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At the end of the day, there is no reason they can't be Ultramarines in narrative/casual and Iron Hands in competitive. Just depends on what style you and your opponent feel like playing at the moment.

I run my Ulthwe hemlocks as Alaitoc crimson hunter exarchs all the time when I'm matched against my buddies who I know are looking for a challenge.

But I also run them as Ulthwe just as often because a spearhead of Ulthwe wraithlords is fething awesome and sometimes I want to play with my other toys outside the latest meta cheese. Switching between casual/competitive is tons of fun, I highly recommend it.

No. I don't feel bad being silver Order of the Bloody Rose [I like being stabby; and I'd rather paint GK Sisters than Khador Sisters], or being Cadian Catachans [to be fair, I actually have Catachan models too; my original guardsmen were Catachan, but they're ridiculously poorly painted and very strange looking so I don't use them, but if someone was going to get pissy about it, I could switch out at least enough infantry to make one battalion actually Catachan].

I won't feel bad about playing blue ironhands at all.

That's blasphemous.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".

Seems it's true, after all.

Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.

Dude - I like Ultramarines. Iron hands I think are really dumb. We have the Admech now. We don't need machiney marines. It's also really dumb that a tech marine from other chapters sucks compared to an ironhands one for literally no reason. They are both robotic forge masters dedicated to the machine spirit...Tired of all this snowflake marine BS. Marines are marines. It's not like Ultramarine techmarines are slowed at fixing their vehicals...

It wouldn't be this way if the rules werent so Unbalanced. Game has gotten out of hand with all these free rules.

What do you think Warpsmiths feel like.

They all decided to join the calvary and ride mechanical spiders . Really though what are you saying? Aren't they equal to space marine tech marine? except also have have a weird rule to do mortal wounds to enemy vehicles?

 Xenomancers wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".

Seems it's true, after all.

Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.

Dude - I like Ultramarines. Iron hands I think are really dumb. We have the Admech now. We don't need machiney marines. It's also really dumb that a tech marine from other chapters sucks compared to an ironhands one for literally no reason. They are both robotic forge masters dedicated to the machine spirit...Tired of all this snowflake marine BS. Marines are marines. It's not like Ultramarine techmarines are slowed at fixing their vehicals...

It wouldn't be this way if the rules werent so Unbalanced. Game has gotten out of hand with all these free rules.

What do you think Warpsmiths feel like.

They all decided to join the calvary and ride mechanical spiders . Really though what are you saying? Aren't they equal to space marine tech marine? except also have have a weird rule to do mortal wounds to enemy vehicles?

1 wierd round, and if they join the cav they can't fix gak anymore

Altough i might have personally contributed to the lack of ground crew:

I'm literally going to have my Ultramarines now be Iron Hands

muahhaha. They're unpainted so this should be fine

Wayniac wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just so we're clear here, you are advocating a form of modeling for advantage. Playing an army that is painted and decalled a certain way, and claiming they are something completely different is confusing for opponents and results in an advantage.

That being said, I'm better Black Templars and Salamanders will be NUTS.

Thats not even close to what modeling for advantage is.

Modeling for advantage is the wrong word, but the principle is the same. There just doesn't happen to be a phrase for "Using an army painted like one army as another simply because the rules are better"

This is nonsense

He's not using centurions to represent aggressors, or scouts to represent Phobos Armour, it's just "I'm gonna use these special rules that aren't consistent edition to edition to play the way I prefer as opposed to locking myself into a single faction"

 fraser1191 wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Just so we're clear here, you are advocating a form of modeling for advantage. Playing an army that is painted and decalled a certain way, and claiming they are something completely different is confusing for opponents and results in an advantage.

That being said, I'm better Black Templars and Salamanders will be NUTS.

Thats not even close to what modeling for advantage is.

Modeling for advantage is the wrong word, but the principle is the same. There just doesn't happen to be a phrase for "Using an army painted like one army as another simply because the rules are better"

This is nonsense

He's not using centurions to represent aggressors, or scouts to represent Phobos Armour, it's just "I'm gonna use these special rules that aren't consistent edition to edition to play the way I prefer as opposed to locking myself into a single faction"

Yes indeed.

Nothing wrong with it and anyone who says otherwise is simply wrong.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Nothing wrong with it and anyone who says otherwise is simply wrong.

Classic BCB response hahaha

If you are not going to be in chapter spesific colours, dont paint them chapter spesific in the first place!

No you should just feel bad for playing smurfs in the 1st place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:


I mean I seem to remember smurf players having very few problems when Girly was broke but that was hardly shocking I guess, who knew people who picked the op Mary Sue chapter were fickle and not really fans.

