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Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Dudeface wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Drager wrote:
I find it really strange that people care so much about which rules are tied to which paint scheme. Playing Ultramarines with Iron Hands rules seems fine to me, the rules are a framework of mathematical bonuses and don't constrain the creativity and fluff of the battle. I find it sad that only those who paint a neutral colour scheme get to play the game for a reasonable amount of money under this paradigm. Personally I don't play marines and all my Eldar are custom painted so it doesn't matter to me as it can't affect me, except in making my games less fun as my opponent is forced to play something other than what they want to or be faced with social approbation. I don't understand why there is any difference using one chapter's rules over another. If the chapter tacitcs were given generic names and you just picked which to use for your dudes no one would complain and it would be mechanically identical, the fact that they called something Ultramarines Chapter Tactic instead of Chapter Tactic 3 makes so much difference to people is bonkers.
You win the prize for best post.


The best post that fits your wants/needs from your POV. I think that anyone else reading this thread will look at the below and consider it the best advice to pass on, as it tackles the perceptions of others looking in on this thread rather than simply internalising the justification for your choice.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:You thought you were an Ultramarines player, but it turns out you're not. You're a Space Marine powergamer. There's nothing wrong with being a Space Marine powergamer, it's just another way to play. You got used to Ultramarines being the top dog of codex marines, and now that they may not be, your actual identity is conflicting with your perceived identity. You can no longer have your cake and eat it too.

If you want to be an Ultramarines player, play Ultramarines. Use the models you like, or build the best Ultramarines list you can, or whatever you have fun with. Sometimes playing the underdog is more fun. To win with a sub-optimal army vs an army with better rules, you have to be a better player, or get lucky. Each individual win is more of an accomplishment.

If you want to be a Space Marine powergamer, pick whatever rules you think are best, and build the most efficient list you can if that's what you have fun with. If you love optimizing and finding all the nifty combos and then seeing your grand plans come to fruition, that's great. Being able to win consistently, even with a higher tier army, takes a skilled player as well.

What you can't do is play a specific subfaction and also always have the best rules. Sometimes you'll be the best subfaction in the codex, sometimes you won't. So you suck it up and play a sub-optimal subfaction that you identify with and have fun. Or you suck it up and play a faction other than the one you identify with to get the best rules and you have fun. Or you mope and complain and don't have fun.

Marines get this the worst because they have the most history of dedicated subfaction rules and the most supplements for those subfactions. There have been decades for people to fall in love with Ultramarines, or Raven Guard, or Salamanders. Chaos Marines get it some too with the Legions. Eldar, Chaos Daemons, and maybe Guard a bit too, but to a lesser extent than even CSM. The other factions? Up until recently, there weren't rules for Hive Fleets, or Septs, or whatever. People haven't had a chance to tie their identity to a subfaction on the tabletop, so they built an army of their dudes. Now that they have options, they don't feel beholden to one choice, since they haven't spent years or decades building an army dedicated to that choice. They don't see the subfactions as an identity.

So go be an Ultramarines player, or be a Space Marine powergamer, or start a new army. Just have fun, and don't worry so much about it.


Sorry no. Some ideas are just better than others. Chapter tactics aren't about fluff. I can play Ultramarines with with every model having a U on it's shoulder using Ironhands rules and it doesn't affect ether players gaming experience of interacting with Ultramarines. They are just bonus rules and you chose the ones you want - most have nothing to do with fluff anyways. The only real issue is special characters which is much more of a problem with marines than any other army (most their builds are centered around them). Saw a post the other day that most seemed to agree with. Special characters should not be trait specific units - lots of people agreed with that. "Power gamer" is also a really pathetic term. This game is 80% list selection - if you are playing the game you are a "power gamer". I wonder if in MTG people get called powergamers for using the best cards? LOL - nonsense. Really the guy that wrote that post agrees with me more than not. He probably wants to play a fluffy army and not get destroyed by power gamers....guess what would help a lot with that? If faction rules weren't so wildly unbalanced.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/26 15:15:39


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:

Sorry no. Some ideas are just better than others. Chapter tactics aren't about fluff. I can play Ultramarines with all my with every model having a U on it's shoulder using Ironhands rules and it doesn't affect ether players gaming experience of interacting with Ultramarines. They are just bonus rules and you chose the ones you want. The only real issue is special characters which also is a much more of a problem with marines than any other army. Saw a post the other day that most seemed to agree with. Special characters should not be trait specific units - lots of people agreed with that. "Power gamer" is also a really pathetic term. This game is 80% list selection - if you are playing the game you are a "power gamer". I wonder if in MTG people get called powergamers for using the best cards? LOL - nonsense. Really the guy that wrote that post agrees with me more than not. He probably wants to play a fluffy army and not get destroyed by power gamers....guess what would help a lot with that? If faction rules weren't so wildly unbalanced.


