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 koooaei wrote:

kveldulf wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

kveldulf wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What do you feel when you shoot a lazcannon at an ork boy?

Is that after the round the tank blows up or before?

There are no tanks - just ork boyz.

One lascannon vs a group of orks... that sounds pretty one sided. There is no other support infantry or.. support thing around? Also, how far away are they?

We've not talking about 1 lazcannon. We're talking about lazcannon spam.

Well.. even with lascannon spam, you are going to have mandatory troops. Never mind the fact that this also goes out into an extreme - that goes into a realm of absolutist reasoning.....

Its an exception that isn't meant for generalities.

Terminators in particular are generally bad because of the prevalence of high AP weapons.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

kveldulf wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What do you feel when you shoot a lazcannon at an ork boy?

Is that after the round the tank blows up or before?

There are no tanks - just ork boyz.

At this point you wish you wouldn't have spammed lazcannons and took some regular guyz with bolters for a change.

You have a point if it weren't for the fact that the weapons people are spamming are Plasma Guns, not Lascannons, and Plasma Guns most certainly murder Ork Boyz more efficiently than Lasguns.

1 guard with a plasma gun costs 20 pts - shoots 2 times, hits once, wounds 5/6 the time and kills 5/6 of an ork boy before cover.

4 guards with lazguns cost 20 pts - shoot 8 times, hit 4 times, wound 1/3 of the time and kill 8/6 orks with or without cover.

So, lazgun guards kill ~2 times more orks than plazmagun guards and are 4 times more durable themselves due to numbers.


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kveldulf wrote:
Never mind the fact that this also goes out into an extreme - that goes into a realm of absolutist reasoning.....Terminators in particular are generally bad because of the prevalence of high AP weapons.

Isn't it extremes too? That's not me who was claiming we're bathing in ap2.

 koooaei wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

kveldulf wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
What do you feel when you shoot a lazcannon at an ork boy?

Is that after the round the tank blows up or before?

There are no tanks - just ork boyz.

At this point you wish you wouldn't have spammed lazcannons and took some regular guyz with bolters for a change.

You have a point if it weren't for the fact that the weapons people are spamming are Plasma Guns, not Lascannons, and Plasma Guns most certainly murder Ork Boyz more efficiently than Lasguns.

1 guard with a plasma gun costs 20 pts - shoots 2 times, hits once, wounds 5/6 the time and kills 5/6 of an ork boy before cover.

4 guards with lazguns cost 20 pts - shoot 8 times, hit 4 times, wound 1/3 of the time and kill 8/6 orks with or without cover.

So, lazgun guards kill ~2 times more orks than plazmagun guards and are 4 times more durable themselves due to numbers.

And less utility than the squads with plasma guns....


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 koooaei wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

kveldulf wrote:
Never mind the fact that this also goes out into an extreme - that goes into a realm of absolutist reasoning.....Terminators in particular are generally bad because of the prevalence of high AP weapons.

Isn't it extremes too? That's not me who was claiming we're bathing in ap2.

Terminators are an extreme? Or that AP2 weaponry prevalent is the extreme?

In regards to the latter, yes it is ones choice to choose various load-outs, and there are consequences to those (like the min max example you were conveying) but usually, even with a balanced army, there will be enough going AP or better around to mute in particular, terminators.

When one brings an infantry squad, they usually have options that most players will end up doing ( because it gives them utility). So a balanced force (that usually fields the utility spots) has too common of a counter versus terminators. As a matter of fact, I might just argue, high AP weapons in general are too common/ or not expensive enough.

Or too necessary. Which is more likely to completely shaft a player these days in the current meta: having too little AP2 to handle DK/Tide/WK/etc, or having too few boltguns to handle massed orkz?

Too much AP2 is partly that its too easy to get, but also partly selection bias.

Alcibiades wrote:
Lists can field buttloads of AP2 but this would be pretty stupid if your enemies were mainly Orks or Guard.

The real problem is that so many people play Marines, which requires the opponent to lod up on AP2 weapons.

You can kill marines without AP 2. I do it all the time. What you can't kill without AP 2? MCs with 2+ saves.

"In regards to the idea of giving terminators more firepower to solve the issue, that will not fix their problem. "

I think it absolutely will. They will have a game impact before the get gunned down, at least.


