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BW are 110pt transports, open topped with 0 weapons. when you upgrade them ALL the way to be useful, 4 big shootas, a lobba or rokkit and a killkannon you have a VERY expensive model. your looking at 175pt model that has side armor 12 and rear armor 10. Yes its a good vehicle but not as good as a Landraider. I don't know about you, but every game I play my nobz and mega nobz get focus fired by lascannons and such weapons because people don't want them coming nearem. On top of that, if i do put them in a trukk it can literally die from bolter fire :-P. No man Terminators are good, you just need to focus them to a specific task and then launchem. Thats how i use the meganobz and it works...ish, i think i still prefer regular nobz./

BW are much better than LR just because of the price tag. LR are terrible in my experience because of how much they gimp your model count.

" No man Terminators are good, you just need to focus them to a specific task and then launchem"

You need to be much more specific for me to take your point seriously. There are no tasks at which they are any good, though, so I'm not even sure what you are taking about.

Givem CCW and sendem against vehicles and shooty thinz that need to die. Givem da cyclone rokkit launcha and stikkem on obj and you got a helluva good unit to hold objz.

Drop pod them or DSem and me and da boyz be happy

"u got a helluva good unit to hold objz. "

Not really. Their firepower is miserably low.

"Drop pod them or DSem and me and da boyz be happy"

Duh.

you say "Duh" but every single game I play Space marines they either DS them or use drop pods. And then I kill them easily. you bring a Land raider and some assault terminators and Im in trouble, I have a wicked hard time killing the raider and its firing TW LC and TW HB at me the entire time its driving up to thwack whatever you want your CCW termies to kill. No they are a good unit, they need a few more options but they are still good enough without them. 5 Termies can take a lot of different toyz you just need to customize them a bit more

" you bring a Land raider and some assault terminators and Im in trouble"

No, you're not. You just need to game against their model count at that point. Land Raiders are terrible units; especially in a TAC list. I've won many games when my opponent still had 3 LRs on the table, they just had nothing else. Remember that assault elements have to assault what you let them assault, unlike shooting, where they choose what gets shot.

I still maintain that terminators are awful unit no matter how they are used because they are very ignorable at range, and if they get close, I can cripple them with one or two shooting volleys.

" I play Space marines they either DS them or use drop pods."

They are not paying attention to their opponent then. As BA, I spend a lot of movement running AWAY from Orks. Or, as I call them, the coward angels.

That just sounds weird. 2" away but not in combat is the perfect range for fighting orks.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
That just sounds weird. 2" away but not in combat is the perfect range for fighting orks.

Uhh.. no. Because on their turn you WILL be in combat.

You just don't have enough flamers, lol.

Furyou is a Bolter b1tch player though, so the closer the better, more flamers :-P

Give terminators walker status with 1hp. avf11 avs11 avb10 = immunity to str3 and str4 weapons but easy kill to plasma since you already dont get an armor save. Also as a walker the termi retain snp n now can shoot all guns.

I'll pass. Walkers are also pretty bad.

Martel732 wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
That just sounds weird. 2" away but not in combat is the perfect range for fighting orks.

Uhh.. no. Because on their turn you WILL be in combat.

If there are enough Orks left to threaten you in combat after that you're doing something wrong.

(Then again I play Elysians, my solution to Orks is carpet-bombing with MRPs)

The Orks do have more than one squad around, you know.

We have a house rule that has changed the Terminator stat line to 2 wounds and they are immune to instant death for a cost of 5pts more. It seems to work pretty well.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The problem with terminators has nothing to do with their saves. It has everything to do with their firepower.

You're paying for the power fist or twin lightning claws, depending. So you're spending a ton of points for melee prowess on a unit that absolutely sucks at getting into close combat. You have to spend 240 points on a delivery system, ffs. Deep striking them is a bad idea because their own shooting won't accomplish much, and then they get drowned in gunfire on your opponent's next turn.

Even then, they aren't as good at close quarters combat as basic space marines! THEY CAN'T SWEEPING ADVANCE. Functionally, they serve no purpose.

They need their dreadful shooting fixed, and that's it. I've proposed before, and I'll say it again, making Storm Bolters Salvo 2/3. Conceptually, Storm Bolters are supposed to spit ammo, right? It doesn't make sense they are basically regular boltguns with slightly more shots beyond 12". It'd also bolster, very slightly, the pathetic weaponry on other space marine vehicles. It'd also make it so there's a point to have every last terminator rocking Relentless.