I really, really enjoy how you're simultaneously arguing that its ok to optimize a list, yet at the same time decrying being called an optimizer.

As to your question, yes if you super-focus a list, or a deck, or a loadout, or whatever the term is in whatever game system you're playing, you're a powergamer. There's nothing at all wrong with that. But dont act like it's not what you're doing.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Sorry no. Some ideas are just better than others. Chapter tactics aren't about fluff. I can play Ultramarines with all my with every model having a U on it's shoulder using Ironhands rules and it doesn't affect ether players gaming experience of interacting with Ultramarines. They are just bonus rules and you chose the ones you want. The only real issue is special characters which also is a much more of a problem with marines than any other army. Saw a post the other day that most seemed to agree with. Special characters should not be trait specific units - lots of people agreed with that. "Power gamer" is also a really pathetic term. This game is 80% list selection - if you are playing the game you are a "power gamer". I wonder if in MTG people get called powergamers for using the best cards? LOL - nonsense. Really the guy that wrote that post agrees with me more than not. He probably wants to play a fluffy army and not get destroyed by power gamers....guess what would help a lot with that? If faction rules weren't so wildly unbalanced.


I really, really enjoy how you're simultaneously arguing that its ok to optimize a list, yet at the same time decrying being called an optimizer.

As to your question, yes if you super-focus a list, or a deck, or a loadout, or whatever the term is in whatever game system you're playing, you're a powergamer. There's nothing at all wrong with that. But dont act like it's not what you're doing.

Power gamer is the natural state and obviously the way magic is played. Casual gamer is the the oddball out. The reality is this is how 40k is too it's just a much more vocal casual community.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/26 15:29:40


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Xenomancers wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Sorry no. Some ideas are just better than others. Chapter tactics aren't about fluff. I can play Ultramarines with all my with every model having a U on it's shoulder using Ironhands rules and it doesn't affect ether players gaming experience of interacting with Ultramarines. They are just bonus rules and you chose the ones you want. The only real issue is special characters which also is a much more of a problem with marines than any other army. Saw a post the other day that most seemed to agree with. Special characters should not be trait specific units - lots of people agreed with that. "Power gamer" is also a really pathetic term. This game is 80% list selection - if you are playing the game you are a "power gamer". I wonder if in MTG people get called powergamers for using the best cards? LOL - nonsense. Really the guy that wrote that post agrees with me more than not. He probably wants to play a fluffy army and not get destroyed by power gamers....guess what would help a lot with that? If faction rules weren't so wildly unbalanced.


I really, really enjoy how you're simultaneously arguing that its ok to optimize a list, yet at the same time decrying being called an optimizer.

As to your question, yes if you super-focus a list, or a deck, or a loadout, or whatever the term is in whatever game system you're playing, you're a powergamer. There's nothing at all wrong with that. But dont act like it's not what you're doing.

Power gamer is the natural state and obviously the way magic is played. Casual gamer is the the oddball out.


Then play magic?

Also citation needed on the ammount of casuals vs power gamers.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:

Power gamer is the natural state and obviously the way magic is played. Casual gamer is the the oddball out.


So you've moved from telling people how to play 40k, to telling people how to play MTG. Well done.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Power gamer is the natural state and obviously the way magic is played. Casual gamer is the the oddball out.


So you've moved from telling people how to play 40k, to telling people how to play MTG. Well done.

I'm not really telling you how to play 40k. I'm saying how I am going to play 40k and that there is nothing wrong it. The MTG example is just to show you how insane 40k players are when it comes to subfactions...like seriously...do you truly expect your opponents to use worse rules in any game because it suits your fancy? Like dude...can you just play with weaker cards...Can you not play Zed in LOL because I can't beat him? Can you not play the best heros in battlefront 2? People will just laugh at you and rightfully so.

I'm gonna get ironfather and paint him blue and red. We don't even have a legit tech marine model anyways.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/26 15:37:20


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:

I'm not really telling you how to play 40k. I'm saying how I am going to play 40k and that there is nothing wrong it.


You mean besides the dozen or so pages you've spent telling folks who play in a different fashion that they're playing 40k wrong? Yeah lets just pretend those didnt happen.

 Xenomancers wrote:

The MTG example is just to show you how insane 40k players are when it comes to subfactions...like seriously...do you truly expect your opponents to use worse rules in any game because it suits your fancy?


I expect my match partners (and myself) to function within the boundaries that we mutually set pre-game, nothing more, nothing less. It's not a complicated concept.

