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I think the easiest way to resolve the AP2 issue with terminators would be to make their armour save a 1+ [Remember a roll of a 1 always fails].

Thoughts?

So its functionality a 2+ with 6+ reroll then? Kind of like higher ballistics skill?

kveldulf wrote:
I think the easiest way to resolve the AP2 issue with terminators would be to make their armour save a 1+ [Remember a roll of a 1 always fails].

Thoughts?

A roll of a 1 doesn't always fail, but in the case of saves you're correct. (semantics, sure, but it's an important one)
However, there's also the issue of

BRB, page 38, Maximum save wrote: ... However, no save (armour, cover, or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+ ...

I'll assume this is supposed to be an exception to that rule.

I get where you're going with this, trying to make it so only AP1 will actually ignore their armour save. It's better off to word it as "Models in Terminator Armour can make armour saves against AP2 weapons, even though they are not normally allowed to".

All in all, I like it as an idea.

No he's saying it wouldn't change other than to make termies only die to melta/fusion etc without an armor save. (@doomshaka)

While I think that ap2 is a bit heavy in the game, I take more issue with them dying to 6 lasgun wounds, so I'd support 2w over the 1+ save.

niv-mizzet wrote:
No he's saying it wouldn't change other than to make termies only die to melta/fusion etc without an armor save.

While I think that ap2 is a bit heavy in the game, I take more issue with them dying to 6 lasgun wounds, so I'd support 2w over the 1+ save.

But then all it takes is 1 AP2 instant death wound (which tend to come hand in hand as far as I can tell). This makes the 2w useless.

niv-mizzet wrote:
No he's saying it wouldn't change other than to make termies only die to melta/fusion etc without an armor save. (@doomshaka)

While I think that ap2 is a bit heavy in the game, I take more issue with them dying to 6 lasgun wounds, so I'd support 2w over the 1+ save.

Ok, I see what you mean now.

Letting terminators take their armor save would be a godsend. I mean lets be honest, who's going waste an ap1 shot on terminators when grav/ plasma and the like can be fired en masse at them.
Now they'd have a legitimate choice to make between the two.

AP2 wouldn't be as big of an issue if terminators had some way to hurt their opponent at range.

The issue with Terminators isn't vulnerability to AP2 so much as it is vulnerability to everything. They're weaker to lasguns point-for-point than Tactical Marines because everything else keeps getting cheaper and better and Terminators today are functionally identical to Terminators in fourth edition.

Martel732 wrote:
AP2 wouldn't be as big of an issue if terminators had some way to hurt their opponent at range.

I don't see their purpose/utility lacking; I see their lack of survivability the main problem, as that is the inherent purpose for even fielding them - being a bulwark.

Giving them more ranged options will diminish further reason for fielding devastators.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:
The issue with Terminators isn't vulnerability to AP2 so much as it is vulnerability to everything. They're weaker to lasguns point-for-point than Tactical Marines because everything else keeps getting cheaper and better and Terminators today are functionally identical to Terminators in fourth edition.

I agree. As to rectifying this particular issue, I see a few options:

Make terminators T7 - thus being immune to S3 weaponry and gaining more of a resistance to plasma/AP2 issue. This would really make them impressive human shields - which is what they are suppose to be.

Terminator armour rerolls armour saves - this is pretty simple, but it does add an extra level of rolling that could be a bit annoying.

Make a special rule in which weapons shooting at terminators must be Strength 4+ to inflict a wound.

AP1 weapons should pop open terminators fine, but AP2 should just force you to re-roll successful armour saves.

Honestly, it feels like terminators should get their own sticky thers are so many threads started about it.

And anyway, just make it a 4+ invul, none of this 1+ armor save nonsense.

"Giving them more ranged options will diminish further reason for fielding devastators. "

Who fields devastators anyway? They are not good as it is.


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 scuzz_bucket wrote:
Honestly, it feels like terminators should get their own sticky thers are so many threads started about it.

And anyway, just make it a 4+ invul, none of this 1+ armor save nonsense.

Still garbage with a 4+ invul.

kveldulf wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
The issue with Terminators isn't vulnerability to AP2 so much as it is vulnerability to everything. They're weaker to lasguns point-for-point than Tactical Marines because everything else keeps getting cheaper and better and Terminators today are functionally identical to Terminators in fourth edition.

I agree. As to rectifying this particular issue, I see a few options:

Make terminators T7 - thus being immune to S3 weaponry and gaining more of a resistance to plasma/AP2 issue. This would really make them impressive human shields - which is what they are suppose to be.

