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 Ghazkuul wrote:
I just Fixed Terminators! here it is, I can't believe SM players haven't thought about this before, it is so simple. Ok, here we go, Rule changes....None.

Now when you play with terminators, put them in a Landraider and drive them to where they need to go.. THEN! assault win and reboard your transport keeping in cover as much as possible.

God its so simple how did you guys not think of this before now?


Serious note. People are commenting on how termies die to shooting...well no $hit thats why we shoot at them....so they die. To solve this keep them in a transport until absolutely necessary to get them out. "they die to AP weapons to easily" Again no $hit thats the point of having PK and PF and LC MM and regular Melta weapons. there is no fix for this except that you get a 5+ invul save against them. Is it perfect? no but if you buffed it anymore terminators would be OP and you would have to increase their point cost. You should think of terminators as one shot weapons. Launch them at what you NEED dead and forget about them. If they survive then WOOHOO! bonus. If they die, well they more then likely accomplished their mission before dying to 120 Lasgun shots or whatever else shot at them.

If things worked the way you claim, no one would have a complaint. Using an overcosted transport that is frankly a terrible concept to ferry around an overcosted assault unit is not the path to victory. In my experience, terminators almost never accomplish their mission. They get fed a throwaway unit and then get shot to death the next turn after accomplishing nothing. It's kind of annoying having to do this with marines, but against something like a Guard list or Ork list, terminators are t-totally worthless. Yet another reason that marines are a poor troop concept.

Terminators are one of the worst units in the game right now. No one can agree on how to change this, but there are a number of buffs that could be given without making them "OP", because they are just about the furthest thing from OP right now.

Using a queen to take a piece is a terrible concept. Pawns have the same damage, and you get 8 of them for every queen. Queens get fed a throwaway power pieces, then get captured by anything standing nearby. Obviously, the Queen. Is brokenly bad. Its not so bad when you don't lose half your pieces early on, but if you still have all your pieces, feeding a queen a rook isn't so painful.

Queens are the worst unit in the game. Nobody cares much for them.

Bharring wrote:
Using a queen to take a piece is a terrible concept. Pawns have the same damage, and you get 8 of them for every queen. Queens get fed a throwaway power pieces, then get captured by anything standing nearby. Obviously, the Queen. Is brokenly bad. Its not so bad when you don't lose half your pieces early on, but if you still have all your pieces, feeding a queen a rook isn't so painful.

Queens are the worst unit in the game. Nobody cares much for them.

If only terminators were as good as a Queen in chess. Which they aren't. In fact, the more terminators my opponent has, the easier the game goes usually for me.

They're more like rooks. Direct. Tough. Lock things down. But rarely the pieces that get the kill. Rarely can take other pieces without being lost. But nobody considers rooks trash.

Bharring wrote:
They're more like rooks. Direct. Tough. Lock things down. But rarely the pieces that get the kill. Rarely can take other pieces without being lost. But nobody considers rooks trash.

But chess doesn't have point values like 40K. Terminators are trash relative to their cost. They are trash compared to how many points of enemies it takes to cripple them. The are trash compared to how many points of enemies they can take off the board.

Bharring wrote:
They're more like rooks. Direct. Tough. Lock things down. But rarely the pieces that get the kill. Rarely can take other pieces without being lost. But nobody considers rooks trash.

They might, if the other player could field twice as many rooks for the same price, their rooks also got to move on a diagonal and had a 5+ Feel No Pawn.

Okay, that metaphor got away from me.

My point is, chess is a terrible analogy, because in chess, both players have the exact same pieces, in the exact same quantities, and capable of doing the exact same things. In 40k, where different armies have different units, and pay a price to fied those units, you can't just look at a unit in a vacuum, you have to compare them to other units to achieve balance.

The analogy was only supposed to be that there is more to a unit than exactly how many points it removes from the table. Sometimes, a unit can win you the game without getting a kill.

Bharring wrote:
The analogy was only supposed to be that there is more to a unit than exactly how many points it removes from the table. Sometimes, a unit can win you the game without getting a kill.

I don't think terminators are such a unit, because their durability/pt is also very poor. There are good at soaking AP 3 firepower. That's it. That's too narrow of a job.

Bharring wrote:
The analogy was only supposed to be that there is more to a unit than exactly how many points it removes from the table. Sometimes, a unit can win you the game without getting a kill.

But it's pretty hard for a unit to win you the game when it can't get you a kill, can't endure return fire, and can't move particularly quickly.

Terminators in a Land raider is the best way to use them. And you can argue about the land raider and how terminators are bad but when I did play marines I had a Unit of termies in a LR and I used it as mobile reserve. Whenever a special unit or character overreached support my termies would pounce! Watching a DE player realize that his elite CC unit that doesnt have any AP2 weapons just walked into the killing field for a unit of termies is always amusing. Or when I ambushed an IG artillery park and blew up 3 tanks in a single turn. Totally worth the points cost.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Terminators in a Land raider is the best way to use them. And you can argue about the land raider and how terminators are bad but when I did play marines I had a Unit of termies in a LR and I used it as mobile reserve. Whenever a special unit or character overreached support my termies would pounce! Watching a DE player realize that his elite CC unit that doesnt have any AP2 weapons just walked into the killing field for a unit of termies is always amusing. Or when I ambushed an IG artillery park and blew up 3 tanks in a single turn. Totally worth the points cost.