   
Made in gb
Frenzied Berserker Terminator




 Xenomancers wrote:
Spoiler:
Dudeface wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Drager wrote:
I find it really strange that people care so much about which rules are tied to which paint scheme. Playing Ultramarines with Iron Hands rules seems fine to me, the rules are a framework of mathematical bonuses and don't constrain the creativity and fluff of the battle. I find it sad that only those who paint a neutral colour scheme get to play the game for a reasonable amount of money under this paradigm. Personally I don't play marines and all my Eldar are custom painted so it doesn't matter to me as it can't affect me, except in making my games less fun as my opponent is forced to play something other than what they want to or be faced with social approbation. I don't understand why there is any difference using one chapter's rules over another. If the chapter tacitcs were given generic names and you just picked which to use for your dudes no one would complain and it would be mechanically identical, the fact that they called something Ultramarines Chapter Tactic instead of Chapter Tactic 3 makes so much difference to people is bonkers.
You win the prize for best post.


The best post that fits your wants/needs from your POV. I think that anyone else reading this thread will look at the below and consider it the best advice to pass on, as it tackles the perceptions of others looking in on this thread rather than simply internalising the justification for your choice.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:You thought you were an Ultramarines player, but it turns out you're not. You're a Space Marine powergamer. There's nothing wrong with being a Space Marine powergamer, it's just another way to play. You got used to Ultramarines being the top dog of codex marines, and now that they may not be, your actual identity is conflicting with your perceived identity. You can no longer have your cake and eat it too.

If you want to be an Ultramarines player, play Ultramarines. Use the models you like, or build the best Ultramarines list you can, or whatever you have fun with. Sometimes playing the underdog is more fun. To win with a sub-optimal army vs an army with better rules, you have to be a better player, or get lucky. Each individual win is more of an accomplishment.

If you want to be a Space Marine powergamer, pick whatever rules you think are best, and build the most efficient list you can if that's what you have fun with. If you love optimizing and finding all the nifty combos and then seeing your grand plans come to fruition, that's great. Being able to win consistently, even with a higher tier army, takes a skilled player as well.

What you can't do is play a specific subfaction and also always have the best rules. Sometimes you'll be the best subfaction in the codex, sometimes you won't. So you suck it up and play a sub-optimal subfaction that you identify with and have fun. Or you suck it up and play a faction other than the one you identify with to get the best rules and you have fun. Or you mope and complain and don't have fun.

Marines get this the worst because they have the most history of dedicated subfaction rules and the most supplements for those subfactions. There have been decades for people to fall in love with Ultramarines, or Raven Guard, or Salamanders. Chaos Marines get it some too with the Legions. Eldar, Chaos Daemons, and maybe Guard a bit too, but to a lesser extent than even CSM. The other factions? Up until recently, there weren't rules for Hive Fleets, or Septs, or whatever. People haven't had a chance to tie their identity to a subfaction on the tabletop, so they built an army of their dudes. Now that they have options, they don't feel beholden to one choice, since they haven't spent years or decades building an army dedicated to that choice. They don't see the subfactions as an identity.

So go be an Ultramarines player, or be a Space Marine powergamer, or start a new army. Just have fun, and don't worry so much about it.


Sorry no. Some ideas are just better than others. Chapter tactics aren't about fluff. I can play Ultramarines with with every model having a U on it's shoulder using Ironhands rules and it doesn't affect ether players gaming experience of interacting with Ultramarines. They are just bonus rules and you chose the ones you want - most have nothing to do with fluff anyways. The only real issue is special characters which is much more of a problem with marines than any other army (most their builds are centered around them). Saw a post the other day that most seemed to agree with. Special characters should not be trait specific units - lots of people agreed with that. "Power gamer" is also a really pathetic term. This game is 80% list selection - if you are playing the game you are a "power gamer". I wonder if in MTG people get called powergamers for using the best cards? LOL - nonsense. Really the guy that wrote that post agrees with me more than not. He probably wants to play a fluffy army and not get destroyed by power gamers....guess what would help a lot with that? If faction rules weren't so wildly unbalanced.


Yes they are power gamers in magic. Let's place the hyperbole aside a minute.

Address the title of the thread: "will I feel bad using blue iron hands" - you knew the answer before you made the thread. You won't have a single doubt about it at all. Taking that into context this thread is intended to what? I assume fish for some validation to wave at people.

If we follow that train of thought, you need validation because you know it's not a popular idea or at the least its contentious. It is in this state because it entails a negative social connotation for a large bulk of the playerbase, because for them it's what would be defined as power gaming. They define it this way as you're making a self entitled choice that flies in the face of the narrative of the game.

