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One option is to split the Terminator branch in 3. You'd have:

- Tactical Terminator Squad (30ppm, Power Weapons, 2x Special Weapons)
- Assault Terminator Squad (40ppm, melee weapons only)
- Terminator Squad (35~ppm, Power Fists, 1x Special Weapon)

So basically you simply end up getting a discount on the Power Fists by buying them in bulk. It doesn't really "fix" the stock Terminators, it's just addressing the fact that 4x Power Fists are expensive, don't add any survivability, and require a lot of support to get them to the right target. So while 1x PF is maybe worth 25pts on your character, 4x PF are not worth 100pts on your troops.

Additionally, the stock Terminators are carrying the most Storm Bolters of these three groups, so they would benefit the most from any potential improvements.

Would the terminator sergeant still come with a power weapon? If so, will it come at a discount price from the powerfist terminators? 40ppm is too much for Lightning claw assault terminators. If twin lightning claws gave rending instead of or in addition to shred than maybe. 40ppm sounds about right to me for hammernators.

Overall I really do not favor the powerfist squad because it is basically what we have now and really doesn't address the issues with them well.

I think the powerfist actual hurts them in the long run.

Not striking at initiative is a killer unless you are a hammernator imo. But, it is something I would be willing to try with the right buffs to storm bolters and what TDA can do with them.

The Tactical terminators and terminator squads having different number of specials doesn't make much sense either.

I'd actually extend it to "not striking first in combat can be a real killer". After all, Assault Cents get to strike at Initiative... but against say, a WK they still get stomped into the ground, due to the WK's I5.

Hammernators get away with striking at I1- IE, after almost everything- on account of getting a 3++ save, allowing them to absorb almost ridiculous amounts of damage in combat. The only time striking first in combat doesn't help is if you charge something that you can't really hurt in the first place.

Also, I echo the idea that Tac Termie and "regular Termie" squads having different special weapon density isn't really making sense.

It merly making the tac into a pseudo Devastator squad, why not just go all the way.

If in base to base contact with other tac/lc TDA pseudo 1+ toughness against massed small arms fire?

Well, I think that +1T for TDA models being in base contact with each other seems to have two problems:

1) Isn't that a Deathwing Knight shtick?
2) Doing so puts the Termies in perfect formation to receive many pieplates to the face.

A lot of armies these days seem to be able to bring some kind of AP2 large blast weapons to the field. Not only that, but it increasingly seems as if such weapons are getting longer and longer ranges.

Used to be that a low-AP, high Strength large blast was either on a very fragile artillery platform, or was on a very short ranged assault gun platform.

Now you've got Jump/Jetpack MCs toting the things...

Pretty good points across the board gents. We are getting into the finer details now. So, add/amend :

- Drop the points of the LC Termies (25-35pts, requires testing).
- Give the Terminator Squad access to a 2nd Heavy Weapons slot.
- Figure out the details for the Power Sword Sgt (Terminator Squad). Maybe a points discount, +1A, or a 5pt Chainfist?
- Figure out exactly how the SB fits into the picture.

PF Termies are caught in a bind because Deep Striking favors cheaper Alpha Strike units, and deploying TH/SS Terminators in a Land Raider is more effective in CC. I think there's still some thinking to be done over this, not easy to resolve. Improving the SB a little would help too. But in the meantime, we can at least adjust the pricing to reflect the poorer scaling of the PF squad.

Whiskey144 wrote:
Well, I think that +1T for TDA models being in base contact with each other seems to have two problems:

1) Isn't that a Deathwing Knight shtick?
2) Doing so puts the Termies in perfect formation to receive many pieplates to the face.

A lot of armies these days seem to be able to bring some kind of AP2 large blast weapons to the field. Not only that, but it increasingly seems as if such weapons are getting longer and longer ranges.

Used to be that a low-AP, high Strength large blast was either on a very fragile artillery platform, or was on a very short ranged assault gun platform.

Now you've got Jump/Jetpack MCs toting the things...