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Bharring wrote:
Or too necessary. Which is more likely to completely shaft a player these days in the current meta: having too little AP2 to handle DK/Tide/WK/etc, or having too few boltguns to handle massed orkz?

Too much AP2 is partly that its too easy to get, but also partly selection bias.

I can also punch Orks in the face or use flamer templates. I don't need bolters.

Not all factions can.

Bharring wrote:
Not all factions can.

Not all factions can do what? Punch Orks? Most that can't shoot better than marines, so they don't need to.

Exactly my point.

Bharring wrote:
Exactly my point.

As for your earlier post, don't forget that AP 3 works fine against WKs. It's their biggest weakness. That, and losing their good guns if they want a 5++. The Riptide and DK are the two model that have really doomed terminators in terms of durability.

Here's my question about the Terminator armor, what I don't get is why they have to remain T4? If the rules want to fit the fluff, and be functional at the same time, they don't need to make any sort of weird special rule for Terminator saves. It makes a lot of sense IMO to just raise their toughness to 6 or 7, it really fits the fluff for Terminators being hard to take down and its a functionally simple fix IMO. Death by a thousand cuts is still possible with T6, just now those Bolters are wounding on 6's instead of 4's.

 ultimentra wrote:
Here's my question about the Terminator armor, what I don't get is why they have to remain T4? If the rules want to fit the fluff, and be functional at the same time, they don't need to make any sort of weird special rule for Terminator saves. It makes a lot of sense IMO to just raise their toughness to 6 or 7, it really fits the fluff for Terminators being hard to take down and its a functionally simple fix IMO. Death by a thousand cuts is still possible with T6, just now those Bolters are wounding on 6's instead of 4's.

Because terminators are clearly not as tough as Dreadknights or Riptides. They aren't monsters, they are infantry. Infantry with no job niche anymore. And T6 2+ save is effectively immune to low STR shooting. See DK and Riptides.

Martel732 wrote:

Alcibiades wrote:
Lists can field buttloads of AP2 but this would be pretty stupid if your enemies were mainly Orks or Guard.

The real problem is that so many people play Marines, which requires the opponent to load up on AP2 weapons.

You can kill marines without AP 2. I do it all the time. What you can't kill without AP 2? MCs with 2+ saves.

"In regards to the idea of giving terminators more firepower to solve the issue, that will not fix their problem. "

I think it absolutely will. They will have a game impact before the get gunned down, at least.


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Bharring wrote:
Or too necessary. Which is more likely to completely shaft a player these days in the current meta: having too little AP2 to handle DK/Tide/WK/etc, or having too few boltguns to handle massed orkz?

Too much AP2 is partly that its too easy to get, but also partly selection bias.

I can also punch Orks in the face or use flamer templates. I don't need bolters.

This is why I am saying this -

Keep them the same points but give them:
Two wounds
Ignore unwieldy effect - Let them attack at initiative

Wrist mount bolters to power/chain fist, claws - So if you take a claw and chainfist they become twin-linked. Doesn't abaddon have a jacked-up one of these? So its not like it doesn't exist as a concept.

Make players choose between ranged/melee mix or have mini tank 2+/3++ with hammer/fist and shield

Make them mini-dreadnoughts like they were originally envisioned to be.

I'd also add, that change to T5 moves them into bike/TWC and almost MC territory. I'd also give them eternal warrior, denying insta-death. They'd have their invulnerable save and additional wound to keep them in the fight against high str weapons.

Please by all means spam plasma weapons against my ork lists. After I swamp your units with tons of boyz you will realize you should have saved those points for different weapons.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Please by all means spam plasma weapons against my ork lists. After I swamp your units with tons of boyz you will realize you should have saved those points for different weapons.

Plasma is still the right choice. It's the most TAC of all marine special weapons.

it is definitely a nice weapon, right up until you kill yourself with it

Twice I have played a DA player who brought a terminator with a plasma cannon, twice on the first shot the termy killed himself and I laughed uncontrollably! yeah plasma spam is fine to kill lots of different things but when I bring 120boyz to the table that Plasma gun doesnt do much, especially since if your in range to shoot me with it then I am in range to possibly charge you the next turn or at worst the turn after that.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
it is definitely a nice weapon, right up until you kill yourself with it

Twice I have played a DA player who brought a terminator with a plasma cannon, twice on the first shot the termy killed himself and I laughed uncontrollably! yeah plasma spam is fine to kill lots of different things but when I bring 120boyz to the table that Plasma gun doesnt do much, especially since if your in range to shoot me with it then I am in range to possibly charge you the next turn or at worst the turn after that.