It makes no difference game wise, nobody will tell you otherwise. You can and obviously will use the rules you want and call them blue iron hands. What it does do, is show that you value the rules more than your narrative or setting, which means you come across as someone who will sell out for easier wins. That's not a problem with sub factions rules, that's an issue with how your conduct impacts your social persona.

So will you feel bad? Nope, should you feel bad? That is based on how your opponent feels and how you view yourself.
   
Made in us
Poisonous Tomb Scorpion





So fun story, the local story group of marine players, all of them switched to Iron Hands, and now they're all arguing about switching to salamanders.

Is it any wonder why I've left the game? No one can just play, they all want to win every game by using the new hotness.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Xenomancers wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Drager wrote:
I find it really strange that people care so much about which rules are tied to which paint scheme. Playing Ultramarines with Iron Hands rules seems fine to me, the rules are a framework of mathematical bonuses and don't constrain the creativity and fluff of the battle. I find it sad that only those who paint a neutral colour scheme get to play the game for a reasonable amount of money under this paradigm. Personally I don't play marines and all my Eldar are custom painted so it doesn't matter to me as it can't affect me, except in making my games less fun as my opponent is forced to play something other than what they want to or be faced with social approbation. I don't understand why there is any difference using one chapter's rules over another. If the chapter tacitcs were given generic names and you just picked which to use for your dudes no one would complain and it would be mechanically identical, the fact that they called something Ultramarines Chapter Tactic instead of Chapter Tactic 3 makes so much difference to people is bonkers.
You win the prize for best post.


The best post that fits your wants/needs from your POV. I think that anyone else reading this thread will look at the below and consider it the best advice to pass on, as it tackles the perceptions of others looking in on this thread rather than simply internalising the justification for your choice.

Medicinal Carrots wrote:You thought you were an Ultramarines player, but it turns out you're not. You're a Space Marine powergamer. There's nothing wrong with being a Space Marine powergamer, it's just another way to play. You got used to Ultramarines being the top dog of codex marines, and now that they may not be, your actual identity is conflicting with your perceived identity. You can no longer have your cake and eat it too.

If you want to be an Ultramarines player, play Ultramarines. Use the models you like, or build the best Ultramarines list you can, or whatever you have fun with. Sometimes playing the underdog is more fun. To win with a sub-optimal army vs an army with better rules, you have to be a better player, or get lucky. Each individual win is more of an accomplishment.

If you want to be a Space Marine powergamer, pick whatever rules you think are best, and build the most efficient list you can if that's what you have fun with. If you love optimizing and finding all the nifty combos and then seeing your grand plans come to fruition, that's great. Being able to win consistently, even with a higher tier army, takes a skilled player as well.

What you can't do is play a specific subfaction and also always have the best rules. Sometimes you'll be the best subfaction in the codex, sometimes you won't. So you suck it up and play a sub-optimal subfaction that you identify with and have fun. Or you suck it up and play a faction other than the one you identify with to get the best rules and you have fun. Or you mope and complain and don't have fun.

Marines get this the worst because they have the most history of dedicated subfaction rules and the most supplements for those subfactions. There have been decades for people to fall in love with Ultramarines, or Raven Guard, or Salamanders. Chaos Marines get it some too with the Legions. Eldar, Chaos Daemons, and maybe Guard a bit too, but to a lesser extent than even CSM. The other factions? Up until recently, there weren't rules for Hive Fleets, or Septs, or whatever. People haven't had a chance to tie their identity to a subfaction on the tabletop, so they built an army of their dudes. Now that they have options, they don't feel beholden to one choice, since they haven't spent years or decades building an army dedicated to that choice. They don't see the subfactions as an identity.

So go be an Ultramarines player, or be a Space Marine powergamer, or start a new army. Just have fun, and don't worry so much about it.


Sorry no. Some ideas are just better than others.

So your facts can't be wrong because they're your opinions, and everyone is entitled to their opinions. But his opinion is wrong because it's inferior to your opinion?

Chapter tactics aren't about fluff.

Then what are they about? It could be argued that they don't map well to fluff, or their crunch is wonky, but they're clearly intended to be fluff-based.

I can play Ultramarines with with every model having a U on it's shoulder using Ironhands rules and it doesn't affect ether players gaming experience of interacting with Ultramarines.

In the same way you can play half-assembled grey horde as FOTM-chapter, and it "doesn't affect ether [sic] players [sic] gaming experience", just to a lesser extent. It's like saying "This MaulerFiend model is actually a Demon Prince", but on a much smaller scale. It *does* affect the other player. Probably not much. Probably not enough to worry about. Most won't care much, if at all. But pretending it doesn't is just being dismissive of others.

They are just bonus rules and you chose the ones you want - most have nothing to do with fluff anyways.