1. it kinda is, the main problem is to up survivability of vanilla tda's that dosent carry over and escalate into a chain reaction of unknown buffs.
2. pie plates will be thrown out regardless but if you can knock out or lock up them pie plate casters the tda's survival rate will passively increase and if your deepstriking your lumped up anyway

TBH though, the things which are actually dangerous and carry AP2 pieplate weapons are also either incredibly durable or incredibly mobile.

Riptides? Never gonna catch it. WKs? Good luck killing one. Of course, given that WKs are also Jump MCs and Riptides are 2+, with options to get a 3++ and 5+ FNP the opposite is also true of both.

/grumbling at least Dreadknights have the decency to want to punch things really badly.

For the +1T idea, I'd just do it without needing base contact. It doesn't really fit thematically unless it's to do with a shield formation. Standing close to another Terminator shouldn't be what makes a Terminator tougher.

Besides, +1T Terminators already exist in the form of the Mark of Nurgle.

Before you guys jump on "do 2W" or "do T5", please look at the numbers. In the other thread with a 4+ FNP and price drop, Tac Termies are already strong enough, and Assault Terminators are likely broken. 2W or T5 is too much.

Terminators are already pretty tough with a 2+. Most of the issues come down to a diffused role (Alpha Striking Tac Terminators), overcosting (LC Terminators, poor PF scaling), or problems in deployment (DS saturation, issues w/Land Raiders).

If you are against stupid numbers of AP1/2 weaponry and feel helpless, it's either a problem with undercosted AP1/2 units, or you need to start putting some MSU in your list. Making someone waste their AP2 shots on a cheap unit is a counter. Losing a 11pt Scout is going to hurt a lot less than a 40pt Terminator.

Well, yeah. I'd agree that 2W or T5 isn't going to help much. Also, thanks to Frozen Ocean for helpfully pointing out that Chaos Termies can already get T5 thanks to MoN, I'd forgotten about that.

So I'd agree that Terminator problems as they stand now really has to due with overcosting and role issues. Deployment problems can be bundled back into both overcosting and role issues, as the former bites really hard with Land Raiders being so expensive (and requiring fairly small squads to actually fit in a LR), while DS can overcost them to a degree if it's something that they have trouble leveraging with a useful amount of reliability.

People seem to be against the idea of changing the invulnerable save to a FNP of the same value. Maybe TDA should continue to give the Invulnerable save but if it is on a model that is getting an invulnerable save from another source that is equal to or exceeding the 5++ then the 5+ invulnerable instead becomes a 5+FNP.

I think a points cost reduction is pretty much required. I am leaning towards a 28 ppm for power weapon + storm bolter with an invul save. Though with the right buffs in other areas I would go up to 30. Powerfist variant would be 5 points more. Lightning clasws would cost same as power weapon + storm bolter. TH+SS would cost 40ppm.

I think a change to storm bolters is needed too. My latest idea inspired in part by another poster is to make storm bolters assault 2 (maybe 3), gauss or tesla. I know it steps on necrons a bit, but gauss would let terminators select tougher targets with their weapons and tesla would generate more hits. Tesla would definitely be an assault 2 weapon.

I think with this rule TDA being able to fire snapshots during shooting phase to get full BS during overwatch would work out well. It would give tactical flexibility to Terminators.

Another option would be to make tesla and gauss ammo upgrades which could be bought full cost or for entire unit at a discount but only be able to buy one type. If bought at full price let them switch between the two. Make the full cost option available to characters. If tesla and gauss are upgrades id say make storm bolters assault 3.

The gauss option especially would help out GK as well.

I disagree with the TH/SS ones being 45 points. Look at other, more viable melee units as an example of this. 40 points is just fine.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I disagree with the TH/SS ones being 45 points. Look at other, more viable melee units as an example of this. 40 points is just fine.

I agree 40 ppm is just right for TH+SS Terminators. Which I mention in my above post.