Your examples required the cooperation of your opponent. Every unit is fantastic if your opponent cooperates with you. Rest assured you will never catch my BA elite CC units if they are not geared for fighting 2+ armor. The only unit likely to offer themselves up is a speed bump unit or the melta team. With the melta team, you probably just lost your ride which means your terminators will be shot to pieces as well. Trading ~135 ish pts for 450 ish is how terminators end up backfiring spectacularly.

Well Martel I tend to use this thing called "Tactics" I make the opponent do what I want him to by maneuvering and subterfuge. When he over extends I pounce. Im sorry you didn't realize that to be effective in a war game you have to use tactics.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Well Martel I tend to use this thing called "Tactics" I make the opponent do what I want him to by maneuvering and subterfuge. When he over extends I pounce. Im sorry you didn't realize that to be effective in a war game you have to use tactics.

Tactics is exactly why you'll never be able to pounce me. I won't overextend, and you have no way to force me to do so.

And any list that contains a LR + terminators will probably be outgunned by my typical list and so you'll have to come to me and waste precious time driving the LR across the battlefield, potentially immobilizing yourself and not being very effective at shooting. You'll likely be the one overextending, because you are facing superior firepower. I get to the be Eldar for once.

what would you pop my land raider with from a distance if i choose to keep him in the back and with a bit of bubble wrap? LC? they only glance on a 5 so you would be hoping for a 5 with a full LC dev squad or Las pred. And the entire time your shooting my LR the rest of my army would not be suffering those shots. You have to use what you have at hand. Like I said I play Orks primarily and I 99% of the time am the one assaulting, but the last game I played I fought against 2 marine players who had a lot of anti infantry and CCW so I went shooty on them with my lootas and battlewagonz in a gun line while my boyz stayed in the back with my bikers to provide counter charges. I won because I fooled one marine player to attack a flank that he thought was weak and then I ambushed his forces with my bikers and my boyz squad that jumped forwards and blew up his Baal pred before it got t fire. On the same turn my Koptas attacked the other marine players rear and popped his heavy armor with TL rokkitz and buzzsaws. You can't beat an opponent who has a customized list that was designed to beat yours when you didn't do likewise but their is a lot of room to squeeze out victories when your opponent tries to do this and fails in a small measure. In this case he didn't think much of my lootas (Dont blame him lootas tend to suck against the things he brought) but he didn't plan on my putting them in the BW instead of the boyz squads he thought were going to be rushing him. In the end an Ork gunline beat two marine players, BA and DA.

If you keep the LR back with bubble wrap, I can ignore it because you just paid a ton of points to do nothing. As I said, it's an ignorable unit in general. Take your potshots at me. The Eldar fire WAVES of high STR at my lists. I care not for you two lascannons for 250 pts.

So you would ignore me the entire game and then the last turn or two I would drive up and seize an objective with the termies inside and you wouldn't be able to get them off in one turn. Or, you ignore me completely and I kill between 1-3 of your vehicles and you realize that my 250pt model just did more then his fair share of dmg and he still is free to move around and do things. The only reason I can think you bash on termies and LR is that you got thrashed by some Eldar trickery and will never forget the absolute butt kicking you received. Everyone who plays acknowledges that Eldar got a bit OP in the last codex/edition. Try the LR and Termies against a non Eldar player and see how it works. I loved mine until i switched to Orks completely.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So you would ignore me the entire game and then the last turn or two I would drive up and seize an objective with the termies inside and you wouldn't be able to get them off in one turn. Or, you ignore me completely and I kill between 1-3 of your vehicles and you realize that my 250pt model just did more then his fair share of dmg and he still is free to move around and do things. The only reason I can think you bash on termies and LR is that you got thrashed by some Eldar trickery and will never forget the absolute butt kicking you received. Everyone who plays acknowledges that Eldar got a bit OP in the last codex/edition. Try the LR and Termies against a non Eldar player and see how it works. I loved mine until i switched to Orks completely.

You won't kill 1-3 vehicles with a land raider. And I'm fine with you paying 450 pts for an objective when the rest of your list is dead.

There's no trickery to Eldar. They are pure brute force.

then whoever your playing against isn't a very good Eldar player. The Eldar are loaded with trickery. Psychic phase OP, skimmer tanks that can out shoot any other vehicle in the game pretty much, Jet bikes that can turbo boost across the board in a single turn and take away your objectives last turn. A unit that can literally appear from reserve each turn and drop a bomb and then run away. Yeah lots of trickery. But depending on the game A single objective for 450pts isnt very cost efficient but you keep making assumptions about my lists, you think you would kill my entire list and be able to ignore 450pts of it and never have consequences. All I can say is I wish you the best of luck in whatever fantasy world you live in that allows you to self hate your army so much and still lose to players who don't know how to utilize their codex very well.

