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So, friend of mine started Space Wolves. I've played one game with him in my team (I'm an Eldar player, basically footslog, I ahve a Falcon, some Vypers and a Walker) and once against him in an Apocalypse battle.

Now the thing is, he made quite a few mistakes because it's all pretty much new to him, but now he's starting to catch up. Frankly, I'm a bit worried about it. Those Wolves have, like all of them Marines I guess, a huge goodiebag of abilities. The thing is that a lot of these abilities that I'd say constitute psyker abilities, are not actually psyker abilities. Which means, runes of warding will do ziltch.

Are there any tactics or general tips that you guys could give me for when I face off against him in a next game?

Lots of Rangers. If he take Thunderwolves or long fangs and doesn't go vehicle heavy, he will hate you quickly. I recommend 40 rangers. Some Fire Dragons and Farseers as well. Enjoy. Space Puppies don't like that...

Pathfinders should work. But watch out for the SW Scouts coming from your board edge. You need a counter-strike unit to destroy them, like Scorpions.

The thing I'll have the biggest problem with, I think, next time will be his HQ squad in a Razorback (is that it? the armour 14 all round tank). He usually runs Logan in a squad of assault marines. Last time I got to kill of Logan with my 'Quins, but that's only because he made the mistake of disembarking a bit to early.

Also, that guy that conjures up a storm of some kind that does something different every turn, how do I deal with that guy? The copulating thing about him is that that storm is not a psyker power...

As for 40 rangers... I have seven. Fire Dragons, I do not possess.

Well, it will be difficult to take on a competitive SW army with a limited Eldar model range.
What models do you have?

Get more Dragons. You'll need them for all opponents.

It's a Land Raider he had.

Actual models I own (well, 'cept for the Shining Spears, I still need to properly convert the guardians on the jetbikes)

HQ

1 Eldrad,
1 Jain Zar
1 Solitaire, counts as Yriel
1 Farseer
6 Warlock


Troop
7 Rangers
2 x 10 Dire Avengers
29 Guardians, 1 canon model


Elite
5 Banshees
3 Scorpions
7 Wraithguards
20 Harlequins (1 Death Jester)


Heavy
1 Falcon
4 Dark Reapers
1 War Walker

Fast
4 Shining Spears
13 Swooping Hawks
12 Warp Spiders
3 Vypers pnts.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and ofcourse a Wraithlord

I hate to be the skeptic here, but I'm skeptical that a foot Eldar army can handle any decent space wolf build. Even mechanized Eldar armies have a hard enough time with Space Wolves.

His basic troops outfight your dedicated assault units in hand-to-hand (you can only ever gain a temporary advantage). His firepower is cheaper and easier to spam. And his elite units--thunderwolves, characters and so forth--are both cheaper and more powerful than Eldar equivalents.

Mobility is the only advantage Eldar have over Space Wolves, and you only beat him on mobility if your army is mechanized.

If you start losing a lot of games to his wolves, it might be time to mech up.

I feared as much... Is this a result of Eldar still being in 4th ed., or is it a case of Posterboy bias?

It's because of both the older codex for Eldar and the new one for Space Wolves.

SW just unfortunately got a lot of things that are really deadly to Eldar armies of all kinds, but especially foot armies. Long Fangs with spammed missile launchers rip the crap out of wraithlords, wraithguard, the Avatar. Living lightning is deadly to vypers and war walkers. Troops with three base attacks (usually) even when you get the charge and strike first still have enough attacks to overwhelm Eldar T3 and 4+/5+ saves. Also they got a superior version of the psychic hood.

Mech Eldar can mostly handle space wolves by interdicting their movement with grav tanks. But if you don't have vehicles to block their movement, they can outshoot you for two turns until they get close, then assault and win, and there's not much you can do to stop them.

Thom wrote:Those Wolves have, like all of them Marines I guess, a huge goodiebag of abilities. The thing is that a lot of these abilities that I'd say constitute psyker abilities, are not actually psyker abilities. Which means, runes of warding will do ziltch.

Name 3.

3 abilities? Well, I can't - 'cause I don't own the codex. Last time I played, however, there were all sorts of things happening that I couldn't stop with RoW. Like that storm that that Stormguy summons, can't do anything about that. And there was a weapon that did something spiffy, I think it was on a runepriest...