 NorseSig wrote:
People seem to be against the idea of changing the invulnerable save to a FNP of the same value. Maybe TDA should continue to give the Invulnerable save but if it is on a model that is getting an invulnerable save from another source that is equal to or exceeding the 5++ then the 5+ invulnerable instead becomes a 5+FNP.

I think a points cost reduction is pretty much required. I am leaning towards a 28 ppm for power weapon + storm bolter with an invul save. Though with the right buffs in other areas I would go up to 30. Powerfist variant would be 5 points more. Lightning clasws would cost same as power weapon + storm bolter. TH+SS would cost 40ppm.

I think a change to storm bolters is needed too. My latest idea inspired in part by another poster is to make storm bolters assault 2 (maybe 3), gauss or tesla. I know it steps on necrons a bit, but gauss would let terminators select tougher targets with their weapons and tesla would generate more hits. Tesla would definitely be an assault 2 weapon.

I think with this rule TDA being able to fire snapshots during shooting phase to get full BS during overwatch would work out well. It would give tactical flexibility to Terminators.

Another option would be to make tesla and gauss ammo upgrades which could be bought full cost or for entire unit at a discount but only be able to buy one type. If bought at full price let them switch between the two. Make the full cost option available to characters. If tesla and gauss are upgrades id say make storm bolters assault 3.

The gauss option especially would help out GK as well.

I can not, in good conscious, see a Terminator going below 30ppm. They are a lot more Durable than Incubi +1T +1Sv +invulnerable save, have a ranged attack, and even with a power weapon, are comparable in melee, plus more Special rules.

Maybe Incubi are incorrectly costed as well.

I can not, in good conscious, see a Terminator going below 30ppm. They are a lot more Durable than Incubi +1T +1Sv +invulnerable save, have a ranged attack, and even with a power weapon, are comparable in melee, plus more Special rules.

More special rules doesn't necessarily mean better.

Relentless is good, but bulky drags the unit down. 2+/5++ is ok, but considering the meta and what people take not as good as one would expect.

Land raiders are AV14, but overly expensive, low firepower, and can't take a full ten man unit of terminators.

Deepstrike gets you where you need to be, but you can't do anything for a turn and will get pretty much decimated before doing anything.

Storm bolters at assault 3 are a little better, but won't be hurting anything you really want terminators to hurt (giving access to special issue ammo upgrades would fix this, which certain ammos could lower RoF). At assault 2 storm bolters are pretty much junk, and worth 1 pt max.

Power weapons give decent melee as far as str and ap go.

Powerfists do great melee dmg, but the initiative one tends to get terminators killed before they even get to strike (and jack up model price as well.

A 6 inch move really hurts Terminators. As does the current rules for charge and assault.

Inability to make sweeping advances also hurts.

You only get two heavy weapons, and a poor selection of heavy weapons overall kind of mitigate the relentless rules. The heavy weapon selection hurts more than the limit of two heavy weapons does.

Not being able to take all heavy weapons in the first 5 models really kills terminators.

ATSKNF is ok but largely over rated.

Some rules that would help terminators and TDA in general, but could potentially make them broken or uber expensive depending on which ones and how many you take for them are: Fleet, Move Through Cover, Split Fire, and Strafing Run.

Terminators getting something like a 3+ cover save the turn they deepstrike could help terminators or any deepstrike unit without being too broken. Or maybe snapshots only vs a unit the turn it deepstrikes.

I don't have experience against incubi, but it sounds like (from your previous posts) that they kind of suck against everything except overcosted terminators. Maybe Incubi need some tweaking as well. I firmly believe that no unit should be good against only one other unit.

The charge rules could be fixed by saying base charge for a model with 6inch move is 3+d6. Slow and Purposeful would subratact an inch and Relentless would add an inch. Models who move 12+ inches charge 5+d6, and again SnP subtracts an inch while Relentless adds an inch.

Well, I'd actually agree with 30-ish ppm for a Terminator with a Stormbolter (or Combi-Bolter) and a power weapon, given that a Chaos Termie is actually 31 ppm for a combi-bolter+power weapon.

