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Guys, will I feel bad using Chaos space marines as the most OP marine sub faction ?

That's why Alpha Legion is the best faction to play.

Has been amongst the best Chaos Traits for the entire edition and has a lore friendly excuse to switch sides when GW breaks the Astartes balance in the game.

You know what, you're not wrong.

 Eldarain wrote:
That's why Alpha Legion is the best faction to play.

Has been amongst the best Chaos Traits for the entire edition and has a lore friendly excuse to switch sides when GW breaks the Astartes balance in the game.

Hydra dominatus.

Always.

So, for all you bandwagon jumpers out there. You're welcome, just play Alpha legion, then no matter who is the best, guess what ? You're the best now ! Easy, and fluffy.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
So, for all you bandwagon jumpers out there. You're welcome, just play Alpha legion, then no matter who is the best, guess what ? You're the best now ! Easy, and fluffy.

Still a stupid situation.

I wonder what happens if someone is colour blind, like my uncle, and accidently paints his models all red instead of blue.

Simple they go faster

Karol wrote:
I wonder what happens if someone is colour blind, like my uncle, and accidently paints his models all red instead of blue.

Just having Blue Space Marines doesn't make you an Ultramarine, any more than Black Space Marines makes you Raven Guard/Iron Hands. Just the block colour scheme isn't enough to say "look, they're clearly XYZ Chapter!" - it's the iconography that would do that for me.

You've got a blue Space Marine? That's a blue Space Marine. Got a Space Marine with the white Ultima symbol? That's a Space Marine with the ultima symbol. You've got a blue Space Marine with a white Ultima symbol? That's an Ultramarine. Colour blindness doesn't stop you from putting down an existing Chapter badge.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Karol wrote:
I wonder what happens if someone is colour blind, like my uncle, and accidently paints his models all red instead of blue.

Just having Blue Space Marines doesn't make you an Ultramarine, any more than Black Space Marines makes you Raven Guard/Iron Hands. Just the block colour scheme isn't enough to say "look, they're clearly XYZ Chapter!" - it's the iconography that would do that for me.

You've got a blue Space Marine? That's a blue Space Marine. Got a Space Marine with the white Ultima symbol? That's a Space Marine with the ultima symbol. You've got a blue Space Marine with a white Ultima symbol? That's an Ultramarine. Colour blindness doesn't stop you from putting down an existing Chapter badge.

Except my dudes aren't Ultramarines, they are The Marines Ultra, a chapter that got lost in the bureaucracy of the Imperium and were missing in the warp for 8,000 years, who coincidentally have a similar looking Heraldry.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Karol wrote:
I wonder what happens if someone is colour blind, like my uncle, and accidently paints his models all red instead of blue.

Just having Blue Space Marines doesn't make you an Ultramarine, any more than Black Space Marines makes you Raven Guard/Iron Hands. Just the block colour scheme isn't enough to say "look, they're clearly XYZ Chapter!" - it's the iconography that would do that for me.

You've got a blue Space Marine? That's a blue Space Marine. Got a Space Marine with the white Ultima symbol? That's a Space Marine with the ultima symbol. You've got a blue Space Marine with a white Ultima symbol? That's an Ultramarine. Colour blindness doesn't stop you from putting down an existing Chapter badge.

Except my dudes aren't Ultramarines, they are The Marines Ultra, a chapter that got lost in the bureaucracy of the Imperium and were missing in the warp for 8,000 years, who coincidentally have a similar looking Heraldry.

They might not be Ultramarines, but they certainly look like them, which is my point. If they're using the same iconography as Ultramarines (say, having a Greco-Roman design and literally having the words 'Ultramarines' on their banners), there's a bit of a difference.

Just blue and ultima symbol, sure, you *could* weasel a different version out. But if I'm seeing something that outright refers to Ultramarines specifically, then I'm sorry, those are models painted as Ultramarines. I still can't force you into playing them actually as Ultramarines if you insist otherwise, but I'm also not going to be overly fond on playing someone with an obvious Chapter who's jumping between the flavours of the month, because that's not an attitude of play which I like to have anything to do with personally. You're welcome to do it, I won't say you're wrong, but I will say I don't want any part in it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Karol wrote:
I wonder what happens if someone is colour blind, like my uncle, and accidently paints his models all red instead of blue.

