers.

Yet nobody has yet had the brains to merge mecha with a 40k-like ruleset, preferring to hold on to arcane and clumsy CBT / Silhoutte / RIFTS-based mechanics from various failed RPGs.

One has to wonder whether the notion of mecha battles is so cool, that the rules designers are thinking that their robots are so good, that players will suffer to play pure crap.

And in the case of DP9 compared to Robotech and Battletech, the combination of an unknown IP property with terrible mechanics would naturally succeed, right?

Of course, as DP9's awesome success to date shows, this thinking is completely flawed. And yet they persist in their fool's errand...


The Gears have never been the problem - people are always wanting to play them. It's consistently been the rules that have driven players away, running and screaming. The fact that HG (and JC) is a dying property shows how incredibly bad the rules are.