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Looking over the FAQ and the rules for Lash of Submission it would seem that I could target a unit combat but not remove them from combat...

If the above is true then can I put them in a conga line away from the target leaving 1 in base contact or can I just move ones that are not in base contact around?

Also as I am using Lash in replacement of a range weapon and it dose not count as a range weapon (IE. Doombolt and Bolt of Change in the same book) does that allow me to assault a different unit then the one I used Lash of Submission on?

No, you cannot target a unit in combat, it is a shooting power. To answer the cheese factor question, yes it is very cheesy, I have seen people quit on the hobby because of it.

Yea definitely can't move a unit in combat, as a unit in combat cannot make a normaly move ^^

It's not a PSA so you may use it on target A, and assaut Target B.

The rule for Lash of Submission is that it can not perform a move that is illegal. This includes:

1) Moving out of combat.
2) Moving out of coherency.
3) Moving off the board/into impassable terrain.
4) Moving within 1" of an enemy (meaning the Lash of Submission player).

Other than this, everything is legal. It's not that cheesy though. Sure, it can impact the game, but if you A) have a lot of vehicles, B) have a lot of equally threatening foot units, or C) keep your truly important foot units outside of the range in an otherwise effective spot, then you'll merely be annoyed by it.

Think of it this way, do you get a "normal move" while locked in CC?

No

Its not cheese much anymore considering almost everyone runs a mech-army with their vulnerable troops.

Dave-c wrote:No, you cannot target a unit in combat, it is a shooting power. To answer the cheese factor question, yes it is very cheesy, I have seen people quit on the hobby because of it.

Looks like someone still stuck in 2007.

I'd rather have long fangs or fast attack predators over lash any day. Or demonically possessed vehicles for 5 points. If the rest of the C:CSM codex was half competent then yes, lash would be amazing. Remember kids, its not Codex: Chaos Space Marines it's Codex: Chaos Plague Marines.

terranarc wrote:

Dave-c wrote:No, you cannot target a unit in combat, it is a shooting power. To answer the cheese factor question, yes it is very cheesy, I have seen people quit on the hobby because of it.

Looks like someone still stuck in 2007.

I'd rather have long fangs or fast attack predators over lash any day. Or demonically possessed vehicles for 5 points. If the rest of the C:CSM codex was half competent then yes, lash would be amazing. Remember kids, its not Codex: Chaos Space Marines it's Codex: Chaos Plague Marines.

Exactly. That book has three good units in a mire of terrible units. Lash princes, oblits, and plague marines.

It's really not that OP, just kill the 3+ armor save prince before it can get within 24 inches.

somerandomdude wrote:The rule for Lash of Submission is that it can not perform a move that is illegal. This includes:

1) Moving out of combat.
2) Moving out of coherency.
3) Moving off the board/into impassable terrain.
4) Moving within 1" of an enemy (meaning the Lash of Submission player).

This.

When Lash first came out it was pretty crazy, I didn't run it all the time, and when I did I limited it to one model with it.

Over time CSM slid further down the totem pole of power, and other armies got even crazier toys and tricks, and it became just a goo option which is no longer gamebreaking, in part because many armies make it much less useful by being based around cheap vehicles (which cannot be affected) and taking lots of units of cheap troops who hide in the transports are are individually disposable.


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Night's Blood wrote:

terranarc wrote:Looks like someone still stuck in 2007.

I'd rather have long fangs or fast attack predators over lash any day. Or demonically possessed vehicles for 5 points. If the rest of the C:CSM codex was half competent then yes, lash would be amazing. Remember kids, its not Codex: Chaos Space Marines it's Codex: Chaos Plague Marines.

Exactly. That book has three good units in a mire of terrible units. Lash princes, oblits, and plague marines.

The first part is basically true, the latter statement is erroneous. Internet hyperbole makes "not the single best unit in a given category across the entire game" = "terrible". CSM has quite a few good units, a bunch more usable ones with flaws which are stilll viable for competitive play within particular builds, and several which are complete crap.

I would disagree, Every other unit in the CSM codex is either horrendously overpriced (khorne berzerkers) or simply obsolete ( Rubric Marines). Obliterators are adequate at best for antitank, but the army doesn't have the CC punch or shooting power to deal with the newer armies.

It really isn't hyperbole if empirically its true.

Bezserkers arent horrifically overpriced, compared to the damage they can put out. pip of WS makes a lot of difference.

Why you dont see pure PM lists run - you need to be able to actualy kll something on occasion, sometrhing plagues dont do.

I was more hinting at the fact that the codex itself tends to be overpriced. About zerkers, to each their own, i've just always have been unimpressed with KB's. Sure, they can do some damage on the charge, but overall, in my opinion, they are second class shock troops.

A mate of mine runs 2 Khorne Daemon Princes and 3 Land raiders full of 10 bezerkers with a power fist in there.

He came in the top 10 at Warp Storm this year...


And he won a tournemant we held that had 28 people show up to.

Its a good list. Hard to beat...

Bloodhorror wrote:A mate of mine runs 2 Khorne Daemon Princes and 3 Land raiders full of 10 bezerkers with a power fist in there.

He came in the top 10 at Warp Storm this year...


And he won a tournemant we held that had 28 people show up to.

Its a good list. Hard to beat...

If that's all it is, it sounds quite horrible tbh.

Any shooting or horde army would roll it right over.
Unless he is an amazing tactician, sounds like a 1750 list I guess( dont own the codex, just guessing) maybe more.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Bloodhorror wrote:A mate of mine runs 2 Khorne Daemon Princes and 3 Land raiders full of 10 bezerkers with a power fist in there.