Just having Blue Space Marines doesn't make you an Ultramarine, any more than Black Space Marines makes you Raven Guard/Iron Hands. Just the block colour scheme isn't enough to say "look, they're clearly XYZ Chapter!" - it's the iconography that would do that for me.

You've got a blue Space Marine? That's a blue Space Marine. Got a Space Marine with the white Ultima symbol? That's a Space Marine with the ultima symbol. You've got a blue Space Marine with a white Ultima symbol? That's an Ultramarine. Colour blindness doesn't stop you from putting down an existing Chapter badge.

Except my dudes aren't Ultramarines, they are The Marines Ultra, a chapter that got lost in the bureaucracy of the Imperium and were missing in the warp for 8,000 years, who coincidentally have a similar looking Heraldry.

They might not be Ultramarines, but they certainly look like them, which is my point. If they're using the same iconography as Ultramarines (say, having a Greco-Roman design and literally having the words 'Ultramarines' on their banners), there's a bit of a difference.

Just blue and ultima symbol, sure, you *could* weasel a different version out. But if I'm seeing something that outright refers to Ultramarines specifically, then I'm sorry, those are models painted as Ultramarines. I still can't force you into playing them actually as Ultramarines if you insist otherwise, but I'm also not going to be overly fond on playing someone with an obvious Chapter who's jumping between the flavours of the month, because that's not an attitude of play which I like to have anything to do with personally. You're welcome to do it, I won't say you're wrong, but I will say I don't want any part in it.

If you refuse to play them, it's you who are in the wrong, not them, IMHO. They are not breaking any rules, and you refusing to play them for not breaking any rules is, IMHO, a poor reflection on your attitude.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Karol wrote:
I wonder what happens if someone is colour blind, like my uncle, and accidently paints his models all red instead of blue.

Just having Blue Space Marines doesn't make you an Ultramarine, any more than Black Space Marines makes you Raven Guard/Iron Hands. Just the block colour scheme isn't enough to say "look, they're clearly XYZ Chapter!" - it's the iconography that would do that for me.

You've got a blue Space Marine? That's a blue Space Marine. Got a Space Marine with the white Ultima symbol? That's a Space Marine with the ultima symbol. You've got a blue Space Marine with a white Ultima symbol? That's an Ultramarine. Colour blindness doesn't stop you from putting down an existing Chapter badge.

Wait a minute, people actualy paint chapter symbols on their models like for real? why would they you can get black or white colour as part of obligatory 5 colours by using on something less hard to paint.

Simple they go faster

I don't get it, how does being blue make them faster?

Karol wrote:

Wait a minute, people actualy paint chapter symbols on their models like for real? why would they you can get black or white colour as part of obligatory 5 colours by using on something less hard to paint.

Because Space Marines are supposed to have chapter symbols... I really don't understand your point. Granted, with a chapter which is provided with transfers in every marine set it is easier to use those.

I don't get it, how does being blue make them faster?

No, being red makes them go faster.

BaconCatBug wrote:If you refuse to play them, it's you who are in the wrong, not them, IMHO. They are not breaking any rules, and you refusing to play them for not breaking any rules is, IMHO, a poor reflection on your attitude.

I don't believe I implied any differently. Yeah, they're not breaking any rules, and in certain situations, wouldn't even be considered slightly taboo or sketchy. However, in other playgroups, doing that would be a bit of a faux pas, and wouldn't be part of that group's playstyle.

What I do disagree with is your implication that refusing to play someone is a bad thing. I'm not obliged to, or expected, to play anyone I don't feel like I'd enjoy playing, and being mature enough to say "hey man, I don't think I'd enjoy this game, but don't let that stop you having a game with someone else, have a good day!" isn't an attitude problem in the slightest. You can disagree with my opinion on how you play painted models as another subfaction (which is cool, difference in opinion is fine), but to say I have a bad attitude if I did refuse to play someone I personally wouldn't enjoy playing against smacks of moral superiority.