So there's no fluff justification for Iron Hands being more about cybernetics, or UltraMarines being more about the Codex? That's a rather unique headcanon you go there. (And, if it were a real Iron Hands army, you might have a massive Head Cannon to match!)


The only real issue is special characters which is much more of a problem with marines than any other army (most their builds are centered around them).

Said no Alaitoc Foot-Farseer ever. Or AdMech with Cawl. Or Maggy. Or Morty. Or...

Saw a post the other day that most seemed to agree with. Special characters should not be trait specific units - lots of people agreed with that.

There are a lot of characters that really shouldn't be. But Bobby G leading Iron Hands or Magnus leading an otherwise-pure-Khorne list certainly doesn't make sense.

"Power gamer" is also a really pathetic term. This game is 80% list selection - if you are playing the game you are a "power gamer".

80% of your game may be list selection. But that's certainly not everyone.
First, for many people 80% of the game isn't even the game. Many people spend 80%+ of their time building, modeling, discussing fluff, or doing other such stuff. Many people throw together the units they want to play, call it good, then play a game.

Second, you could argue that 80% tournament play is list building of the game, but (1) tournament play is a subset of this game, and (2) top-table lists are often nearly identical to many lists that place bottom-half in the same event. This could be caused by the game being quite random, but there's far too much stability in *player* placement to account for that. If 80% of tourny play were list building, list placement would be very stable - and it's not.

"power gamer" is just as valid a term as "casual player". They're labels for player types that are not always the ideal opponent. A "power gamer" is a more fun opponent for other "power gamers" than "casual players", and vice-versa. That said, it's often used as a euphemism for "TFG" (just like "casual player" or many other terms). TFG is a whole other story, obviously.

If I'm playing my "Here's all the Harlies I own list", and I'm just mucking it up in a 3-way game with some Orkz and Guardsmen, I'm very likely playing a game and not being a "power gamer".

Once again, you're confusing your interests and habits with universal rules for everyone.

I wonder if in MTG people get called powergamers for using the best cards? LOL - nonsense.

When we played MTG before school (late 90s), we had a fairly stable meta of players. A couple won most of their games. They stopped using their best decks when playing other players. Everyone had more fun as a result. So there's an example - yes, it happens in MTG as well. Or the "No rush" agreement some players had in StarCraft back in the day. Or when our pitcher in Little League wasn't allowed to pitch anymore after we beat every team undefeated. Or the old no-AWP or no-Camping server rules in CounterStrike. This isn't unique to Warhammer at all. It's just more prevalent, because 40k is so much less clean, competitive challenge. It's closer to D&D than most head-to-head games.

Really the guy that wrote that post agrees with me more than not. He probably wants to play a fluffy army and not get destroyed by power gamers....guess what would help a lot with that? If faction rules weren't so wildly unbalanced.

Agreeing that better balance would be good is a long way from agreeing that anyone who wants to see UM played as UM is an evil non-person who doesn't understand the holy truth of your word.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:

Sorry no. Some ideas are just better than others. Chapter tactics aren't about fluff. I can play Ultramarines with all my with every model having a U on it's shoulder using Ironhands rules and it doesn't affect ether players gaming experience of interacting with Ultramarines. They are just bonus rules and you chose the ones you want. The only real issue is special characters which also is a much more of a problem with marines than any other army. Saw a post the other day that most seemed to agree with. Special characters should not be trait specific units - lots of people agreed with that. "Power gamer" is also a really pathetic term. This game is 80% list selection - if you are playing the game you are a "power gamer". I wonder if in MTG people get called powergamers for using the best cards? LOL - nonsense. Really the guy that wrote that post agrees with me more than not. He probably wants to play a fluffy army and not get destroyed by power gamers....guess what would help a lot with that? If faction rules weren't so wildly unbalanced.


I really, really enjoy how you're simultaneously arguing that its ok to optimize a list, yet at the same time decrying being called an optimizer.

As to your question, yes if you super-focus a list, or a deck, or a loadout, or whatever the term is in whatever game system you're playing, you're a powergamer. There's nothing at all wrong with that. But dont act like it's not what you're doing.

Power gamer is the natural state and obviously the way magic is played.

Nobody's argued that

Casual gamer is the the oddball out.

Less common in a public forum. A lot more common than you'd realize in a stable meta. Have you never heard of banlists?

The reality is this is how 40k is too

Citation needed.

it's just a much more vocal casual community.

That's because the casual community is a lot bigger. There's a lot more people who care about whether Bobby G is an UltraMarine than care who came in first in the last GT.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/26 16:14:03


 
   
Made in us
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought




Lemondish wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Spoletta wrote:

It looks like you met the infamous IH parking lot.