I can assure you my Eldar opponent know how to use their codex. Yes, they CAN employ the things you list, but they often don't have to.

Well this thread has developed a bit....

In regards to the idea of giving terminators more firepower to solve the issue, that will not fix their problem.

If you simply add more options that will not fix terminators, it will imbalance the purpose of other units more directly. I can already see variants of devastator squads having issues finding purpose in serious lists, but if you give terminators the option to fulfill essentially a devastator role, then they are going to have the next major issue.

What separates space marines from guardsman isn't just their stat line, its their armour, of course. With that being said, consider then how a space marine army should play - they should be able to soak damage, generally. Terminator armour is essentially that concept on drugs; its meant to play like a mobile bulwark you cannot ignore.

This role is not happening in 40k. Lists can field butt loads of AP2 and thus making it feel pretty silly for even thinking about any armoured troops on the field. Its a counter intuitive design of mechanics/lore really.

As I see it, the only ways to fix that universal issue is to improve armour saves abroad, or reduce AP2 weaponry in different ways. Maybe even both - with particular wargear.

The band aid I propose is simply to help carry terminators cost efficiency without being too intrusive. Making them cheaper is alternative, but if it were price equivalent to the AP1 idea, I fear it would be too cheap, and thus throw off Elite choices.

Lists can field buttloads of AP2 but this would be pretty stupid if your enemies were mainly Orks or Guard.

The real problem is that so many people play Marines, which requires the opponent to lod up on AP2 weapons.

Alcibiades wrote:
Lists can field buttloads of AP2 but this would be pretty stupid if your enemies were mainly Orks or Guard.

The real problem is that so many people play Marines, which requires the opponent to lod up on AP2 weapons.

How much of a drawback would it really be - loading up on higher AP weapons than template/salvo things vs a horde army? I guess if there was nothing but tarpit fodder then maybe...?

And.... why would AP2 weaponry be bad vs Orks or guard???

kveldulf wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Lists can field buttloads of AP2 but this would be pretty stupid if your enemies were mainly Orks or Guard.

The real problem is that so many people play Marines, which requires the opponent to lod up on AP2 weapons.

How much of a drawback would it really be - loading up on higher AP weapons than template/salvo things vs a horde army? I guess if there was nothing but tarpit fodder then maybe...?

And.... why would AP2 weaponry be bad vs Orks or guard???

cause you're paying premium for an ap 2 weapon whereas it's effectiveness is no much more than of a regular bolter.

 koooaei wrote:

kveldulf wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Lists can field buttloads of AP2 but this would be pretty stupid if your enemies were mainly Orks or Guard.

The real problem is that so many people play Marines, which requires the opponent to lod up on AP2 weapons.

How much of a drawback would it really be - loading up on higher AP weapons than template/salvo things vs a horde army? I guess if there was nothing but tarpit fodder then maybe...?

And.... why would AP2 weaponry be bad vs Orks or guard???

cause you're paying premium for an ap 2 weapon whereas it's effectiveness is no much more than of a regular bolter.

So they are not at all effective vs ork or guard tanks, elite infantry, walkers, speeders, etc ?.... Most AP 2 weapons do have a higher strength too right?

What do you feel when you shoot a lazcannon at an ork boy?

 koooaei wrote:
What do you feel when you shoot a lazcannon at an ork boy?

Is that after the round a tank blows up or before?

kveldulf wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What do you feel when you shoot a lazcannon at an ork boy?

Is that after the round the tank blows up or before?

There are no tanks - just ork boyz.

At this point you wish you wouldn't have spammed lazcannons and took some regular guyz with bolters for a change.

 koooaei wrote:

kveldulf wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What do you feel when you shoot a lazcannon at an ork boy?

Is that after the round the tank blows up or before?

There are no tanks - just ork boyz.

One lascannon vs a group of orks... that sounds pretty one sided. There is no other support infantry or.. support thing around? Also, how far away are they?





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:


At this point you wish you wouldn't have spammed lazcannons and took some regular guyz with bolters for a change.

Nah at this point I will wonder why I have one lonely lascannon without any support on the frontline - sounds like a strategic mistake. Then again, maybe he just blew up a vehicle and has paid for himself.

kveldulf wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

kveldulf wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What do you feel when you shoot a lazcannon at an ork boy?

Is that after the round the tank blows up or before?

There are no tanks - just ork boyz.

One lascannon vs a group of orks... that sounds pretty one sided. There is no other support infantry or.. support thing around? Also, how far away are they?

We've not talking about 1 lazcannon. We're talking about lazcannon spam.

 koooaei wrote:

kveldulf wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What do you feel when you shoot a lazcannon at an ork boy?

Is that after the round the tank blows up or before?

There are no tanks - just ork boyz.

At this point you wish you wouldn't have spammed lazcannons and took some regular guyz with bolters for a change.

You have a point if it weren't for the fact that the weapons people are spamming are Plasma Guns, not Lascannons, and Plasma Guns most certainly murder Ork Boyz more efficiently than Lasguns.