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Some suggestions. Reduce str of shooting against TDA by 1 and increase ap of shooting by 1. Make storm bolters str5 ap5 salvo 2/3. Up to 2 special/heavy weapons per 5 units. Terminators are 28ppm and start with power weapon and storm bolter (power and chain fists as an upgrade). TDA allows shooting and assault from deepstrike. I am not saying do all of these things but doing 2 or 3 of them might help.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Just terminators of course silly.

Why would we buff the units that are already worth having?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think if you want to go the tactical dreadnought armor approach then make them av8,8,8 give them 1hp,keep the Ds rule,make them strength 5, and a 5+ invul save.
Also things like dreadknights, riptides, etc. which are incorrectly labeled MCs should be made walkers.

AV8 is functionally equivalent to T4. You're effectively advocating reducing their save from a 2+ to a 5++.[/quote

And what about Av 9 or 10? And let them hit at initiative since they'd be walkers.

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Out of curiosity, do you guys suggest the same buffs to other 2+ save units like Broadsides or will this be a strictly Terminator thing?

Broadsides are already incredible. Terminators are currently on the other end of the spectrum. I myself don't advocate the 2+ save buff, but instead a firepower increase to make them worth having.

Well that's debatable; the HYMP is incredible, everything else about the Broadside is just okay or good.

What about mutilators and oblitorators? Will they get this buff too?

what if everything within 12" of where they deepstrike had to take a blind test or something?

I assume there's some kind of flash when they arrive from teleport.

Would mean they're a bit more durable against low initiative things like Guard, Tau and Necrons the turn they arrive.

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Out of curiosity, do you guys suggest the same buffs to other 2+ save units like Broadsides or will this be a strictly Terminator thing?

Broadsides are already incredible. Terminators are currently on the other end of the spectrum. I myself don't advocate the 2+ save buff, but instead a firepower increase to make them worth having.

Well that's debatable; the HYMP is incredible, everything else about the Broadside is just okay or good.

What about mutilators and oblitorators? Will they get this buff too?

Obliterators already have heavy weapons. I'm proposing just giving tactical terminators all assault cannons. This will make the assault cannon worth a damn on an Imperial platform. I haven't seen a mutilator in a long time, so I forget what they do or need.

Broadsides have two wounds and can get ablative drone bullet catchers, so that forces your Imperial opponent to at least have lascannons or MM to kill them efficiently. With terminators, it's just "LULZ, plasmas say you all die now!". If the terminators all had assault cannons, they might actually be able to hurt the squad at range that was about to plasma them to death.

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Out of curiosity, do you guys suggest the same buffs to other 2+ save units like Broadsides or will this be a strictly Terminator thing?

Broadsides are already incredible. Terminators are currently on the other end of the spectrum. I myself don't advocate the 2+ save buff, but instead a firepower increase to make them worth having.

Well that's debatable; the HYMP is incredible, everything else about the Broadside is just okay or good.

What about mutilators and oblitorators? Will they get this buff too?

Obliterators already have heavy weapons. I'm proposing just giving tactical terminators all assault cannons. This will make the assault cannon worth a damn on an Imperial platform. I haven't seen a mutilator in a long time, so I forget what they do or need.

Broadsides have two wounds and can get ablative drone bullet catchers, so that forces your Imperial opponent to at least have lascannons or MM to kill them efficiently. With terminators, it's just "LULZ, plasmas say you all die now!". If the terminators all had assault cannons, they might actually be able to hurt the squad at range that was about to plasma them to death.

Mutilators need some sort of delivery system buff, same as Terminators if you want them to ever reach melee. I almost pity the poor things, they're not only ugly, they're also incredibly bad rules-wise.

Just how many points would they cost for all-ACs? That sounds stupidly good.

Bharring wrote:
Just how many points would they cost for all-ACs? That sounds stupidly good.

I have no idea. It's not any better than Eldar war walkers; actually, its worse because 36" range is so much better than 24". 24" puts you within range of all kinds of unpleasant things in this game. I'm in the minority, but I really don't think the assault cannon is that great of a weapon; largely because it comes on terrible platforms and has a gimpy range. Rather than stupid good, it would make it so the unit can't be ignored like it can now. Oh and take off the power fists that no one ever uses anyway.