There are many ways to beat it, but trying to force your way through strenght is not one. Kill everything outside the parking lot and just score the objectives turn by turn. By turn 3-4 you will be tabled, but your lead on points will be enough to win the game regardless.

To digress a bit, this is the problem with the ITC tournament ruleset - You can't play for objectives if you're going to be tabled on turn 4.
The Iron Hands player is still going to get a bunch of points, (Kill 1 unit, Kill More, Hold 1 objective, plus most of his secondaries if he sets it up right) and the massive bonus he gets for every turn remaining after he tables will make it unwinable for the non-IH player.
And, since ITC seems to be the standard at most tournaments... It causes problems when the best strategy to beat certain armies only works in traditional GW games.


That's because ITC is trash.

I don't totally agree, but ITC being used as the gold standard in US tournaments is definitely trash.
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Togusa wrote:
So fun story, the local story group of marine players, all of them switched to Iron Hands, and now they're all arguing about switching to salamanders.

Is it any wonder why I've left the game? No one can just play, they all want to win every game by using the new hotness.


Wellp your locals must be fun guys to be around.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Not Online!!! wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
So fun story, the local story group of marine players, all of them switched to Iron Hands, and now they're all arguing about switching to salamanders.

Is it any wonder why I've left the game? No one can just play, they all want to win every game by using the new hotness.


Wellp your locals must be fun guys to be around.

Some people just want to play whats new. Nothing wrong with that ether. Ironhands are miles ahead of salamanders...let them play it. LOL.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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 Xenomancers wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
So fun story, the local story group of marine players, all of them switched to Iron Hands, and now they're all arguing about switching to salamanders.

Is it any wonder why I've left the game? No one can just play, they all want to win every game by using the new hotness.


Wellp your locals must be fun guys to be around.

Some people just want to play whats new. Nothing wrong with that ether. Ironhands are miles ahead of salamanders...let them play it. LOL.


Again theres a difference between testing and proxxxying, trying to escape gw incompetence (WB f.e EG.) and just beeing a want it all.

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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator




I honestly think the thread needs to be left to die off now, or be locked, the debate is exhausted.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Not Online!!! wrote:
 Togusa wrote:
So fun story, the local story group of marine players, all of them switched to Iron Hands, and now they're all arguing about switching to salamanders.

Is it any wonder why I've left the game? No one can just play, they all want to win every game by using the new hotness.


Wellp your locals must be fun guys to be around.

Well they'd be choosing a far worse army. What's the problem again?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in jp
Regular Dakkanaut





If the colour you paint your models doesnt matter (and it shouldnt for the most part), then WYSIWYG should also not really matter. And they types of models i.e. non GW, you use should not matter either.

If lists are being points costed correctly and players are not using incorrect equipment then it shouldnt really matter in the end (but it kinda does).

I think its a slippery slope to go down.


   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Smirrors wrote:
If the colour you paint your models doesnt matter (and it shouldnt for the most part), then WYSIWYG should also not really matter. And they types of models i.e. non GW, you use should not matter either.

If lists are being points costed correctly and players are not using incorrect equipment then it shouldnt really matter in the end (but it kinda does).

I think its a slippery slope to go down.


The difference is the rules do tell you what models to use. The rules don't tell you what colour you have to paint your models. The rules don't enforce WYSIWYG. It's not a slippery slope because the two issues are not connected in the slightest.

This is, of course, just my opinion.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/27 01:32:03


 
   
Made in us
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 Smirrors wrote:
If the colour you paint your models doesnt matter (and it shouldnt for the most part), then WYSIWYG should also not really matter. And they types of models i.e. non GW, you use should not matter either.

If lists are being points costed correctly and players are not using incorrect equipment then it shouldnt really matter in the end (but it kinda does).

I think its a slippery slope to go down.



I agree with this in principle. However, I think it is fine to have some stuff in ones army that isn't exactly what it is supposed to be as long as the other player(s) know what it is supposed to be. I definitely agree that playing Iron Hands painted as Ultramarines is within the definition of not WYSIWYG. At the same time, it would be one of the easiest things for me as the opponent to remember, so I don't really see it as an issue from a game playing perspective. And since I don't require WYSIWYG as a condition to play me in anyway, it doesn't bother me too much based on that princple.

Much like I would prefer a player to have painted and completely built models, I would like if they were played as the faction they are painted. The illusion that this is battle happening in the 40k universe is much stronger when that is done. Not doing so feels like it cheapens the hobby to me. And since I don't see the game as all that great, I don't really understand why someone would sacrifice spectacle at the alter of game play in Warhammer 40k. Since spectacle (and a large player base) is really all the game has going for it.
   