There's no rules saying my opponent has to be respectful and at least slightly hygienic, but would you really say I had a bad attitude if I chose not to play someone who was disrespectful and hadn't showered in several weeks? No, because I'm not obliged to play someone I don't think I'd enjoy playing.

Karol wrote:Wait a minute, people actualy paint chapter symbols on their models like for real? why would they you can get black or white colour as part of obligatory 5 colours by using on something less hard to paint.

Because some people prefer their models to look more like what GW's models do, and because Space Marines are supposed to have Chapter symbols. Again, I'm assuming you're mostly in a tourney-heavy environment where most people care more about fulfilling the obligatory 5 colours to avoid being unpainted over creating nice looking models (not that that's mutually exclusive!), but there's a not-insubstantial portion of the hobby who prefer the painting and appearance of their army over just getting them tournament-ready.

Simple they go faster

I don't get it, how does being blue make them faster?

It's an Ork meme. Orks claim that things painted red move faster than things that are not painted red, and because of the Ork power of belief, they actually do. There used to be a wargear upgrade for Ork vehicles that, if they had a Red Paint Job, they got 1" more movement.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
What I do disagree with is your implication that refusing to play someone is a bad thing.

That is not what I was implying. Refusing to play someone for a legitimate reason is fine. That you disagree with their paint-job is not a legitimate reason.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
What I do disagree with is your implication that refusing to play someone is a bad thing.

That is not what I was implying. Refusing to play someone for a legitimate reason is fine. That you disagree with their paint-job is not a legitimate reason.

And you're the arbiter on what's a legitimate reason? I think not.

Is there a rulebook for that?

(Not only that, but you also misrepresent my issue rather spectacularly. There's nothing wrong with with how they've painted their models - but ignoring how their models are presented in order to claim more powerful rules is not something I personally enjoy in my opponents. It smacks of prioritising playing to win over creating a narrative, more relaxed game, and while I'm not going to claim for a second that wanting to play a 'playing to win' game is wrong/bad/inferior at all, it's not how *I* want to play, and I have every right to not play a game like that. Tell me, how is that illegitimate?)

Its sad that Marines cant play different playstyles well if they chose the wrong chapter. Doi really have to buy and paint new models if I want to play an effective list with a bunch of vehicles just because those I have are painted like BA. Other armies except marines can change their rules to fit a certain playstyle so why cant marines?

According to the rules BA vehicles are just complete trash but in lore they arent way way worse than any other chapter. Forcing BA to play with bad vehicles while the IH player who choose the right colors will automaticaly crush BA with the same vehicle list is absurd.

It would be one thing if it was just a small difference in a unit or so but when you have chapter tactics, doctrines, traits, relics, stratagems and psychic powers that all enhace certain playstyles it isnt just choosing flavor of the month. Its more choosing rules that fit what you want with your list.

Like guard go catachan if you want melee Infantry brigade with artillery. Cadian if you want pask and tank commanders. Certain rules for certain playstyles. No one would expect the guard player to use different models and colors depending on what regiment rules they use.

And if going for a fluff reason to use different rules then its easy. Almost every chapter follows the codex and they are all trained in various ways. Their chapter rules is just what style they prefer and not just what they can do. All chapters know how to hunker down in defensive positions and just range fire upon their enemies if that is what is needed. Or go fast and stealthy. Or run them over with landraiders. They adapt as needed in the lore so why is it so hard to accept on the table top?

GW should just have named the Iron Hands supplement "Guillimans guide to mechanized warfare in 41st millenia" and then on page 1 said that this is the best selling of all the great primarchs works in the Iron Hand chapter and they all have this book on their night desk. They really loved it but every marine is forced to read it during their education/indoctrination so not just Iron Hands can fight like this. And then do the same with the other supplement too. Perhaps just keep the unique characters really unique but not the actual playstyle locked behind a paint scheme.