Swap out their storm bolters for heavy stubbers. Increased range and improved performance in all situations. Call it a marine super-bolter or something, since everyone seems to take fluff issues with giving them stubbers.

So let me get this straight. Pseudorending on a glass cannon platform at 18" s4 ap5 is broken. But twice the shots at 24" s6 ap4 with real rending on a t4 2+ 5++ is no big deal? Wtf?

And as for warwallkers. Again, glass cannons (av10 open topped). 36" range, ap6 vs ap4 rending. ACs pen av12 just as often as SLs glance. So for about half the points you get t4 instead of AV10 open topped, 12" less range, and half the shots, but you also get a 2+, ap4, and *rending*. And great melee (yes, dedicated Termie killers will beat them, but basic tacs or orks on the charge will destroy WWs)On a platform that can be joined by ICs.

So WW are more mobile. They can scout and battlefocus, and have 12" more range. Termies can deep strike or ride in Land Raiders. Advantage, WW.

When shooting anything with a 6+ or worse, or reliant on other saves, SL and AC are equals. AC is a little better against 5+, and *twice* as good against 4+. AC kicks SL's ass against 3+ and 2+ as well.

Against AV10/11, AC and SL are equals. Against AV12, AC pens any time SL would glance, making it much, much better. Against AV13+, ACs do a decent amount of damage (glance or pen AV14 on (1/6)(2/3), or 1/9, compared to a Lascannon doing so at 1/3. But 4 shots compared to 1. So better at killing Land Raiders than Lascannons!). ACs dominate SLs at killing medium and heavy vehicles. And tie on light vehicles.

So, the AC is much better than a SL. Maybe not worth twice as much, but termies much cheaper than WW, so by points would have absurdly better dakka.

Then comes range. Yes, they would have to get closer. If a WW had to get within 24". I'll get to that.

Survivability. T4 2+/5++ vs AV10 open topped 5++ 2hp.
Termies cost about half, but have half the AP.
Against s4 ap3+, its (1/2)(1/6) to cause a wound vs (1/6)(2/3) to glance a HP. Before considering points, Termies come out ahead. By noticeably less than half.
Against s6ap3+, its (5/6)(1/6) vs (4/6)(4/6). (5/36) vs (16/36). More than 3x as likely to hurt a WW than a Termie. And most of those (2/3) are pens at +1.
Against s8ap2, its (5/6)(2/3) vs (5/6)(2/3). Equal on standard HP loss, but AP2 pens (80% of WW HP loss) roll at +2, for a 1/3 of causing an explodes, 2/3 of any other effect. I'd give this instance to Termies.

So Termies are much more durable for their points.

In melee, WW have 1 s5 ap- attack at initiative. Termies have 2 s8 ap2 attacks each At i1. I shouldn't need to run numbers there - Termies kill stuff hard. War Walker CC is trivial. Termies punk anything in melee short of AP2 CC units. War Walkers lose to anything better than s3.

So Termies can afford to be within 24" of the enemy. With few exceptions, the closer the better. WW cannot. Must stay far away.

Termies are more survivable. Termies are great in CC. Termie dakka with ACs would be a little worse than WW, model to model. Lower mobility, but it won't help WW even things out.

So, unless we're talking 80 ppm, Assault Cannons on Termies make Termies better WW than WW. While also retaining being better Termies than WW. Just not fair.

Termies aren't Devastators. If you play them as such, you're using them wrong. If you buff them to be better Devs while they retain their survivability, you just break the game further.

Please don't make my termies cheese.

It's the only change I can think of that would make me actually use them.

Buffing the stormbolter is more useless S4 shooting that I already have an entire army of. Getting them into melee is not cost effective, and increasingly they will just run into a tarpit like Wraiths that they can't win against. I largely agree with the Xeno players that buffing 2+/5++ saves would leave a bad taste in my mouth.

Maybe give them heavy bolters? But I still wouldn't take them because heavy bolters suck. Because S5 in practice is almost as bad as S4.

"ACs dominate SLs at killing medium and heavy vehicles. And tie on light vehicles."