Doesn't solve the problem, no. But it does mean they make up their points cost a little bit. 15 shots is a lot better than 10.

I agree that the problem isn't their saves (although a 4+ invul might be warranted), it's their inability to get into close combat, where their main strength lies (especially Wolf Guard Terminators, who gain access to a significantly more diverse selection of melee weapons). Personally, though, I'd as soon jump them up a couple points and give terminators a rule allowing them to assault out of deep strike (maybe with a -2 penalty to their charge range, as if they were charing into difficult terrain), rather than make them more shooty. Terminators are supposed to teleport onto the field straight into the thick of battle.

kveldulf wrote:
that is the inherent purpose for even fielding them - being a bulwark.
This would really make them impressive human shields - which is what they are suppose to be.

Is... Is this what people thnk Terminators are supposed to be?

I could disagree more strongly. They are vital, ancient, valuable suits of armour for the most skilled warriors in the chapter. They are for situations when power armour doesn't provide enough oomph. They are for bursting into the middle of the enemy, smacking heads and brecking the enemy.

Close fire in hulks. Narrow corridors. Thick industrial complexes. Heck, even heavy forest would suit.

But bulwarks on an open battlefield? No. Not ever.

This may explain why I disagree with every proposed 'solution' to terminators that I've seen thus far...

Martel732 wrote:


Give them all assault cannons. Then fix the cost of an assault cannon terminator. This will actually make the Imperial assault cannon almost as useful as the Eldar scatter laser (but not quite), because there would finally be a platform to mass them up, which is where they would be effective. Any variant of the stormbolter is useless garbage. S4 shooting on "elite" models needs to go. It's awful and useless.

You've got a point about S4 shooting on an elite unit. However, the Assault Cannon idea is too powerful I think. Assuming they'd make that function the same as Devastator squads where up to 4 guys could use the heavy weapons, you're looking at 280 points for 2+ sv 5++, 16 S6 Ap4 Rending shots. That's extreme.

Then again, Iron Warriors in 30k have access to terminators that are 50 points a dude and every last guy in the whole squad is equipped with cyclone missile launchers, so what the hell do I know.

Besides, if you want a platform to mass Assault Cannons, there already is one. Land Speeders are cheap (points wise) mobile units with a lot of firepower. If anything, they need to make Assault Cannons a flat 20 points all around like Terminators have them, so assault cannon Land Speeders would be more viable.

I also think S4 shooting is just fine, at BS4. It's perfectly capable of inflicting casualties against enemy infantry. The issue with it being for an elite unit like Terminators is they are not shooting at enemy infantry as they have higher priority targets. As such, they aren't equipped with guns that can even do anything to what they want to go punch, and all their heavy weapons make target priority even that much weirder for shooting phases. Deathwing Terminators having splitfire prove it for me, as I can easily tag down some light vehicle with an assault cannon while killing 3 or so dudes in some infantry squad.

Another issue with "JUST GIVE THEM ALL HEAVY WEAPONS" is that GW would have to backtrack years of world-building and alienate fans of the units. Terminators have stormbolters. That's it. That's what they got, just deal with it. I know I wouldn't want to go hack off 15 terminator shooting arms for spare bits from other people's boxes if they just decided terminators are all utilizing assault cannons now. From a rules AND fluff standpoint, the stormbolter needs to be changed for the better if we're going to improve Terminator shooting.

 SRSFACE wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


Give them all assault cannons. Then fix the cost of an assault cannon terminator. This will actually make the Imperial assault cannon almost as useful as the Eldar scatter laser (but not quite), because there would finally be a platform to mass them up, which is where they would be effective. Any variant of the stormbolter is useless garbage. S4 shooting on "elite" models needs to go. It's awful and useless.

You've got a point about S4 shooting on an elite unit. However, the Assault Cannon idea is too powerful I think. Assuming they'd make that function the same as Devastator squads where up to 4 guys could use the heavy weapons, you're looking at 280 points for 2+ sv 5++, 16 S6 Ap4 Rending shots. That's extreme.

Then again, Iron Warriors in 30k have access to terminators that are 50 points a dude and every last guy in the whole squad is equipped with cyclone missile launchers, so what the hell do I know.