Terminator armour rerolls armour saves - this is pretty simple, but it does add an extra level of rolling that could be a bit annoying.

Make a special rule in which weapons shooting at terminators must be Strength 4+ to inflict a wound.

Of those 3 I, personally, wouldn't only be happy with the 2nd option. No way are you making Termis tougher than a Keeper of Secrets/as tough as a C'Tan. The 3rd option doesn't make them any tougher to bolter equivalents (which is what everyone compares them to) and so only increases their strength against IG.

Actually the way option 3 is worded would probably make them immune to most (all?) poison/fleshbane weapons as they're Str 1/0, as the auto-wound on a certain roll is only regardless of toughness...

Actually, I take back the AP2 thing. The problem with Terminators is not AP2/1 weaponry. The problem with them is their lack of firepower and their main weakness: cheap units that put out massive amounts of firepower. In all my life, the best unit I've ever seen at dealing with Terminators is a 50-man unit of conscripts. WS2 & BS2 they may be, but 100 shots at rapid-fire range is nothing to be scoffed at and with so many wounds, you will definitely roll a few ones. So, to put in my 2 cents, we need to do the following:

1. +1S & +1T for Terminator-equipped models
2. Power weapons by default, with access to power fists as options
3. Access to combi-weapons (assault 2)
4. Re-Rolls for failed armour saves against anything less than AP2

Martel732 wrote:

 scuzz_bucket wrote:
Honestly, it feels like terminators should get their own sticky thers are so many threads started about it.

And anyway, just make it a 4+ invul, none of this 1+ armor save nonsense.

Still garbage with a 4+ invul.

Yeah, i was kinda thinking that as I typed it, but I still feel 1+ as is nonsense. I figured giving them 3+ invul would just invalidate storm shields, but maybe making termies with shields 2+ invul? It seems like people dont like 2+ invul, but theyre termies, theyre supposed to be scary, thats what this thread (and countless others) is about right?

Martel732 wrote:
"Giving them more ranged options will diminish further reason for fielding devastators. "

Who fields devastators anyway? They are not good as it is.


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 scuzz_bucket wrote:
Honestly, it feels like terminators should get their own sticky thers are so many threads started about it.

And anyway, just make it a 4+ invul, none of this 1+ armor save nonsense.

Still garbage with a 4+ invul.

Aye I agree with Martel. Even with the 4+ your are still looking at a 50% chance to be wiped from 10 plasma shots (So like a few squads and/or support weapons shooting at them). In two rounds, they are most likely toast. A 5+ or a 4+ isn't going to fix their efficiency issue.

In order for terminators to be justifiable, they need to be distinguished enough point per point like what AnomanderRake mentioned earlier. Increasing their invulnerable save won't fix that problem, it will incrementally make them less crappy. Compared to a tactical marine they are just not near efficient at fulfilling roles.

If they dropped terminators to 25 points, then they would be viable.

Easier solution: Terminator Armor loses the invul and instead incoming attacks add +1 to their AP.

natpri771 wrote:
Actually, I take back the AP2 thing. The problem with Terminators is not AP2/1 weaponry. The problem with them is their lack of firepower and their main weakness: cheap units that put out massive amounts of firepower. In all my life, the best unit I've ever seen at dealing with Terminators is a 50-man unit of conscripts. WS2 & BS2 they may be, but 100 shots at rapid-fire range is nothing to be scoffed at and with so many wounds, you will definitely roll a few ones. So, to put in my 2 cents, we need to do the following:

1. +1S & +1T for Terminator-equipped models
2. Power weapons by default, with access to power fists as options
3. Access to combi-weapons (assault 2)
4. Re-Rolls for failed armour saves against anything less than AP2

I kind of like the options you put out, but in regards to the principle of giving them more firepower, I don't see that as really fixing things. If anything it's making the game more rock paper scissors - he who goes first wins. There's already enough of that mentality in the game, and I don't mind certain armies playing that way. As for space marines, I wouldn't want to see them going in that direction further.

Terminators will never have as much firepower as 50 IG. SM's should never match them in them so symmetrically. That's just my opinion.




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 Fenris Frost wrote:
Easier solution: Terminator Armor loses the invul and instead incoming attacks add +1 to their AP.

Hmmmm....

Hmmmmm.....

Hmmmmmmmmmm....

Not bad..... Honestly, yours is probably the better idea, as it jumps around the 2+ cap the rules have.