Too bad for AC users that SLs usually outnumber their ACs by a stupid amount.

"So Termies can afford to be within 24" of the enemy."

Unless that enemy is grav cents, which would still dominate this AC terminator squad, which is why the terminators can't cost 80 ppm.

"Just not fair."

I find myself not able to care about fair vis a vis the Eldar. Is it fair for an entire list to spit S6/7 shots, some pseudo rending, non stop all game?

Terminators are awful. Laughable, really, especially compared to their fluff. They have no mathematical niche in this game now that weapons must exist to stop MCs with 2+ saves. Not to mention units that are faster and more durable like TWC and Wraiths. I'm just trying to give them a new niche. Maybe change the squads to 50% TH/SS and 50% assault cannon default then?

More options in Termie squads could be nice.

If you gave them all ACs for less than 80 ppm, ACs would outnumber SLs by a stupid amount. I mean, wow.

DevCents and grav bikers are a large part of what makes termies 'bad'. Those things are stupid.

The other large part, though, is the meta. If I need to handle t6 2+/5++ 4-5wounds, I need to stack weapons that can handle them. Those weapons are generally the hard counter to Termies. So I will always be well geared for Termie killing. Any reasonable model will have a problem with things specifically designed to kill it. And, with what the meta is now, Termies, like Land Raiders, are too similar to the current cornerstones of the meta. So most lists they go up against are designed to kill them.

Look at the #2 from LVO. Scout spam. Everyone is so geared for killing hard targets and death stars and Knights, MSU with little for hard targets won the day.

So, if you play someone planning for Termies, don't bring Termies. Don't buff them to the point that nothing can counter them.

"DevCents and grav bikers are a large part of what makes termies 'bad'. Those things are stupid. "

Doesn't matter. They exist and are legal. Terminators must evolve to compensate or become dust collectors.

"Don't buff them to the point that nothing can counter them."

I just want them to have a job that they are good at. Right now they have nothing. You don't need specialized weapons to kill terminators. This has been shown over and over.

They are awful even against the weapons they should be great against. And one reason they are awful is that they can't get enemy models off the board so they have to weather turn after turn of fire that can stack huge numbers of wounds on T4. As it stands now, EVERYTHING is designed to kill terminators.

For the OP, there is no easy fix for terminators. Most proposed solutions leave them still garbage, and any attempts to give them their own niche get them labeled as "OP". More durability is not the answer to me, as people are already gaming against 2+ save MCs.

My point is that a fix for Termies would be changing other units, not them.

Bharring wrote:
My point is that a fix for Termies would be changing other units, not them.

That's a non-fix, as they are vulnerable to everything in the game currently. As I pointed out above. They need a niche that means something. They haven't been good... ever.

IG Guardsman:
(1/2)(1/3)(1/6) = (1/36)(wound/shot)
Tac Termie:
(2/3)(2/3)(1) = (4/9)(wound/shot)

(4/9):(1/36) = 16/1
40 pts/ 16 = 2.5

Assuming Guardsmen are within 12", they need to be 2.5 ppm or cheaper to outshoot Termies point-for-point.

Its quite extreme - and inaccurate - to say they lose to anything. As shown, the Lasgun isn't the Termie killer you make it to be.

Bharring wrote:
IG Guardsman:
(1/2)(1/3)(1/6) = (1/36)(wound/shot)
Tac Termie:
(2/3)(2/3)(1) = (4/9)(wound/shot)

(4/9):(1/36) = 16/1
40 pts/ 16 = 2.5

Assuming Guardsmen are within 12", they need to be 2.5 ppm or cheaper to outshoot Termies point-for-point.

Its quite extreme - and inaccurate - to say they lose to anything. As shown, the Lasgun isn't the Termie killer you make it to be.

Shhh, if you start bringing in the math, people will actually realize that marines aren't underpowered.

Apply that same exercise on the much maligned Tac Marines and you'll see that they're almost three times more points efficient than guardsmen when going head to head.

Boring maths argument:



That said, what Terminators do is provide force concentration; they're essentially a Tactical Squad squeezed into a smaller footprint, with Power Fists to punch the living crap out of things. The problem is that melee units that are reliant on walking across the board to get into combat are awful. The Tactical Terminators are costed with their Power Fists in mind, but you're rarely if ever going to get to use them against anything other than what your opponent lets you.