It is just elitist gate keeping that has nothing to do with fluff. Citing background is just a bad excuse since having BA not being able to use vehicles correctly is more against the background than using the BA models with codex space marine rules.

Klickor wrote:
Its sad that Marines cant play different playstyles well if they chose the wrong chapter. Doi really have to buy and paint new models if I want to play an effective list with a bunch of vehicles just because those I have are painted like BA. Other armies except marines can change their rules to fit a certain playstyle so why cant marines?

I don't think there's anything that stops you from having different playstyles if you play the slightly less optimised Chapter.

Just because my Marines are Ultramarines doesn't mean I can't take the same units (barring special characters, of course!) as an Iron Hands player. I'll just have slightly different rules, but I still have that same playstyle.
Just because I'm not Raven Guard doesn't mean I can't take a stealth focused Infiltrators and Scout-heavy list.

Now, if you want that list to be marginally more effective? Well, then it's not about a different playstyle, it's about winning, which as I've said, there's nothing wrong with, but I don't want that to be the objective of games I play, so I'd rather avoid that personally where I can.

Its not just marginaly more effective in the current edition. Taking a vehicle heavy BA list compared to a IH version of the same list. Sure we both have vehicles but one is able to make the vehicles work while the other player tries. The playstyle just doesnt work for BA if you actually want to have a fair game. We could probably make some mirror lists that the IH version would have an above 95% win rate against the exact same BA list. Can you really say BA plays that playstyle then? It tries but thats about it. It should be able to and I have used vehicles with my BA in earlier editions quite well but they really suck right now. But back then the difference was also minimal between the same units from different chapters. Now not every chapter can do multiple roles well anymore so better just see the different rules as different doctrines they all know but certain chapters favor.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Klickor wrote:
Its sad that Marines cant play different playstyles well if they chose the wrong chapter. Doi really have to buy and paint new models if I want to play an effective list with a bunch of vehicles just because those I have are painted like BA. Other armies except marines can change their rules to fit a certain playstyle so why cant marines?

I don't think there's anything that stops you from having different playstyles if you play the slightly less optimised Chapter.

Just because my Marines are Ultramarines doesn't mean I can't take the same units (barring special characters, of course!) as an Iron Hands player. I'll just have slightly different rules, but I still have that same playstyle.
Just because I'm not Raven Guard doesn't mean I can't take a stealth focused Infiltrators and Scout-heavy list.

Now, if you want that list to be marginally more effective? Well, then it's not about a different playstyle, it's about winning, which as I've said, there's nothing wrong with, but I don't want that to be the objective of games I play, so I'd rather avoid that personally where I can.

Also blood angels are a literal separate army, it's not a supplement, or a change of chapter tactics, that's a full book change.

After seeing the supplements I cant really see much of a difference than if it were just another supplement. Wouldnt have to contain much more than the UM one. Sure BA can have a few extra weapons on crap units than the other chapters but that isnt enough to be count as completely separate. I could right now play a list without any BA specific stuff and just by changing the rules and not a single model the list would be much better. I couldnt change it to guard or eldar but 90% of my models would work fine in any marine list. Especially since only 15 of my non BA specific models actually have BA insignias.

UM and BA have close to the same amount of unique rules so them being a different book altogether is mostly semantics. BA have way more common than not with the other chapters and its even weird that one of those things is something that Salamanders should have and that is more flamer/melta options. Normal marines should just have that as well. Then BA wouldnt even have to have special options for the normal units and just for DC, SG, special characters and librarian dread. Perfect for a suppliment.

Klickor wrote:
After seeing the supplements I cant really see much of a difference than if it were just another supplement. Wouldnt have to contain much more than the UM one. Sure BA can have a few extra weapons on crap units than the other chapters but that isnt enough to be count as completely separate. I could right now play a list without any BA specific stuff and just by changing the rules and not a single model the list would be much better. I couldnt change it to guard or eldar but 90% of my models would work fine in any marine list. Especially since only 15 of my non BA specific models actually have BA insignias.