I use Dark Angels rules because my army is Dark Angels and I don't mind that much about power, I'm not the kind of competitive guy.

At the same time I despise the mentality of "If you have your guys painted in this official paint scheme you should use the rules GW has arbitrarely decided they work better for your army, be it from a competitive or a narrative standpoint"

Specially because those are normally the same kind of people that will say "What? Why are you using Marneus Calgar with your Novamarines? If you pain them as Novamarines you can't proxy them as Ultramarines, they have to be successors and lose nearly all the rules!".

Man, Dark Angels successors rules are just so stupid "Do you want freedom to paint your guys? Ok no problem you just lose 30% of the rules of your army."

So for example with my Tau I'll switch rules as much as I want based in the theme of the army I'm gonna play. Fusion spam with stealth suits, Piranhas, Crisis suits, etc...? Vior'la then. Breacher spam in Devilfishes? Farsight enclaves! Not because I want to have a competitive advantage but because the rules help me make my list work in the way I want to play it.
Anyway, GW put out those rules from his ass, so is not like they have any kind of narrative coherency.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".

Seems it's true, after all.

Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.

Dude - I like Ultramarines. Iron hands I think are really dumb. We have the Admech now. We don't need machiney marines. It's also really dumb that a tech marine from other chapters sucks compared to an ironhands one for literally no reason. They are both robotic forge masters dedicated to the machine spirit...Tired of all this snowflake marine BS. Marines are marines. It's not like Ultramarine techmarines are slowed at fixing their vehicals...

It wouldn't be this way if the rules werent so Unbalanced. Game has gotten out of hand with all these free rules.

Let me say first, play what you want, it's all good.

That said, have you even played your Ultras as iron hands or is this more wild speculation based on what we know without on the board trial ? You really need to perhaps relax and let the dust settle before the sky begins to fall. We just got over the great G man genocide and now we're onto Ironhanocalypse. What's next ? Will they be better represented as black templars next ? Maybe salamanders ? How about imperial fists ?

Maybe, love your army and stop trying to chase the dragon ? I know I'm happier in not doing that all the time. Good, bad, you don't prove you are better than anyone just following the marine flavor of the month, you do it with effort, knowledge and experience with your chosen force. Know yourself and your enemy, and you will achieve victory in countless battles. Ultramarines will still be good and ditching out on your blue boys will at the least leave you feeling empty, and at worst be a waste of time and make you feel meh.

AngryAngel80 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
There is a meme circling around the internet, where an Ultramarine crawls into a Ned Flanders' hedge and walks out as an Iron Hand, captioned "Ultramarine players right now".

Seems it's true, after all.

Not only is it true, but it shows how the game has gotten now. People don't pick an army because they like the colors/fluff/etc. its all about how good it is, and then swap to the next big thing with as little work as possible if it comes to it.

Dude - I like Ultramarines. Iron hands I think are really dumb. We have the Admech now. We don't need machiney marines. It's also really dumb that a tech marine from other chapters sucks compared to an ironhands one for literally no reason. They are both robotic forge masters dedicated to the machine spirit...Tired of all this snowflake marine BS. Marines are marines. It's not like Ultramarine techmarines are slowed at fixing their vehicals...

It wouldn't be this way if the rules werent so Unbalanced. Game has gotten out of hand with all these free rules.

Let me say first, play what you want, it's all good.

That said, have you even played your Ultras as iron hands or is this more wild speculation based on what we know without on the board trial ? You really need to perhaps relax and let the dust settle before the sky begins to fall. We just got over the great G man genocide and now we're onto Ironhanocalypse. What's next ? Will they be better represented as black templars next ? Maybe salamanders ? How about imperial fists ?

Maybe, love your army and stop trying to chase the dragon ? I know I'm happier in not doing that all the time. Good, bad, you don't prove you are better than anyone just following the marine flavor of the month, you do it with effort, knowledge and experience with your chosen force. Know yourself and your enemy, and you will achieve victory in countless battles. Ultramarines will still be good and ditching out on your blue boys will at the least leave you feeling empty, and at worst be a waste of time and make you feel meh.

No this is classic xenomancers throwing his hand up in the air and saying trash tier fire without doing any trials, experimentation or getting experience with new rules..

This is the same person after all that was throwing his toys out of the pram and saying the new SM codex was trash tier and its the end of everything because repulsor went up 20 points and he couldint table people... Nothing is ever good enough and no amount of spesh snow flakes rules can make marines good enough unless they just kill everything 100% of the time.