 TheSilo wrote:

Bharring wrote:
IG Guardsman:
(1/2)(1/3)(1/6) = (1/36)(wound/shot)
Tac Termie:
(2/3)(2/3)(1) = (4/9)(wound/shot)

(4/9):(1/36) = 16/1
40 pts/ 16 = 2.5

Assuming Guardsmen are within 12", they need to be 2.5 ppm or cheaper to outshoot Termies point-for-point.

Its quite extreme - and inaccurate - to say they lose to anything. As shown, the Lasgun isn't the Termie killer you make it to be.

Shhh, if you start bringing in the math, people will actually realize that marines aren't underpowered.

Apply that same exercise on the much maligned Tac Marines and you'll see that they're almost three times more points efficient than guardsmen when going head to head.

Maybe, but they never get to go head to head with guardsmen. They've been blown apart by artillery by the time they get to bolter range. What makes tacs bad is sometimes hard to quantify with pure math. You can do the math of tacs heads up against guardsmen, but if that scenario never comes up, then it doesn't matter. The IG minimizes the troop tax, which is desirable to a jack-of-all-trades-but-accomplishes-nothing-in-practice expensive trooper.

Bharring wrote:
IG Guardsman:
(1/2)(1/3)(1/6) = (1/36)(wound/shot)
Tac Termie:
(2/3)(2/3)(1) = (4/9)(wound/shot)

(4/9):(1/36) = 16/1
40 pts/ 16 = 2.5

Assuming Guardsmen are within 12", they need to be 2.5 ppm or cheaper to outshoot Termies point-for-point.

Its quite extreme - and inaccurate - to say they lose to anything. As shown, the Lasgun isn't the Termie killer you make it to be.

But 200 pts gets you 40 guardsmen vs 5 terminators. Those 40 guardsmen kill about 80 pts of terminators and the terminators coming back kill only 23 pts of guardsmen. So they are indeed being outshot by the guardsmen. The terminators don't have the durability/pt to compete. Give the terminators an assault cannon and the guardsmen some melta/plasma and it gets worse quickly. It's embarrassing.

As for tac marines, 200 pts gets you 14. This will go much better, since the marines have far more shots. The guardsmen only kill about 56 pts of marines, whereas the marines frag 62 pts of guardsmen. This is pretty much an even trade, not the three times efficiency claimed up above. This also illustrates the failure of terminators being centered around the inability to put enough shots in the air. Hence wanting to give them assault cannons.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Boring maths argument:

Spoiler:

Terminators being better at killing Guardsmen than the reverse is beside the point; it's not the Guardsmen that are dangerous, it's the fact that there's a few Special Weapons hidden in a sea of wounds, or that the units that are actual threats to the Terminators annihilate them as efficiently as the same number of points in Guardsmen with volume of fire.

Let's check the durability of Terminators vs. Guardsmen, shall we?

Effective wounds of 200 points of Terminators vs. bolter-quality fire (S4 AP5): 30.

Effective wounds of 200 points of Guardsmen vs. bolter-quality fire: 40.

The guardsmen are going to take 1/3 more wounds from every hit, since they're only T3 as opposed to T4, so the 33% more effective wounds even out, making Guardsmen in the open as durable to bolter fire as Terminators. Add in cover and the Guardsmen are 33% more resilient to small-arms than Terminators (assuning 5+ cover, 4+ cover just makes it hilarious). Anything AP2 will also hilariously skew the comparison. Anything S6 or above (you know, part of what we're complaining about) wound both Marines and Guardsmen on a 2+, making the T4 pointless.

Moving on:

Lost efficiency per dead model of Terminators: 20%.

Lost efficiency per dead Guardsman: 2.5%.

Average number of wounds to reduce power by 20% for Terminators is 6. The same number for Guardsmen is 8, Guardsmen lose out slightly due to T3 vs T4 but are ahead again as soon as there's cover. There's also the fact that the Guardsmen are much more consistent; rolling for two Terminator saves is 40% of your unit down the drain, whereas it's a whopping 5% of the Guardsmen (if they even get to save). Sure, it means that there's also the possibility of Terminators tanking absolutely everything thrown at them, but list building is supposed to be done on a basis of minimizing the bad outcomes as to reduce risk.