But I have to game against all possible lists, not just Orks. I'll take my chances. Against 120 boyz with BA, I'm completely relying on mobility to save the day.

Not a fan of any weapon that gets hot which limits me in my choices for my orks since all our good weapons get hot :-(

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Not a fan of any weapon that gets hot which limits me in my choices for my orks since all our good weapons get hot :-(

It's not statistically significant for IG or marines.

Plasma on guardsmen, Thudd gun in elite slots, I've had one of those gun kill 20 boys in 2 rounds, I can have 12 in my elite slots, with more than enough points left for other units.

Bharring wrote:
More options in Termie squads could be nice.

If you gave them all ACs for less than 80 ppm, ACs would outnumber SLs by a stupid amount. I mean, wow.

DevCents and grav bikers are a large part of what makes termies 'bad'. Those things are stupid.

The other large part, though, is the meta. If I need to handle t6 2+/5++ 4-5wounds, I need to stack weapons that can handle them. Those weapons are generally the hard counter to Termies. So I will always be well geared for Termie killing. Any reasonable model will have a problem with things specifically designed to kill it. And, with what the meta is now, Termies, like Land Raiders, are too similar to the current cornerstones of the meta. So most lists they go up against are designed to kill them.

Look at the #2 from LVO. Scout spam. Everyone is so geared for killing hard targets and death stars and Knights, MSU with little for hard targets won the day.

So, if you play someone planning for Termies, don't bring Termies. Don't buff them to the point that nothing can counter them.

WE HAVE BEEN OVER THIS...
Just because a unit exists and does a job excellently, doesn't mean that the other unit magically becomes good if they disappear. If neither of the above units existed, it doesn't make Terminators good and all the sudden reasonable. You still wouldn't take them, because the firepower and melee power isn't worth the cost you're paying.

I think the point he was trying to make was that just because I happened to bring a counter to a certain play style that doesn't make that play style bad or under powered. I just had good intel on what to expect and planned accordingly. If I brought a list of CC orks with no AP 2 weapons then termies would be amazing. yeah they would die to my onslaught but you could use them to remove key parts of my army before they eventually succumbed to mass shooting/assaulting. And in the mean time you can use your other units to destroy more of my army. As I have said from the start it is a matter of tactics that makes them useful or useless

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I think the point he was trying to make was that just because I happened to bring a counter to a certain play style that doesn't make that play style bad or under powered. I just had good intel on what to expect and planned accordingly. If I brought a list of CC orks with no AP 2 weapons then termies would be amazing. yeah they would die to my onslaught but you could use them to remove key parts of my army before they eventually succumbed to mass shooting/assaulting. And in the mean time you can use your other units to destroy more of my army. As I have said from the start it is a matter of tactics that makes them useful or useless

You ignore the mathematics, however. I can use tactics with any unit. If tactics are used with more potent units, the results are better than when tactics are used with inferior units like terminators.

" If I brought a list of CC orks with no AP 2 weapons then termies would be amazing."

No, they'd still die miserably after accomplishing nothing if the Ork player plays it right. I don't think there's any tactic you can use that makes these things actually useful in a general sense. That's why I never use them, despite owning about 30. Yeah, you might get lucky once in a while if your opponent slips up, but across many games, I think they are very detrimental.

Martel732 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I think the point he was trying to make was that just because I happened to bring a counter to a certain play style that doesn't make that play style bad or under powered. I just had good intel on what to expect and planned accordingly. If I brought a list of CC orks with no AP 2 weapons then termies would be amazing. yeah they would die to my onslaught but you could use them to remove key parts of my army before they eventually succumbed to mass shooting/assaulting. And in the mean time you can use your other units to destroy more of my army. As I have said from the start it is a matter of tactics that makes them useful or useless

You ignore the mathematics, however. I can use tactics with any unit. If tactics are used with more potent units, the results are better than when tactics are used with inferior units like terminators.

" If I brought a list of CC orks with no AP 2 weapons then termies would be amazing."