Besides, if you want a platform to mass Assault Cannons, there already is one. Land Speeders are cheap (points wise) mobile units with a lot of firepower. If anything, they need to make Assault Cannons a flat 20 points all around like Terminators have them, so assault cannon Land Speeders would be more viable.

I also think S4 shooting is just fine, at BS4. It's perfectly capable of inflicting casualties against enemy infantry. The issue with it being for an elite unit like Terminators is they are not shooting at enemy infantry as they have higher priority targets. As such, they aren't equipped with guns that can even do anything to what they want to go punch, and all their heavy weapons make target priority even that much weirder for shooting phases. Deathwing Terminators having splitfire prove it for me, as I can easily tag down some light vehicle with an assault cannon while killing 3 or so dudes in some infantry squad.

Another issue with "JUST GIVE THEM ALL HEAVY WEAPONS" is that GW would have to backtrack years of world-building and alienate fans of the units. Terminators have stormbolters. That's it. That's what they got, just deal with it. I know I wouldn't want to go hack off 15 terminator shooting arms for spare bits from other people's boxes if they just decided terminators are all utilizing assault cannons now. From a rules AND fluff standpoint, the stormbolter needs to be changed for the better if we're going to improve Terminator shooting.

Assault cannons are not too powerful given that Eldar suitcases probably have scatter lasers mounted on them. Scatter lasers EVERYWHERE in that army.

Landspeeders are a damn joke with assault cannons.

"I also think S4 shooting is just fine, at BS4. It's perfectly capable of inflicting casualties against enemy infantry. "

When do I get shoot at that, though?

"GW would have to backtrack years of world-building and alienate fans of the units"

I don't care about that. Stormbolters are joke. Especially on a 40 pt model. The stormbolter is a lost cause. S4 shooting is a joke. If terminators keep S4 shooting, they will always be a joke.

"That's extreme. "

Have you played this game lately? In 6th, I got shot by 52 S6/7 shots by Eldar in one turn once. But you want to talk extreme?

"I wouldn't want to go hack off 15 terminator shooting arms for spare bits from other people's boxes if they just decided terminators are all utilizing assault cannons now"

I'd gladly do it if it made them usable. As they are now, they are dust collectors.

kveldulf wrote:
I think the easiest way to resolve the AP2 issue with terminators would be to make their armour save a 1+ [Remember a roll of a 1 always fails].

Thoughts?

If terminators are going to be appropriately costed to reflect their 2+ invulnerable save, then go right ahead. I expect SM players will get right back to complaining about how their terminators now cost twice as much and die to lasguns just as easily.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:

kveldulf wrote:

If they dropped terminators to 25 points, then they would be viable.

25 points is too low... that's the same as Lychguard.
27/8 points is more fair (2/3 points for a shooting weapon, slightly better defense, Deep Strike and ATSKNF)

Good - they're worse than Lychguard. Lychguard trade S8 at I1 for S7 at I2. They trade deep strike for the ability to sweeping advance. They trade weak shooting for T5. They trade ATSKNF for LD10 and armourbane. On top of that, their flying transport is cheaper, they're better vs AP2 and, if in a Decurian or with a cryptek (aka the only times you take Lychguard) then they're better vs everything other than exactly AP3. If anything they should cost less still, because Lychguard are better VS literally every commonly taken unit in the game - tanks, infantry, elite infantry, MCs, shooting, you name it.

TheSilo wrote:

kveldulf wrote:
I think the easiest way to resolve the AP2 issue with terminators would be to make their armour save a 1+ [Remember a roll of a 1 always fails].

Thoughts?

If terminators are going to be appropriately costed to reflect their 2+ invulnerable save, then go right ahead. I expect SM players will get right back to complaining about how their terminators now cost twice as much and die to lasguns just as easily.

Lychguard with shields in either a Decurian or with crypteks already basically have T5 2++s. Having a unit which costs 10 points more doing the same on T4 is hardly going to break the game.

 TheSilo wrote:

kveldulf wrote:
I think the easiest way to resolve the AP2 issue with terminators would be to make their armour save a 1+ [Remember a roll of a 1 always fails].

Thoughts?

If terminators are going to be appropriately costed to reflect their 2+ invulnerable save, then go right ahead. I expect SM players will get right back to complaining about how their terminators now cost twice as much and die to lasguns just as easily.