Chaos Termies have their own problems, of course- mostly that Combi-Bolters are probably worse than Stormbolters, and Chaos Termies have an even worse selection of heavy weapons. But 30/31 ppm for a Terminator with a Stormbolter+power weapon seems like a reasonable deal. Considering that we're pretty much set on Assault 3 Stormbolters, and likely a greater heavy weapon density- even just going "2 heavies, accessible @5 mans" would be a big deal, as you could then go MSU+max heavies if you wanted.

Throw in some better heavy weapon options, and I'd argue Split Fire has some good potential, though Fleet isn't a good choice and Strafing Run is actually mechanically impossible to use (it only applies to Fliers targeting other things when in Zooming mode, IIRC). Move Through Cover would actually feel kind of fluffy, IMO- the sheer bulk combined with the dynamic power of an Astartes allows a TDA-equipped dude to simply run around without worrying about things like "this rock is in my way".

With regards to "Terminators can't be "less expensive" (IE better) than Incubi!", Incubi are a highly specialized unit. They're mainly intended to kill heavy infantry, since they have AP2 combat weapons that strike at initiative; this makes them particularly effective at killing TEQ, but they're still no slouch at killing MEQ. The problems facing Incubi mostly fall under the following headings:

1) Assaulting through cover; Incubi have no assault grenades (lolwut GeeDubs)
2) Delivery into combat (cardboard bawkses are super-great)

For the former, the solution is simple: give Incubi assault grenades. For the latter... I guess just deal with the fact that Raiders are flimsy as piss, or maybe go Forgeworld and use the Tantalus since it's AV12/12/10?

Good point on the Chaos Termies. So, a recap:

- Assault Terminator Squad now costs 150pts, +30pts to add a model. TH/SS Terminator upgrade is +15pts.
- Tac Terminators cost 150pts, equipped w/Power Weapons, +30pts to add a model.
- Terminator Squad costs 170pts, Sgt may upgrade Power Sword to Chainfist for +10pts, +30pts to add a model.
- Special weapons capacity doubled for Terminator Squad and Tac Terminators.
- Terminator Squad and Tac Terminators have USR "Split Fire".
- Storm Bolter is now Assault 3.

Do these changes sound reasonable?

Whiskey144 wrote:
Well, I'd actually agree with 30-ish ppm for a Terminator with a Stormbolter (or Combi-Bolter) and a power weapon, given that a Chaos Termie is actually 31 ppm for a combi-bolter+power weapon.

Chaos Termies have their own problems, of course- mostly that Combi-Bolters are probably worse than Stormbolters, and Chaos Termies have an even worse selection of heavy weapons. But 30/31 ppm for a Terminator with a Stormbolter+power weapon seems like a reasonable deal. Considering that we're pretty much set on Assault 3 Stormbolters, and likely a greater heavy weapon density- even just going "2 heavies, accessible @5 mans" would be a big deal, as you could then go MSU+max heavies if you wanted.

Throw in some better heavy weapon options, and I'd argue Split Fire has some good potential, though Fleet isn't a good choice and Strafing Run is actually mechanically impossible to use (it only applies to Fliers targeting other things when in Zooming mode, IIRC). Move Through Cover would actually feel kind of fluffy, IMO- the sheer bulk combined with the dynamic power of an Astartes allows a TDA-equipped dude to simply run around without worrying about things like "this rock is in my way".

With regards to "Terminators can't be "less expensive" (IE better) than Incubi!", Incubi are a highly specialized unit. They're mainly intended to kill heavy infantry, since they have AP2 combat weapons that strike at initiative; this makes them particularly effective at killing TEQ, but they're still no slouch at killing MEQ. The problems facing Incubi mostly fall under the following headings:

1) Assaulting through cover; Incubi have no assault grenades (lolwut GeeDubs)
2) Delivery into combat (cardboard bawkses are super-great)

For the former, the solution is simple: give Incubi assault grenades. For the latter... I guess just deal with the fact that Raiders are flimsy as piss, or maybe go Forgeworld and use the Tantalus since it's AV12/12/10?