Are space wolf players normally this thoughtful?

kveldulf wrote:

If they dropped terminators to 25 points, then they would be viable.

25 points is too low... that's the same as Lychguard.
27/8 points is more fair (2/3 points for a shooting weapon, slightly better defense, Deep Strike and ATSKNF)

My short fix: 4+ Inv, 30ppm with power weapons (can still upgrade back to power fists/chainfists), two upgrade weapons per five guys.

The problem with terminators has nothing to do with their saves. It has everything to do with their firepower.

You're paying for the power fist or twin lightning claws, depending. So you're spending a ton of points for melee prowess on a unit that absolutely sucks at getting into close combat. You have to spend 240 points on a delivery system, ffs. Deep striking them is a bad idea because their own shooting won't accomplish much, and then they get drowned in gunfire on your opponent's next turn.

Even then, they aren't as good at close quarters combat as basic space marines! THEY CAN'T SWEEPING ADVANCE. Functionally, they serve no purpose.

They need their dreadful shooting fixed, and that's it. I've proposed before, and I'll say it again, making Storm Bolters Salvo 2/3. Conceptually, Storm Bolters are supposed to spit ammo, right? It doesn't make sense they are basically regular boltguns with slightly more shots beyond 12". It'd also bolster, very slightly, the pathetic weaponry on other space marine vehicles. It'd also make it so there's a point to have every last terminator rocking Relentless.

Doesn't solve the problem, no. But it does mean they make up their points cost a little bit. 15 shots is a lot better than 10.

kveldulf wrote:

natpri771 wrote:
Actually, I take back the AP2 thing. The problem with Terminators is not AP2/1 weaponry. The problem with them is their lack of firepower and their main weakness: cheap units that put out massive amounts of firepower. In all my life, the best unit I've ever seen at dealing with Terminators is a 50-man unit of conscripts. WS2 & BS2 they may be, but 100 shots at rapid-fire range is nothing to be scoffed at and with so many wounds, you will definitely roll a few ones. So, to put in my 2 cents, we need to do the following:

1. +1S & +1T for Terminator-equipped models
2. Power weapons by default, with access to power fists as options
3. Access to combi-weapons (assault 2)
4. Re-Rolls for failed armour saves against anything less than AP2

I kind of like the options you put out, but in regards to the principle of giving them more firepower, I don't see that as really fixing things. If anything it's making the game more rock paper scissors - he who goes first wins. There's already enough of that mentality in the game, and I don't mind certain armies playing that way. As for space marines, I wouldn't want to see them going in that direction further.

Terminators will never have as much firepower as 50 IG. SM's should never match them in them so symmetrically. That's just my opinion.

I'm not saying they should, all I'm saying is that they should have access to more shooty stuff like combi-weapons. They should also get rid of the whole compulsory power fists thing. They should drop their price 25pts with power weapons as their default load out with power fists as a 5pt option and chain fists as a 7pt option for everyone in the squad.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The problem with terminators has nothing to do with their saves. It has everything to do with their firepower.

You're paying for the power fist or twin lightning claws, depending. So you're spending a ton of points for melee prowess on a unit that absolutely sucks at getting into close combat. You have to spend 240 points on a delivery system, ffs. Deep striking them is a bad idea because their own shooting won't accomplish much, and then they get drowned in gunfire on your opponent's next turn.

Even then, they aren't as good at close quarters combat as basic space marines! THEY CAN'T SWEEPING ADVANCE. Functionally, they serve no purpose.

They need their dreadful shooting fixed, and that's it. I've proposed before, and I'll say it again, making Storm Bolters Salvo 2/3. Conceptually, Storm Bolters are supposed to spit ammo, right? It doesn't make sense they are basically regular boltguns with slightly more shots beyond 12". It'd also bolster, very slightly, the pathetic weaponry on other space marine vehicles. It'd also make it so there's a point to have every last terminator rocking Relentless.

Doesn't solve the problem, no. But it does mean they make up their points cost a little bit. 15 shots is a lot better than 10.

Give them all assault cannons. Then fix the cost of an assault cannon terminator. This will actually make the Imperial assault cannon almost as useful as the Eldar scatter laser (but not quite), because there would finally be a platform to mass them up, which is where they would be effective. Any variant of the stormbolter is useless garbage. S4 shooting on "elite" models needs to go. It's awful and useless.


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 AnomanderRake wrote:
My short fix: 4+ Inv, 30ppm with power weapons (can still upgrade back to power fists/chainfists), two upgrade weapons per five guys.