? Huh.... my proposition wasn't about giving them an invulnerable save. They may get a save from most weapons on a 1+ but not all.

kveldulf wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

kveldulf wrote:
I think the easiest way to resolve the AP2 issue with terminators would be to make their armour save a 1+ [Remember a roll of a 1 always fails].

Thoughts?

If terminators are going to be appropriately costed to reflect their 2+ invulnerable save, then go right ahead. I expect SM players will get right back to complaining about how their terminators now cost twice as much and die to lasguns just as easily.

? Huh.... my proposition wasn't about giving them an invulnerable save. They may get a save from most weapons on a 1+ but not all.

Your proposal is a 2+ invulnerable for all intents and purposes. They aren't vulnerable to melta bombs, so rail guns and melta guns are literally the only weapons that could bypass the armor. The only other weapons would be those that allow no armor saves (c'tan phase sword, psychic shriek).

Keep them expensive but give them:
Two wounds
Ignore unwieldy effect
Wrist mount bolters to power/chain fist, claws
Let them attack at initiative with power weapons.

So if you take a claw and and chainfist you get two bolters or they become twin-linked.

I mean isn't or wasn't their armor called tactical dreadnought armor? This way they're more akin to dreads.

So the trade off is have ranged and melee attacks or have 3++ with hammer and shield

Going back to the original idea...

kveldulf wrote:
I think the easiest way to resolve the AP2 issue with terminators would be to make their armour save a 1+ [Remember a roll of a 1 always fails].

Thoughts?

If I understand what your saying, 1+ armour save means you have a 2+ armour save (since 1s always fail) on anything but AP1? I think that's an amazing idea! You'd have to change rending to AP1 but I agree that it's much needed

Good Idea

Out of curiosity, do you guys suggest the same buffs to other 2+ save units like Broadsides or will this be a strictly Terminator thing?

Just terminators of course silly.

Why would we buff the units that are already worth having?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think if you want to go the tactical dreadnought armor approach then make them av8,8,8 give them 1hp,keep the Ds rule,make them strength 5, and a 5+ invul save.
Also things like dreadknights, riptides, etc. which are incorrectly labeled MCs should be made walkers.

SGTPozy wrote:
Out of curiosity, do you guys suggest the same buffs to other 2+ save units like Broadsides or will this be a strictly Terminator thing?

Broadsides are already incredible. Terminators are currently on the other end of the spectrum. I myself don't advocate the 2+ save buff, but instead a firepower increase to make them worth having.

What about Phoenix Lords? Sure, they're dirty Eldar, but they are weak. Or is this just for SM?

A 1+ save is still pointless. Terminators die to small arms pretty easily too, a 2+ is only as durable as two 3+ saves vs bolters and no-one has trouble murdering MEQ. They need more wounds or a points cut - nothing else makes them usable. Even in combat they're not great any more. In the Necron dex alone, here's a list of things which beat Tactical Terminators in assault:
-Flayed ones (15 for cost of 5)
-Lychguard
-Praetorians
-Wraiths
-Spyders

Of those, Praetorians frankly shame them. Compared to a base terminator you get:
+1 T
Jump (inc. 12" move, potential to reroll assault, hammerr of wrath)
Can sweeping advance

You trade the following:
S8 AP2 at I1 vs S5 AP2 at I2 (usually better)
2 S4 AP5 shots at 24" range vs 1 S5 AP2 shot at 12" range (Praetorians take this the majority of the time)
2+/5++ vs 3+ followed by 5+ (just a bit less durable, same vs AP2)

Now, if they're in a Decurian, they get the following:
4+ RP (become more durable VS anything not exactly AP3)
Reroll to hit, wound and pen in shooting phase vs 1 unit

Terminators can't even hope to compete with them really, and they cost 12 points LESS. It's absurd how overcosted Terminators are currently. It doesn't help that the transport dedicated too getting them into combat is also overcosted. I swear, someone lost hard at Space Hulk back in the day, and has never allowed Terminators to be good since.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Just terminators of course silly.

Why would we buff the units that are already worth having?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think if you want to go the tactical dreadnought armor approach then make them av8,8,8 give them 1hp,keep the Ds rule,make them strength 5, and a 5+ invul save.
Also things like dreadknights, riptides, etc. which are incorrectly labeled MCs should be made walkers.

AV8 is functionally equivalent to T4. You're effectively advocating reducing their save from a 2+ to a 5++.