UM and BA have close to the same amount of unique rules so them being a different book altogether is mostly semantics. BA have way more common than not with the other chapters and its even weird that one of those things is something that Salamanders should have and that is more flamer/melta options. Normal marines should just have that as well. Then BA wouldnt even have to have special options for the normal units and just for DC, SG, special characters and librarian dread. Perfect for a suppliment.

It's literally always been this way but these supplements exacerbate the problem even more. With drastic differences in power level. GW just wants to make money. There is no reason other than money that marines shouldn't just be 1 book.

My marines, we'll call them Alpha Hydra Winnicus marines. They have a troubled founding, despite the color of their armor, they constantly evolve to become the perfect killing machines of war.

Evolving upon assimilating the flesh of the fallen, who have better ability than them. They use the sense memory to evolve into their tactics, reverse engineer their technology and relics and even assimilate their characters through stolen gene seed and extensive psycho indoctrination.

Hard to pin down or point out, they infiltrate whole battle companies replacing it man by man, till what once was Ultramarines, becomes Iron hands, becomes Imperial fists or salamanders. Bodies and talents drifting over to be impossible to pick out from the real deal.

They can't be an inferior fighter, it's all in the genes and they adapt to handle any situation. Never staying as one force too long, they stalk the mighty astrates and stay a phantom threat to all marine forces, both loyal and heretic, all fear, the chameleon forces of Alpha Hydra Winnicus, the true terrors of the far future. The only real perfection of the emperors vision for his sons.

Iron Hands have been given too much stuff, they'll likely enjoy it for 6 months, and if its a problem, it will be nerfed.

The danger for Marines is that the nerf is "all vehicles, +50/100 points" which makes them even worse outside of IH.

But yeah... buffs on buffs and buffs is just daft.

Dudeface wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Klickor wrote:
Its sad that Marines cant play different playstyles well if they chose the wrong chapter. Doi really have to buy and paint new models if I want to play an effective list with a bunch of vehicles just because those I have are painted like BA. Other armies except marines can change their rules to fit a certain playstyle so why cant marines?

I don't think there's anything that stops you from having different playstyles if you play the slightly less optimised Chapter.

Just because my Marines are Ultramarines doesn't mean I can't take the same units (barring special characters, of course!) as an Iron Hands player. I'll just have slightly different rules, but I still have that same playstyle.
Just because I'm not Raven Guard doesn't mean I can't take a stealth focused Infiltrators and Scout-heavy list.

Now, if you want that list to be marginally more effective? Well, then it's not about a different playstyle, it's about winning, which as I've said, there's nothing wrong with, but I don't want that to be the objective of games I play, so I'd rather avoid that personally where I can.

Also blood angels are a literal separate army, it's not a supplement, or a change of chapter tactics, that's a full book change.

And I've been over why Blood and Dark Angels need to be consolidated, and the bad balancing as "separate" armies is the reason.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Karol wrote:
I wonder what happens if someone is colour blind, like my uncle, and accidently paints his models all red instead of blue.

Just having Blue Space Marines doesn't make you an Ultramarine, any more than Black Space Marines makes you Raven Guard/Iron Hands. Just the block colour scheme isn't enough to say "look, they're clearly XYZ Chapter!" - it's the iconography that would do that for me.

You've got a blue Space Marine? That's a blue Space Marine. Got a Space Marine with the white Ultima symbol? That's a Space Marine with the ultima symbol. You've got a blue Space Marine with a white Ultima symbol? That's an Ultramarine. Colour blindness doesn't stop you from putting down an existing Chapter badge.

Except my dudes aren't Ultramarines, they are The Marines Ultra, a chapter that got lost in the bureaucracy of the Imperium and were missing in the warp for 8,000 years, who coincidentally have a similar looking Heraldry.

They might not be Ultramarines, but they certainly look like them, which is my point. If they're using the same iconography as Ultramarines (say, having a Greco-Roman design and literally having the words 'Ultramarines' on their banners), there's a bit of a difference.