I think Combi-Bolters with an extra shot would be fine. If I remember correctly combi-bolters have twin-linked on the 2 shots in the 12 inch range. Which actually makes them better than storm bolters inside 12 inches.

Strafing Run reads as being geared towards vehicles and is a stretch to be sure.

I am unsure about the rules for repeating rules in forums, but if there is an issue I will delete it.


Strafing Run
This vehicle is designed as a ground attack craft, the spread and convergence distance of
its weapons keyed to maximise carnage on the foes below.

When shooting Assault, Heavy, Rapid Fire or Salvo weapons at Artillery, Beasts, Bikes,
Cavalry, Infantry, Monstrous Creatures and vehicles without the Flyer or Skimmer type,
this vehicle has +1 Ballistic Skill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
Good point on the Chaos Termies. So, a recap:

- Assault Terminator Squad now costs 150pts, +30pts to add a model. TH/SS Terminator upgrade is +15pts.
- Tac Terminators cost 150pts, equipped w/Power Weapons, +30pts to add a model.
- Terminator Squad costs 170pts, Sgt may upgrade Power Sword to Chainfist for +10pts, +30pts to add a model.
- Special weapons capacity doubled for Terminator Squad and Tac Terminators.
- Terminator Squad and Tac Terminators have USR "Split Fire".
- Storm Bolter is now Assault 3.

Do these changes sound reasonable?

I would say upgrade to TH/SS be +10pts

Tac sergeant may upgrade power sword to a PF for +5pts, or a Chainfist for +10pts

other than that it sounds good.

TDA getting Move Through Cover might be a thing to consider as well. As would Fleet.

If there were more options for ranged upgrades I could live with 2 total said upgrades as long as they come in the forst 5 models

I do worry about stepping on other specific terminators like the DA ones.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Good point on the Chaos Termies. So, a recap:

- Assault Terminator Squad now costs 150pts, +30pts to add a model. TH/SS Terminator upgrade is +15pts.
- Tac Terminators cost 150pts, equipped w/Power Weapons, +30pts to add a model.
- Terminator Squad costs 170pts, Sgt may upgrade Power Sword to Chainfist for +10pts, +30pts to add a model.
- Special weapons capacity doubled for Terminator Squad and Tac Terminators.
- Terminator Squad and Tac Terminators have USR "Split Fire".
- Storm Bolter is now Assault 3.

Do these changes sound reasonable?

I don't really see the point of having separate entries for "Tactical Terminators" who get a power weapon+Stormbolter, and "Terminators" who get the traditional PF+SB. It seems like it would be easier to just roll both options together and have a power weapon start, and then add a power fist for +5 ppm on top of the 30 that each one costs.

Incidentally, how about this for a unified Terminator entry:

Terminator Squad- 150 points
4 Termies+1 Sarge, all with SB+power weapon
-Add up to 5 additional mans for +30 ppm
-swap power weapon for PF for +5 points, Chainfist for +10pts
-two heavies per five guys
-swap power weapon+SB for twin Lightning Claws
-swap power+SB for TH/SS for +10 ppm

Models in TDA have the Move Through Cover rule (to represent them going "ain't nobody got time for walls!"), and the Terminator Sarge, as long as he is alive, confers the Split Fire USR on the unit.

I do see a little bit of potential issue with TH/SS and Chainfist being the same cost, but the Chainfist means you keep your gun, and get Armorbane in combat, while the TH/SS mainly gives a 3++- Concussive isn't going to come into effect overly often against things that Hammernators can actually get into combat with.

 NorseSig wrote:
I think Combi-Bolters with an extra shot would be fine. If I remember correctly combi-bolters have twin-linked on the 2 shots in the 12 inch range. Which actually makes them better than storm bolters inside 12 inches.