Any shooting or horde army would roll it right over.

It kills 15 orks on the charge. Berserkers are actually quite good against hordes.

15 lootas = dead DP, even with his armour saves, at 48'' distance

Deffrolla = dead LR

The Zerkers can be a rough fight in hth, but ork boys are 6 pts, and Zerkers are?

You'd be up against several units per unit of Zerkers, each with a PK nob in the thick, and with buckets of attacks per unit.

I'd be willing to fight that list with Necrons, even

Except the LR let you pick your charges, and they generally let you screen to avoid being multichared in return. And who cares if the DP die? They 140 points of throw away wounds that move as fast as te vehicles

I've done quite well (a fair few top ten finishes) at 1500 - 1750 with a khorne list, and i use rhinos not LR so even less survivable. Its a threat saturation list.

3 AR 14 targets with 2 3+ save DPs lets you pick charges? Really? Funny, I thought it let you get get melta'ed and the DP's las/missile/plasma sniped. Even if the zerks get into combat, it's likely a screen unit and then they get blown off the table by longfangs/artillery/etc. next turn. And that's assuming they aren't up against something like GKs or BAs who can hang with them in CC, generally for fewer points. Heck, even other Chaos lists can run up and melta the LRs then plasma/lash the zerks inside.

Against orks, yeah you can pick a charge and kill a mob. Then get swamped by multiples- a LR will not block that. Not a good trade. And lootas *will* murder stuff with sheer volume. Generally the princes must hide behind the LRs, which sucks when the Deffrolla comes 'round.

And Khorne DPs are a terrible choice- +1 attack pales compared to +1T and/or re-rolls. At least then they have some resistance against small arms.

Back OT- Lash is not cheesy. With all the vehicles, GKs, Rune Priests, etc. around, it is often anything but!

No, they are a cheap choice. Cheap is not "terrible", when they still take a fair amount to drop. +1T helps not a jot against missiles.

jmurph wrote:3 AR 14 targets with 2 3+ save DPs lets you pick charges? Really? Funny, I thought it let you get get melta'ed and the DP's las/missile/plasma sniped. Even if the zerks get into combat, it's likely a screen unit and then they get blown off the table by longfangs/artillery/etc. next turn. And that's assuming they aren't up against something like GKs or BAs who can hang with them in CC, generally for fewer points. Heck, even other Chaos lists can run up and melta the LRs then plasma/lash the zerks inside.

Against orks, yeah you can pick a charge and kill a mob. Then get swamped by multiples- a LR will not block that. Not a good trade. And lootas *will* murder stuff with sheer volume. Generally the princes must hide behind the LRs, which sucks when the Deffrolla comes 'round.

And Khorne DPs are a terrible choice- +1 attack pales compared to +1T and/or re-rolls. At least then they have some resistance against small arms.

Back OT- Lash is not cheesy. With all the vehicles, GKs, Rune Priests, etc. around, it is often anything but!

I disagree. Any heavy weapon vehicles with these all powerful meltas everyone keeps mentioning will get torn to shreads by the two TL las cannons mounted on the raiders. plus with an cc army the raiders can have the berzerkers in combat 1st turn.
1- set it sideways against the deployment line
2- on first turn, pivot to face your enemies on the other line, now you have 2 inches
3- move up 12, now you have 14
4- deply 2 inches from the hatch, now you have 16
5- assualt 6, now you have 20.

if they are in the middle of a horde armies battle lines you arent ever going to be able to get a good layer of shooting on em and heaven forbid you take some obliterators and spam plasma cannons. This list is scary and as both a GK player and a cron player i'd have to do some serious adjusting to my normal list to confront it.

if worse comes to worse all you really have to do against hoarding armies like the orks is sit on an objective with the raiders. Many hoarding armies have very little (i did not say all hoarding armies have nothing) to compensate for an armor 14. Thats why i run 3 monoliths in a 2500 crons game.

not Cheese just annoying... and i'm a Space Marine player

Is the lash cheesy. I think it depends on what list you field against it. Space wolves, blood angels, grey knights. You all cant complain because you have cheese dex. Chaos is so in need of an update that lash is about thei only way for them to succeed in a tournament level game. I faced double lash in a tournament recently with my ultramarines. One lash got killed off before it could do anything and the other did causee some problems. Honestly though its not as big a deal as a lot of other units in the game can be.

IF people have quit the game over this, thats laughable. come on guys , grow up. Its a game.

sennacherib wrote:IF people have quit the game over this, thats laughable. come on guys , grow up. Its a game.

Some people cannot cope with a change to the status-quo. Having to learn something new takes them out of their comfort zones.

Check with your T.O.s, but some tournaments are making some pretty crazy RAW rulings based off of the new faq about psychic shooting attack. Lash is not a psychic shooting attack, so many people are saying you can move 12 inches in a rhino, pop smoke and still lash with a sorceror inside! Also, you can lash before or after your squad has shot, whatever you want, and also target one squad with lash then charge or shoot another target! It'd be so broken if everyone didn't play mech these days!

Everything you quoted is indeed true.

Bit hard to play Mech with Necrons or Nids, so it'd still be broken regardless..

Let's be honest...watching a Wolfstar do absolutely fethall because it gets lashed back every time it gets within 24" is pretty hilarious. Lash is the one trick that CSM has going for it. Cheesy? Not in the context of the codex as a whole.