Just blue and ultima symbol, sure, you *could* weasel a different version out. But if I'm seeing something that outright refers to Ultramarines specifically, then I'm sorry, those are models painted as Ultramarines. I still can't force you into playing them actually as Ultramarines if you insist otherwise, but I'm also not going to be overly fond on playing someone with an obvious Chapter who's jumping between the flavours of the month, because that's not an attitude of play which I like to have anything to do with personally. You're welcome to do it, I won't say you're wrong, but I will say I don't want any part in it.

TBH it'd be one thing if Ultramarines rules where just paints on head bad (it's hard to blame word bearers players from using a differant CT) but Ultramarines are one of the best Marine chapters out there. so using Iron Hands instead in this case is going to come off as a little bit of power gaming yeah.

There is one good thing now with Dark and Blood angels having their own books. You'd imagine if GW was the lazy gits we know them to be, they'd not bump up the point costs blood and dark angel marine vehicles if they do indeed do that to vanilla marine vehicles because of iron hands.

Makes it harder to do balancing unit by unit with all these supplements off the same book when they are flailing the power scale so far. Unless they point value the chapter tactics by chapter. Which might make some sense at this point if they were actually seeking any kind of real balance. Which, I mean I assume they aren't.

So there, hopefully Blood and Dark Angels might get some cheaper stuff in the long run ? Maybe some more expensive as well though you know you never see those point cost reductions ever reach the off shoot books outside of CA drops.

I just don't know how they can ever balance it all even if they make all the chapters in one book with how wildly varied the abilities of some groups would be interacting with certain units otherwise. The bad balancing from different books came usually from them hating to update them when standard gear changed. If they could just maybe, I dunno, drop all the marines in a few months of each other it would be fine.

We all know they want the different marine codex drops though as they went beyond the call to add even more books out there, just call them supplements for the illusion of optional but if you play those factions I doubt they feel optional at all.

I mean give it up to GW, I know I thought it was pretty cheap when the last marine codex came out so expensive. Then they drop this one, cheaper, but a slew of additional books cost even more and make it seem like a boon. They are evolving.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
There is one good thing now with Dark and Blood angels having their own books. You'd imagine if GW was the lazy gits we know them to be, they'd not bump up the point costs blood and dark angel marine vehicles if they do indeed do that to vanilla marine vehicles because of iron hands.

Makes it harder to do balancing unit by unit with all these supplements off the same book when they are flailing the power scale so far. Unless they point value the chapter tactics by chapter. Which might make some sense at this point if they were actually seeking any kind of real balance. Which, I mean I assume they aren't.

So there, hopefully Blood and Dark Angels might get some cheaper stuff in the long run ? Maybe some more expensive as well though you know you never see those point cost reductions ever reach the off shoot books outside of CA drops.

I just don't know how they can ever balance it all even if they make all the chapters in one book with how wildly varied the abilities of some groups would be interacting with certain units otherwise. The bad balancing from different books came usually from them hating to update them when standard gear changed. If they could just maybe, I dunno, drop all the marines in a few months of each other it would be fine.

We all know they want the different marine codex drops though as they went beyond the call to add even more books out there, just call them supplements for the illusion of optional but if you play those factions I doubt they feel optional at all.

I mean give it up to GW, I know I thought it was pretty cheap when the last marine codex came out so expensive. Then they drop this one, cheaper, but a slew of additional books cost even more and make it seem like a boon. They are evolving.

The separation is very much for no reason though and creates differences that make no sense. You mean to tell me that Blood Angels in the entirety of their existence never had access to Thunderfire Cannons? Dark Angels for whatever reason never had Special Issue Bolters for their Vets? The Ultramarines never had Frag Cannons for their Dreads?

It really needs to stop.

I agree with you in part slayer, I do. However that said, it isn't done for a balance reason it's done for a greed reason. It gives them so many colors of marines to drop all through the years to stir up hype.

Place special units, with special colors and force people to double and triple down on the same units for different types of marines.

It's all done to keep marine drops happening, and to try and force people to get multiple marine armies. Much as the supplements are out there to have people spend hundreds of dollars on all the marine books, when just one should have been enough. It's all about money and not about balance.