For Combi-Bolters I was thinking that something like "Rapid Fire 3/2, Twin Linked" would be good; this makes Combi-Bolters slightly better at short range but slightly worse at long range. The only real issue is trying to frame the rules of the weapon so as to allow for that. OTOH, making it 30" Salvo 3/3 Twin-Linked might work; this gives it a slightly longer half-range (15" vs 12" for Bolters), plus an extra shot at that range, making it a useful cheap (2-3 points?) gun option for Chaos Marine characters, as well as a better gun for Chaos Termies. About the only issue I see is logically explaining why strapping two Bolters together gives a longer-ranged, more accurate weapon than a Stormbolter (which combines two mechanisms in a fire-synced, singular receiver)... mostly the longer-ranged part, really.

 NorseSig wrote:
I would say upgrade to TH/SS be +10pts

Tac sergeant may upgrade power sword to a PF for +5pts, or a Chainfist for +10pts

other than that it sounds good.

TDA getting Move Through Cover might be a thing to consider as well. As would Fleet.

If there were more options for ranged upgrades I could live with 2 total said upgrades as long as they come in the forst 5 models

I do worry about stepping on other specific terminators like the DA ones.

I'm not sure of why TDA equipped models would have Fleet though. Move Through Cover I can see for sure- it's sort of how they work in DoW2 where Terminators are of such 'size' that they actually smash through and destroy cover on the map, completely ignoring it. Obviously we can't really implement such a mechanic in 40K- not only is it potentially very broken, but it would be difficult to manage. That said, the 'spirit' of it, if you will, is that Terminators wouldn't really be slowed down by cover, so MTC makes sense IMO.

But I'm not seeing the logic for Fleet.

Incidentally, I think that some of the army-specific Terminators are able to diversify themselves in their rules and certain options that they get- DA Termies get Plasma Cannons for example, while Chaos Termies have Reaper ACs (which isn't much, but still...) and combi-meltas/-plasmas, as well as a 3-man minimum squad size (those things are awesome). Space Wolves are... extra-wolfy, I guess? while Blood Angels... I don't actually know what BA get.

But I'm not seeing the logic for Fleet.

I guess I kind of think of TDA armor as having mechanical mechanisms (pistons and such) to augment strength and movement. Kind of like the loader in Aliens but smaller.

Or like the exo-skeleton in this vid. Being a more advanced suit it would allow you to move faster to a certain degree due to mechanical advantage.

Some explanations for certain choices:

-- TH/SS Terminators are regarded as "alright" at 45pts. I would only make changes to clearly OP/UP units, which most people see as overdue. Otherwise, you risk losing credibility.
-- Discrete choices are nice -- we have a pure melee unit, a PF-equipped unit, and a PW-equipped unit. You can see the difference instantly, which is important for opponents who aren't familiar with the unit.
-- There is a chance of people finding ways to exploit freedom of choice (like 1x LC Sarge to challenge, 2x TH/SS to tank fire, and 2x Tac Termies with Heavy Weapons).

This has more to do with design than anything else.

You might have a point about DS. But now we're talking about a deeper game mechanic, and DS right now is based on suicidal shooty Alpha-Strike drops.

The exception being Death Stars with psychic defense, or some equivalent.

Models with terminator armor reduce the strength of oncoming attacks by 1 and increase the AP of attack by one?

ThatSwellFella wrote:
Models with terminator armor reduce the strength of oncoming attacks by 1 and increase the AP of attack by one?

That option was offered up but ultimately decided against I believe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:
You might have a point about DS. But now we're talking about a deeper game mechanic, and DS right now is based on suicidal shooty Alpha-Strike drops.

The exception being Death Stars with psychic defense, or some equivalent.

That is true, but is worthy to discuss it a bit in the context that terminators have it, and potentially benefit from it and a change to it. One of those things where we need to keep everything in perspective and not forget things in order to get things right. Personally I like the snapshots variation as it gives a chance for the unit to survive til it's next turn, but still allows an opponent to adjust to it or possibly remove it. Just not as easily.