Flavius Infernus wrote:Even mechanized Eldar armies have a hard enough time with Space Wolves....Mobility is the only advantage Eldar have over Space Wolves, and you only beat him on mobility if your army is mechanized....If you start losing a lot of games to his wolves, it might be time to mech up.

I play Eldar and can confirm this. My main opponent plays SW and I had the hardest time with him - until I went full mech. Played last night for the first time against him with full mech list - was a great game and I won Capture and Control on turn 6! Keep your grav tanks away from CC units or make sure they move 7-12" to force a 6 to hit!

So, I guess I'd better start saving then.

honestly, buy used. i bought 2 wave serpents new and thought 'it'll take forever to save enough to go full mech'. i went to the dakka swap shop and got 10 grav tanks (i think 6 wave serpents, 3 falcons, 1 fire prism) for $150. most were primed or bare plastic, but some i had to remove paint - i used superclean and got rid of all the paint without damaging the plastic for $5 and some scrubbing - you can see a tut here: http://youtu.be/E93Ii_rH4_A

for ref, this is my 1500 list:

Autarch w/Fusion Gun (goes in serpent with fire dragons)

Farseer w/RoWarding, Guide, singing spear (goes in falcon)

5 Fire Dragons
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Shuri-Cannon, Spirit Stones

5 Fire Dragons
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Shuri-Cannon, Spirit Stones

5 Dire Avengers
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Laser

5 Dire Avengers
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Laser

5 Dire Avengers
- in Wave Serpent w/TL Scatter Laser

5 Dire Avengers
- in Falcon w/EML, Holofield, SpiritStones

3 War Walkers w/2x Scatter Lasers Each

Total: 1498pts

There is no need to mech if you don't want. Yes, your army is not 'optimised', but from the sounds of it neither is his. Yes, Wolves are a better Codex and a tough contest no matter what they field, but foot Eldar is viable. Another thing to remember is that in the prism of the internet, all armies are considered to be either 'decent', which means that they take only what is considered to be competitive and spam it, or 'worthless', which is anything else. This does not sound like it especially applies to you gaming against your friend at home.

Foot Eldar have the tools to beat Space Wolves, even competitive builds, but it is never easy and never forgiving for the Eldar player. It is, however, possible, because foot Eldar are insanely resilient. You can take their punches far better than anyone thinks you can. Space Wolf armies have no weaknesses, so instead you must focus on maximising your strengths and blunting their attacks.

Looking at what you have mentioned, you describe Logan in a Land Raider with some marines, and Njal. Njal has Lord of Tempests, which is the thing you describe that does something different every turn and is not a psychic power, but that only really affects things within 24" of him. All the effects are bad, especially -1 BS, but Njal must get to 24" to have any effect. The staff that negates all your powers on a 3+ similarly only works inside 24". All of his other powers are Psychic powers, and your runes will work on them just fine. Furthermore, if Eldrad is outside 24", he casts without any hindrance. So, the obvious solution is to kill him before he gets to 24", and he's only a 2 wound model. If he's outside of a vehicle, this should not be too hard. If he goes inside the Raider or deploys by pod or something, things get harder, but this brings us to the next point you mention...

Which is Logan and marines in a Land Raider. You can kill Raiders at range - bright lances can do it. The hard part about Eldar is having enough bright lances that hit. You can take lances on Guardians, and I do, but having those do anything is luck, and the only real reason to do it is because you have to take Guardians, and a few extra lances will probably kill something at some point in the game. Your accurate lances that actually kill things come on Wraithlords and guided War Walkers. Both of these are potential solutions to Land Raiders. So are Fire Dragons, but you have to get close, and then you will need a grav tank or two.

The other common Wolf units that you don't mention, but that are in most Wolf builds are Long Fangs, Razorbacks, and Thunderwolf Cav. You can deal with these. Razorbacks are killed like any other light transport - high volume shooting with mid-strength weapons. Long Fangs are just Marines, generally inside vehicles or in cover at long range, and are killed at range like any other marines - high volume shooting with mid-strength weapons. Thunderwolf Cav are awesome, and will be on you 2nd turn at the latest, and you'll lose at least one unit, but if you set it up right, you will then get a turn of close range shooting, and Thunderwolf Cav are best killed by high-volume shooting with mid-strength weapons. Fortunately, one of the few things that Eldar do well is high volume shooting with mid-strength weapons.