Not even sure what the point of the thread is.. Why do you even want to play in the first place? Marines auto loose trash fire anyway...Riiiiiight?
I really don't understand why you'd need to justify how you play with your blue power armour dudes.. Its still power armour dudes no matter what colour they are. Maybe feel bad about that instead

I don't know, I speak on it more for those who may actually be reading but don't comment often. If someone was out there who felt like after reading all this they " need " to keep changing their army to try and stay on the cutting edge.

I've seen every marine book be the current hot thing for a time, this latest batch is no different.

If GW keep it up, I'm sue Deathwatch will be all " OMG if you aren't deathwatch you aren't worth playing marines !! " remember those threads ? I remember, and so does a current beloved cookie maker.

I'm sure at that point DA and SW will get some nasty super cool stuff and what then ? Will they just keep rotating to the next best thing ?

I mean play what you want but if you're going to just chase the new shinny thing, it's an endless cycle with countless dips and highs that will never end. It's the cycle GW want you on. Why do you think they take into account army paint jobs to lock you into certain armies ? They want you buying all the marine chatpers that way you are never weaker. It's brilliant sales tactics, being happy and making what you have work is bad for the bottom line.

Maybe actually try all this stuff out when it drops though before duck, dipping, dodging and diving into a new chapter hmm ? Remenber, if you can dodge a brick, you can dodge a GW hype train.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
If you are not going to be in chapter spesific colours, dont paint them chapter spesific in the first place!

Well, I'm covered. One of the marine forces I've built over the years is the Mentor Legion.
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Mentors

"Successors of: Unknown"
"The massed ranks of the Chapter are exhaustively trained in the art of war and in the use of Imperial military hardware, both old and new, as the Chapter's primary purpose is to act as a test-bed for the latest Imperial military technology developed by the Mechanicus."

So maybe they're of IH descent.... Or maybe they're just testing out new gear & tactics on this mission, and the next time you see them they'll have switched & be using the rules for _________.
The latter is why I built them. They serve as my catch all force for misc one-off SM stuff I like & armor variants.

This all depends upon me digging them out of storage though.

ccs wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
If you are not going to be in chapter spesific colours, dont paint them chapter spesific in the first place!

Well, I'm covered. One of the marine forces I've built over the years is the Mentor Legion.
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Mentors

"Successors of: Unknown"
"The massed ranks of the Chapter are exhaustively trained in the art of war and in the use of Imperial military hardware, both old and new, as the Chapter's primary purpose is to act as a test-bed for the latest Imperial military technology developed by the Mechanicus."

So maybe they're of IH descent.... Or maybe they're just testing out new gear & tactics on this mission, and the next time you see them they'll have switched & be using the rules for _________.
The latter is why I built them. They serve as my catch all force for misc one-off SM stuff I like & armor variants.

This all depends upon me digging them out of storage though.

A recent novel BTW confirmed they're Ultramarine sucessors.

 Xenomancers wrote:

About 5000 Paints ultras and I love the way it looks. I wouldn't even consdier it if the Ironhands rules wernt that much better for no reason. For example I played Ulthwe since forever - never played aloitoc or ynnari. Because Ulthwe isn't really bad in comparison. Ironhands make Ultras look like an index army.

We're just going to gloss over this gem? No takers? Really?

At the competitive level, Ulthwe actually doesn't compare to Alaitoc at all...

 Xenomancers wrote:
Ironhands are so much better than the other chapters released.
Lets see all the weaknesses Ironhands fix for marines.
6+ FNP (more durable)
Turn 1 (and effectively the whole game) move and shoot heavies (can hide turn 1 and jump out and shoot with no penalty)
Free reroll 1's to hit even when not near a champion (can spread out with units and play objective games)

These things alone would already make them the best overall chapter out of what is released (even without special relics or WL traits or characters) Dev doctrine in the best - there is no real reason to leave it if you are taking the best units in the codex (basically high wound units with heavy weapons).

Then you add in these relics and special characters and it's just silly. A -1 damage aura relic? Are you kidding me? A 5++ save aura on a character in an army that has practically no invune saves? Dude...It's not even cool. An invune aura is exactly what the whole space marine faction needs to be viable...not an iron hands exclusive (who already have the best abilities). Therefore - you are actively gimping your army by not using Ironhands rules. I won't feel bad about playing blue ironhands at all. I can just forge my own narrative you know?

Well, in our local tourneys we won't allow blue ironhands for Emperor's sake.

 slave.entity wrote:
At the competitive level, Ulthwe actually doesn't compare to Alaitoc at all...