No, they'd still die miserably after accomplishing nothing if the Ork player plays it right. I don't think there's any tactic you can use that makes these things actually useful in a general sense. That's why I never use them, despite owning about 30. Yeah, you might get lucky once in a while if your opponent slips up, but across many games, I think they are very detrimental.

Yep the AP2 is just one issue with them. Like you said, even In a game with no AP2+, terminators are indeed a hard unit to be efficient with.

Which is why just making cost less points is the best answer. It fixes all of their problems at once

 CrownAxe wrote:
Which is why just making cost less points is the best answer. It fixes all of their problems at once

I didn't start off in this corner, but I'm leaning that way now. More terminators is more wounds to give and more shots taken.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Which is why just making cost less points is the best answer. It fixes all of their problems at once

I'm not at all opposed to this, but the problem is that for them to be cost efficient, I see them at least needing to be dropped to 25-30 points a model. That would be a hard thing for most people to swallow.

Just as a general comment.
I think the real problem is there are too many units fighting over limited amount of values and roles in the 40k game.
Coupled with a very restricted game play focus,makes getting things to work as they should ,attaining internal and external balance very difficult.

The problem with just tweeking PV is the fact is does not address core issues.And this just tends to move the problems to other areas.

The only way you can make a game of 40k with ALL units being viable options.Is to write rules to cover the scale and scope of the units currently in the game .
This is the only way to get all units to perform in synergy with the background. and achieve a game that is as inspiring as the models and background.IMO.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
I just Fixed Terminators! here it is, I can't believe SM players haven't thought about this before, it is so simple. Ok, here we go, Rule changes....None.

Now when you play with terminators, put them in a Landraider and drive them to where they need to go.. THEN! assault win and reboard your transport keeping in cover as much as possible.

God its so simple how did you guys not think of this before now?


Serious note. People are commenting on how termies die to shooting...well no $hit thats why we shoot at them....so they die. To solve this keep them in a transport until absolutely necessary to get them out. "they die to AP weapons to easily" Again no $hit thats the point of having PK and PF and LC MM and regular Melta weapons. there is no fix for this except that you get a 5+ invul save against them. Is it perfect? no but if you buffed it anymore terminators would be OP and you would have to increase their point cost. You should think of terminators as one shot weapons. Launch them at what you NEED dead and forget about them. If they survive then WOOHOO! bonus. If they die, well they more then likely accomplished their mission before dying to 120 Lasgun shots or whatever else shot at them.

So I should put 1/3 - 1/4 of my army on hold for how many turns for a 500+ point single use that could be blocked by any half dead squad for 1-2 turns just by standing in the way? Youve pretty pretty much ruled out deepstriking and footin it aswell if hiding inside a transport is the only alternative. Why bring a hood ornament to the table when I can spend 500+ points on units that's active every turn instead?

On the turn TDA's Deepstrike, TDA can only be fired upon by overwatch rule, would make them survive that first turn shootout and would prevent assault from getting completely wiped before they even get to swing.

Deepstriking is a broken game mechanic in its own right. placing a bunch of models in concentric circles around a single model and then not letting them move that turn means you have effectively made a big blob that I will enjoy shooting at. Twice i have played a weirdboy and got the deepstrike power, i basically never used it because the idea of 30 boyz in a giant concentric circle around my weirdboy makes me sick. yeah you can run but if you get a bad dice roll then your in trouble.

as to the suggestion I made and your counter argument, yeah its not amazing or OP which is what I feel a lot of people want (and by how OP recent codexs have been i understand). But you put some termies in a land raider and you have a mobile strong point that can fire a decent amount of firepower. Martel hates LRs to and thinks they suck but when you team it up with a terminator squad you have a great delivery system for decapitating HQs and removing heavy support. Everyone keeps saying they get bogged down to garbage units, well im sorry your opponents are so used to playing against marines they have figured out good counters but that doesn't mean you stop, you just need to find a new tactic that allows you to get around this.

I know this has been said befor buth I think the best solution for AP2 spam is changing cover saves. Why would you opt to take a round to your armor over ducking and letting it hight the wall your behind, or, how in the hell-oo does a round penertrate through a wall then magically pen you involnerable/armor save. So cover saves should work something like a pre-FNP; coversave /armor or invulv/ FNP.