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Under the couch

 Smirrors wrote:
If the colour you paint your models doesnt matter (and it shouldnt for the most part), then WYSIWYG should also not really matter. And they types of models i.e. non GW, you use should not matter either.

For many gaming groups, WYSIWYG and/or the specific models being used don't matter. So I'm not sure what 'slippery slope' you're seeing here. Where the line on appropriate model representation is drawn is different for different players.


Although it's worth pointing out that those things are not all equal. WYSIWYG is considered important by a lot of players because it makes the game considerably less confusing to play. Colour scheme? Not so much - you point out at the start of the game that your blue marines are using Blood Angels rules, and you get on with the game. It's only potentially confusing if you're mixing rules from different books on models painted and modeled identically - which was also the problem with previous edition formations.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/27 02:24:13


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





It's a sad life to lead, imo of course, to need to constantly get the next hot thing. I get some folk will do so, regardless of it makes sense or even really helps them in the end.

Do I expect someone to lose every game ? No, but I sometimes do I won't say expect, I'll say hope or dream, that someone I play against may actually play the army he likes and not just the one he thinks will always win. When did we get so lazy we can't even expend some extra effort to win with our not new army ?

I mean, if we all just chased what we thought would be the strongest, we'd all be playing one of a couple lists and armies and wouldn't that be amazingly boring.

I honestly don't know why the OP even made the thread other than to say " I'm going to do this, make me not, you won't. " Makes me hope each new marine release is stronger and stronger so those IH become all the other armies in the marine arsenal. At least I can enjoy the sweet suffering of all those rolling their ankles in so quickly switching bandwagons over and over again.

I mean reading the tale of all the marine players switching to IH and then fighting over being salamanders, that sounds just so damn sad for many reasons.
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Im considering playing my BA as Ravenguard. My BA feels very much like I pay 15cp turn 1 and hope I kill enough to win right there or I lose in 50% of my matchups. I can do that the same with the RG rules but at a lower cost and use the rest of my points/army to play more like a normal game.

I mostly lose out on having Sanguinary guard and a libby dread but that is fine. I get cheaper and better units, doctrines and cheaper and reworded stratagems.

If they just gave BA the new stratagems and recosted the BA specific ones, the standard doctrines and the same pointcosts everyone else got I wouldnt consider RG. These are things that only need a few lines in a FAQ to fix until BA gets a real supplement/codex. Until then they are just strictly worse than normal marines since they have most of the same movement shenanigans as BA now plus everything else.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/27 10:16:26


 
   
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 Crimson wrote:
Breton wrote:

I know we're having hagfish soup for lunch today, and you wanted tomato. Just pretend your hagfish mucus is tomato.

There are people who made the successor chapter because they didn't want to make the primogenitor chapter, they were told just use the named character and fluff it out yourself because each chapter has one of these archetype characters. Now they don't. But those players are still sitting on the successor chapter they wanted, and now they're being told just eat the snot and call it tomato.


That is a silly complaint, especially in this specific instance. Nothing changed. Previously they had the exact same rules than Dark Angels, and could use the same characters and only were painted differently. All of this is still true, you only need to write 'Dark Angels' keyword in your armylist.

Now, I really think that successors should have better support and there should be generic chapter masters they could take and equip like they wanted, but that wasn't the case previously either.



Yes it's silly to complain that after years of being told you can have your Angels of Absolution, and here's how you do it, now you're told you can't have your Angels of Absolution anymore, because you can't have these characters or a generic replacement for them so even though you don't want to be Dark Angels, because you want to be something less common, you're... Dark Angels.

Just because it doesn't matter to you, doesn't mean it doesn't matter to someone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Smirrors wrote:
If the colour you paint your models doesnt matter (and it shouldnt for the most part), then WYSIWYG should also not really matter. And they types of models i.e. non GW, you use should not matter either.

If lists are being points costed correctly and players are not using incorrect equipment then it shouldnt really matter in the end (but it kinda does).

I think its a slippery slope to go down.




WYSIWYG flew out the window when they had an edition where space marines didn't by default have grenades, at the same time grenade bits were a modelling option and not built onto the marine body. Nobody was paying for them, and so they weren't spending a lot of time gluing and painting them. Then they became default equipment along with a bolt pistol and/or a CCW which also aren't usually WYSIWYG.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/27 10:57:02


My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Breton wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
Breton wrote:

I know we're having hagfish soup for lunch today, and you wanted tomato. Just pretend your hagfish mucus is tomato.

There are people who made the successor chapter because they didn't want to make the primogenitor chapter, they were told just use the named character and fluff it out yourself because each chapter has one of these archetype characters. Now they don't. But those players are still sitting on the successor chapter they wanted, and now they're being told just eat the snot and call it tomato.