Still garbage, because you have 3 30 point models that are useless.

Terminators have a 2+ 5++with access to double rocket launcher, and assault cannons and heavy flamers. Your complaining about them because they die. They die because people think "Ohh wow this is amazing a 2+ save they wont die" and then my boyz charge them and kill 2-4 of them in the first turn of combat because I swing at Init 2 and I have 120 attacks on the charge :-p. Terminators serve a purpose, GW needs to refine it a bit because at this point people are using them instead of tactical marines. Tactical marines are probably the best unit a space marine can bring. Take 3 tactical squads and you have 30 models with 3 heavy weapons and 3 specialist weapons and a ton of accurate shooting. Terminators right now are to go after big scary things and die doing it, if your trying to make your termies gods of war your not using them right.


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if you want to find something to complain about, my Meganobz, TEQs cost 40pts a model and dont get the invul save and their weapons ARE garbage! unless you give them Kombia skorchas you wont do much with the gun except club people to death with it

"Your complaining about them because they die"

No, we're complaining because they accomplish nothing, and then die.

then you might not be using them right, thats not a knock at you, just my experience when playing space marines is they DS them in and I shoot them and then charge and poof no more terminators, you need to utilize them for one purpose or another, if they have ranged weapons, parkem on an objective and it will be a pain to get them off, if they are assaulting givem a LR and some CCW

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Terminators have a 2+ 5++with access to double rocket launcher, and assault cannons and heavy flamers. Your complaining about them because they die. They die because people think "Ohh wow this is amazing a 2+ save they wont die" and then my boyz charge them and kill 2-4 of them in the first turn of combat because I swing at Init 2 and I have 120 attacks on the charge :-p. Terminators serve a purpose, GW needs to refine it a bit because at this point people are using them instead of tactical marines. Tactical marines are probably the best unit a space marine can bring. Take 3 tactical squads and you have 30 models with 3 heavy weapons and 3 specialist weapons and a ton of accurate shooting. Terminators right now are to go after big scary things and die doing it, if your trying to make your termies gods of war your not using them right.


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if you want to find something to complain about, my Meganobz, TEQs cost 40pts a model and dont get the invul save and their weapons ARE garbage! unless you give them Kombia skorchas you wont do much with the gun except club people to death with it

Meganobz are infinitely better than Tactical Terminators because they have 2 wounds and access to assault transports that don't cost 200+ points. Meganobz are more durable against everything that isn't S8+ AP2-, which is most of the weapons in the game. But please, tell us all about how they're worse.

you answered your own question actually, yes all nobz have 2 wounds and we can go run around in a trukk...which blows up when you sneeze at it. But your forgetting the plethora of high strength AP2-1 weapons in this game.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
you answered your own question actually, yes all nobz have 2 wounds and we can go run around in a trukk...which blows up when you sneeze at it. But your forgetting the plethora of high strength AP2-1 weapons in this game.

Battlewagons are much sturdier, assault vehicles and still don't come anywhere near 200+ points. There's also the advantage of not having to take 5 Meganobz per squad; 3 Meganobz in a Trukk is a viable threat to most units in the game (and sturdier against most shooting than 200 points of Tactical Terminators!), 5 Tactical Terminators on foot is a joke.

Honestly, better survivability against more or less any shooting not coming from a Wraithknight, Riptide, or <12" is much better than a 5++. Compared to the absolutely immense amount of mid-high strength (5-7) mid-AP weapons out there, the number of long-range S8+ AP2- weapons actually being fielded is not very high at all.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
then you might not be using them right, thats not a knock at you, just my experience when playing space marines is they DS them in and I shoot them and then charge and poof no more terminators, you need to utilize them for one purpose or another, if they have ranged weapons, parkem on an objective and it will be a pain to get them off, if they are assaulting givem a LR and some CCW

They're not really a pain to get off an objective. One volley from grav bikers usually does the trick.

Land Raiders are overscosted junk piles as well. And now you are talking about a 450 pt ish assault element. No thanks.

I'm not using them, because there is not way to use them "right". Whenever my opponent has terminators, they almost always get schooled.


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 Ghazkuul wrote:
you answered your own question actually, yes all nobz have 2 wounds and we can go run around in a trukk...which blows up when you sneeze at it. But your forgetting the plethora of high strength AP2-1 weapons in this game.

All those lascannons nobody uses anymore? Maybe meltas? That's getting really close to Orks though.