Once the Guardsmen start toting Plasma Guns it's not even a contest anymore, even if the Terminators get an Assault Cannon.


In summary, the ability to ignore statistical flukes, generating consistency, is much more valuable than the theoretical maximum output of a unit, because it lets you plan around how the unit is likely to perform. Guardsmen are much better at this than Terminators, and are also more durable against pretty much everything in the game that isn't a Sweeping Advance.

That said, what Terminators do is provide force concentration; they're essentially a Tactical Squad squeezed into a smaller footprint, with Power Fists to punch the living crap out of things. The problem is that melee units that are reliant on walking across the board to get into combat are awful. The Tactical Terminators are costed with their Power Fists in mind, but you're rarely if ever going to get to use them against anything other than what your opponent lets you.

The last thing marines need is to be giving up more points on a failed save. Force concentration essentially fails in this game.

If you're giving Guardsmen first salvo, why? Did they just pop your LR?

If you're within 12" of them, it should be for a charge. If you're 12-24" away, halve the Guard's shooting.

I wasn't saying Termies are the end-all-be-all of killing Guard. I was showing that Lasguns don't kill them very quickly. At 5ppm, I suppose you can't ignore them either.

Want to see them shine? Charge Tac squads or Land Raiders or Hammerheads. Engage Howling Banshees or Scorpions. Go after Noise Marines. Don't stand in the killzone twiddling your thumbs and wonder why you aren't winning.

Bharring wrote:
If you're giving Guardsmen first salvo, why? Did they just pop your LR?

If you're within 12" of them, it should be for a charge. If you're 12-24" away, halve the Guard's shooting.

I wasn't saying Termies are the end-all-be-all of killing Guard. I was showing that Lasguns don't kill them very quickly. At 5ppm, I suppose you can't ignore them either.

Want to see them shine? Charge Tac squads or Land Raiders or Hammerheads. Engage Howling Banshees or Scorpions. Go after Noise Marines. Don't stand in the killzone twiddling your thumbs and wonder why you aren't winning.

I don't need terminators to deal with anything you listed. In fact, there are cheaper, more effective solutions to all of those units. In my experience, anywhere within 36" of the Xenos is the killzone. It's hard to avoid that. You just have to get through it fast, where terminators fail again.

" Did they just pop your LR? "

Now you are comparing guardsmen to a 450 point combo. 450 pts of IG can bring a staggering amount of dakka. Citing the land raider just weakens the position of the terminators, because that vehicle is also overcosted and not very good, imo.

The LR cite was just pointing out that in most situations, Guardsmen en masse won't be shooting at Termies within 12" before the termies can shoot at all. You're misreading it.

And how the hell does all Xenos - not just Serpent Spam - have a 36" kill zone? Tau are long range, so I get that. Necrons are mostly 24", like Marines, but fewer long range weapons. Orkz... No. Dark Eldar? 24" generally, 36" for heavies comparable to 48" range SM weapons. Other Eldar? Most infantry is 18" or shorter.

Compare everything to the Serpent and it keeps coming up short. Compare to Kalabites or Avengers or Ork Boys, and things get more fair.

The next step is of course to point out that in CC terminators go from 2 S4 Ap5 attacks to 2 S8 Ap2 attacks. So that makes a bit of difference.

 TheSilo wrote:
The next step is of course to point out that in CC terminators go from 2 S4 Ap5 attacks to 2 S8 Ap2 attacks. So that makes a bit of difference.

Assuming your opponent lets you get there. Or gives you a unit where S8 AP2 matters. Assault is very, very weak unless you are TWC or Wraiths. Even the dreaded DC are, in practice, kinda meh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
The LR cite was just pointing out that in most situations, Guardsmen en masse won't be shooting at Termies within 12" before the termies can shoot at all. You're misreading it.