That is a silly complaint, especially in this specific instance. Nothing changed. Previously they had the exact same rules than Dark Angels, and could use the same characters and only were painted differently. All of this is still true, you only need to write 'Dark Angels' keyword in your armylist.

Now, I really think that successors should have better support and there should be generic chapter masters they could take and equip like they wanted, but that wasn't the case previously either.


Yes it's silly to complain that after years of being told you can have your Angels of Absolution, and here's how you do it, now you're told you can't have your Angels of Absolution anymore, because you can't have these characters or a generic replacement for them so even though you don't want to be Dark Angels, because you want to be something less common, you're... Dark Angels.

Just because it doesn't matter to you, doesn't mean it doesn't matter to someone else.

Nothing of significance has changed. Angels of Absolution have never had dedicated rules.


WYSIWYG flew out the window when they had an edition where space marines didn't by default have grenades, at the same time grenade bits were a modelling option and not built onto the marine body. Nobody was paying for them, and so they weren't spending a lot of time gluing and painting them. Then they became default equipment along with a bolt pistol and/or a CCW which also aren't usually WYSIWYG.

I always have pistols and grenades on my marines.

I am personally super strict about WYSIWYG, and I'd really prefer if my opponents adhered to it at least regarding bigger pieces of equipment. I also really prefer my opponent to have a painted army. However, I really do not care how it is painted. Some people have chosen their faction long before any subfaction rules existed, and the said rules change with every codex anyway. It just is not fair to force people to play in a playstyle they might not enjoy or to use substandard rules just because they couldn't magically know what those rules would be when they chose their colour scheme years ago. And often these rules do a poor job reflecting the fluff anyway. Catachans is one of the best regiments for tank heavy armies and if you want a mobile marine chapter both Ultramarines and Iron Hands do it better than White Scars.



Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 Crimson wrote:
I am personally super strict about WYSIWYG, and I'd really prefer if my opponents adhered to it at least regarding bigger pieces of equipment. I also really prefer my opponent to have a painted army. However, I really do not care how it is painted. Some people have chosen their faction long before any subfaction rules existed, and the said rules change with every codex anyway. It just is not fair to force people to play in a playstyle they might not enjoy or to use substandard rules just because they couldn't magically know what those rules would be when they chose their colour scheme years ago. And often these rules do a poor job reflecting the fluff anyway. Catachans is one of the best regiments for tank heavy armies and if you want a mobile marine chapter both Ultramarines and Iron Hands do it better than White Scars.


This.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Dudeface wrote:
I honestly think the thread needs to be left to die off now, or be locked, the debate is exhausted.
Ironhands player detected.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Smirrors wrote:
If the colour you paint your models doesnt matter (and it shouldnt for the most part), then WYSIWYG should also not really matter. And they types of models i.e. non GW, you use should not matter either.

If lists are being points costed correctly and players are not using incorrect equipment then it shouldnt really matter in the end (but it kinda does).

I think its a slippery slope to go down.





alright, tell me what the color scheme of the Lucius Forgeworld for admech is like without googling it. Chances are, you didnt know unless you're an admech player.

Now, tell me which gun is a plasma gun and which gun is a grav cannon in my kataphron squad. Chances are , you knew which were which.

Thats the difference between color scheme and WYSIWYG.

Then again, WYSIWYG becomes less obvious for more obscure armies (non imperium basically). Can you tell what the difference is between a splinter pistol and a stinger pistol? or between a splinter cannon and a dark lance. Or between any tyranids gun.

WYSIWYG is only important so that you can easily keep track of what each model in your army is equipped with. For example, since plasma calivers are a pain to find, i often run my arc rifle as one, i just tell my opponent "all non-radium carbine holders have plasma" or something like that. Rubberbands are also a possibility.

"Forcing" people to only play whatever chapter/forgeworld/sept/dynasty because of the color they picked isnt a thing i want to see applied to the game. If a noob paints his marines as Ultras because thats what marketed all over but later on figures out that white scars are closer to how he wants to play, telling him that he can`t unless he repaints them would make you TFG.


Admech Lucius
Drukhari
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Thousand sons
Tzeentch Demons
Slaanesh Demons
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine



Ottawa

I think this thread will speed up again once the Imperial Fist rules are out.
   
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Illinois

Lemondish wrote:
I think this thread will speed up again once the Imperial Fist rules are out.

Probably, if the rumors are true the IF also have a devastator super doctrine.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




What if GW spreads rumors that they are OP, people start stacking up on red/orange and yellow paints. GW hypes stuff even more, promising pwng of untold proportions. People start killing each other to get the pre orders of the books, and then GW shows the actual doctrin and it lets units re-roll 1s as long as the target unit is inside a fortification.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
 
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