TBH it's closest one and one of the better Craftworlds.

BrianDavion wrote:

ccs wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
If you are not going to be in chapter spesific colours, dont paint them chapter spesific in the first place!

Well, I'm covered. One of the marine forces I've built over the years is the Mentor Legion.
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Mentors

"Successors of: Unknown"
"The massed ranks of the Chapter are exhaustively trained in the art of war and in the use of Imperial military hardware, both old and new, as the Chapter's primary purpose is to act as a test-bed for the latest Imperial military technology developed by the Mechanicus."

So maybe they're of IH descent.... Or maybe they're just testing out new gear & tactics on this mission, and the next time you see them they'll have switched & be using the rules for _________.
The latter is why I built them. They serve as my catch all force for misc one-off SM stuff I like & armor variants.

This all depends upon me digging them out of storage though.

A recent novel BTW confirmed they're Ultramarine sucessors.

(shrugs) Novels =/= a source of rules. So unless they print it somewhere in a rule book mine will remain a mystery origin.

ccs wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

ccs wrote:

 FrozenDwarf wrote:
If you are not going to be in chapter spesific colours, dont paint them chapter spesific in the first place!

Well, I'm covered. One of the marine forces I've built over the years is the Mentor Legion.
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Mentors

"Successors of: Unknown"
"The massed ranks of the Chapter are exhaustively trained in the art of war and in the use of Imperial military hardware, both old and new, as the Chapter's primary purpose is to act as a test-bed for the latest Imperial military technology developed by the Mechanicus."

So maybe they're of IH descent.... Or maybe they're just testing out new gear & tactics on this mission, and the next time you see them they'll have switched & be using the rules for _________.
The latter is why I built them. They serve as my catch all force for misc one-off SM stuff I like & armor variants.

This all depends upon me digging them out of storage though.

A recent novel BTW confirmed they're Ultramarine sucessors.

(shrugs) Novels =/= a source of rules. So unless they print it somewhere in a rule book mine will remain a mystery origin.

Unfortunately the supplements say if your successor chapter is established in the background of one of GW publications then you have to use that founding chapters supplement.

Fluff determines rules here.

ccs wrote:
(shrugs) Novels =/= a source of rules. So unless they print it somewhere in a rule book mine will remain a mystery origin.

The rule quite literally says the fluff is rules in this instance.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Unfortunately the supplements say if your successor chapter is established in the background of one of GW publications then you have to use that founding chapters supplement.

Fluff determines rules here.

Which is absurd. In the new codex Mentors are listed as unknown. It is completely unreasonable to assume that players would have to search for references in some obscure BL novels to find out their their origin.

 Crimson wrote:

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Unfortunately the supplements say if your successor chapter is established in the background of one of GW publications then you have to use that founding chapters supplement.

Fluff determines rules here.

Which is absurd. In the new codex Mentors are listed as unknown. It is completely unreasonable to assume that players would have to search for references in some obscure BL novels to find out their their origin.

This is GW were talking about alot of the rules arguments have become absured, doesn't unfortunately stop them being RAW.

Not to mention that I'm sure a number of people saying you must play to paint scheme could be found to have been using custom paint schemes on named charictors. If your going to be the one saying ultramarine painted models must be ultramarine, then you can't use your successors paint job on named charictors as they would have to be painted to box art paint schemes.
No doublr standards thank you.

Ice_can wrote:

This is GW were talking about alot of the rules arguments have become absured, doesn't unfortunately stop them being RAW.

Well, if fluff is rules, then we must treat it like the rules regarding the publishing order too. So as the latest source, Codex Space Mariners Mk2, lists Mentors as unknown, that is what they are; an earlier mention by BL has been superseded.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

About 5000 Paints ultras and I love the way it looks. I wouldn't even consdier it if the Ironhands rules wernt that much better for no reason. For example I played Ulthwe since forever - never played aloitoc or ynnari. Because Ulthwe isn't really bad in comparison. Ironhands make Ultras look like an index army.

We're just going to gloss over this gem? No takers? Really?

This made me chortle, sir. I thought the exact same. Why anyone even answers this guy's posts about space marines any longer, I honestly don't know. His hysteria is beyond even the ludicrous norms of the interwebs.

Well, like most things I think some people answer less for the poster and more to debate the topic and offer up ideas for those who read but not post.

Maybe someone searching the forum is feeling like that and some of the silly shown has changed their mind and they'll stick with their ultramarines ? I can only hope there is some good out of it, as I think we all know Xeno is just going to end up forever bandwagon jumping and freaking out as time goes on.

Others can be saved however.