And how the hell does all Xenos - not just Serpent Spam - have a 36" kill zone? Tau are long range, so I get that. Necrons are mostly 24", like Marines, but fewer long range weapons. Orkz... No. Dark Eldar? 24" generally, 36" for heavies comparable to 48" range SM weapons. Other Eldar? Most infantry is 18" or shorter.

Compare everything to the Serpent and it keeps coming up short. Compare to Kalabites or Avengers or Ork Boys, and things get more fair.

I keep forgetting about the Xenos I never get to play against. I'm talking about endless streams of H Wraith Cannons, scatter lasers, star cannons, and serpent shields. And HYMP/Ion accelerators. Pretty much lays waste to me at 36". I keep hearing about Xenos that can't melt me at 36", but my opponents don't seem to want to give up the 36" advantage.

Oh piss. My Termies make melee regularly.

If you're going to gunline, bring gunline models?

For the rest of it, we're back to the meta being what's wrong with Termies, not the Termies themselves?

Another people spammed 2+ save deathstars and then the meta evolved to deal with it and now my terminators are useless thread.

Seriously though, Invisible cents are so good because they dish out damage and take non in return. Cents aren't very threatening without invisibility but they are considered one of the marines best units. Just make your terminators invisible and they'll survive to combat while dealing some ranged damage on the way.

TLDR; use your psychic powers to make termies invisible and your durability problems are solved.

Bharring wrote:
Oh piss. My Termies make melee regularly.

If you're going to gunline, bring gunline models?

For the rest of it, we're back to the meta being what's wrong with Termies, not the Termies themselves?

I completely disagree. Stormbolters are pathetic for a 40 pt model. And just because YOUR terminators make it to combat doesn't mean that other folks don't have massive, massive problems.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Just terminators of course silly.

Why would we buff the units that are already worth having?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think if you want to go the tactical dreadnought armor approach then make them av8,8,8 give them 1hp,keep the Ds rule,make them strength 5, and a 5+ invul save.
Also things like dreadknights, riptides, etc. which are incorrectly labeled MCs should be made walkers.

I like a lot of the thought process here, but two things.

1) I would still give them 2 hull points, just to make them a middle ground in durability between PA and Dreadnoughts.

2) I would give them AV 11 all around, or maybe 11/11/10. At 8 all around, they would actually become, in many ways, less durable than they are now. Plasma would auto glance on a successful hit, and pen on a 2+. Meltas, krak missiles, lascannons, etc, would auto-pen.

Other than that, I like the idea of just treating them like small, weak dreadnoughts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Punisher wrote:
Another people spammed 2+ save deathstars and then the meta evolved to deal with it and now my terminators are useless thread.

Seriously though, Invisible cents are so good because they dish out damage and take non in return. Cents aren't very threatening without invisibility but they are considered one of the marines best units. Just make your terminators invisible and they'll survive to combat while dealing some ranged damage on the way.

TLDR; use your psychic powers to make termies invisible and your durability problems are solved.

Ah, well, that fixes everything. As long as everybody uses the exact same power-gaming tactic, everything is good.

Seriously, people shouldn't have to rely on one particular power (which they may not even reliably generate), or playstyle, to make a unit that is supposed to be elite actually worth so,ething. Not to mention that doesn't help the marine armies that don't have access to telepathy.

I just Fixed Terminators! here it is, I can't believe SM players haven't thought about this before, it is so simple. Ok, here we go, Rule changes....None.

Now when you play with terminators, put them in a Landraider and drive them to where they need to go.. THEN! assault win and reboard your transport keeping in cover as much as possible.

God its so simple how did you guys not think of this before now?


Serious note. People are commenting on how termies die to shooting...well no $hit thats why we shoot at them....so they die. To solve this keep them in a transport until absolutely necessary to get them out. "they die to AP weapons to easily" Again no $hit thats the point of having PK and PF and LC MM and regular Melta weapons. there is no fix for this except that you get a 5+ invul save against them. Is it perfect? no but if you buffed it anymore terminators would be OP and you would have to increase their point cost. You should think of terminators as one shot weapons. Launch them at what you NEED dead and forget about them. If they survive then WOOHOO! bonus. If they die, well they more then likely accomplished their mission before dying to 120 Lasgun shots or whatever else shot at them.