Assaulting Wolves, as you've seen, is always iffy. You can do it, but it needs to be a very hard hit straight up. You need some counterassault, because Wolves will be in your face, and Harlequins and the Avatar are your best bets.

Looking at what you have, then, you can make a perfectly viable list, especially for your purposes.

Eldrad: There really isn't a good reason to take a Farseer on foot when you have Eldrad. He's just better at everything, and for not many more points. The 3 powers a turn, with duplication, is the real difference. He needs to be close to all your army's important elements, and thus needs some protection, but he is key.

The Avatar: The Avatar is the other key. Fearlessness changes the Eldar army immensely. People say the Avatar is fragile, but I don't buy it. I've never, ever seen a Fortuned Avatar die. You want him trying to kill the Avatar as much as possible, because a Fortuned Avatar can eat a whole army's worth of firepower and keep on keeping on, leaving your other units untouched to do their best.

War Walkers: Spending money here should be your first move if you don't want to invest in grav tanks. The War Walker is the best unit in the Eldar Codex. They will die fast if targeted, and need some sort of cover either from terrain or the Avatar, but these things are what will do your heavy lifting in the first few turns of the game. Guided Scatter Laser Walkers remove units wholesale. Guided ML/BL Walkers kill a big scary vehicle. Put them in squadrons of 3 for a bit more survivability and to maximise the effects of Guide.

Rangers: I think the idea of 40 Rangers isn't going to work. Even Pathfinders just don't kill enough. They're static, die instantly when anything gets close, and put out only a few wounds a turn, even if they're AP1. I use one squad of 5 to camp an objective and force the enemy to get close to remove it, but I never expect them to do more than kill one or two guys for annoyance value.

Avengers: I prefer to run Guardians for the heavy weapons as foot troops, but Avengers are nice. I've seen whole units of Thunderwolf Cav wiped out in a turn by nothing more than Doom and Bladestorm. Wolf players hate it when that happens, because they generally have in their minds that Thunderwolf Cav is invincible.

Wraithguard: Underuseful for what they cost, but a unit of 3 or 4 as a bodyguard for Eldrad is my preference. They give majority T6, claim cover saves from other infantry, and Wraithcannons will kill a couple of Thunderwolf Cav when you get that close range shot, as well as assault vehicles if they get to you.

Harlequins: Another key to your army. Harlequins are what you can use to give all the rest of your foot troops that all important cover save. And when the opponent is close enough to negate Veil, he's in charge range. They usually die, and almost definitely will against Wolves, but use of Fortune and/or Doom will ensure that they take out what they aim at.

Dark Reapers: I don't use these, as I want to be able to be moving and shooting constantly even with heavy weapons, but they have a role against armies that are not fully meched. If he were running Razorback spam, I'd leave them out, but in the environment it sounds like you're playing, you may find them useful. Reapers with psychic support outshoot Long Fangs.

In short, I think you can do it. Just remember that Wolves are at their most lethal within 24". Outside of that, you have a firepower advantage. Foot Eldar is not as mobile as mech, but it is more mobile than people think, and much more resilient than people think.

Relic_OMO wrote:There is no need to mech if you don't want.

True. Didn't mean to imply that you had to mech up. But my mech list has been doing phenomenally compared to my footdar. Perhaps I've just found my style of play...

Relic_OMO wrote:Which is Logan and marines in a Land Raider. You can kill Raiders at range - bright lances can do it. The hard part about Eldar is having enough bright lances that hit. You can take lances on Guardians, and I do, but having those do anything is luck, and the only real reason to do it is because you have to take Guardians, and a few extra lances will probably kill something at some point in the game. Your accurate lances that actually kill things come on Wraithlords and guided War Walkers. Both of these are potential solutions to Land Raiders. So are Fire Dragons, but you have to get close, and then you will need a grav tank or two.

I've found that bright lances are more or less useless unless guided, and preferably targeting a doomed unit. Other than that, which can be pricey points wise, I'd rather spam s6 shots and sport some fire dragons in grav tanks and a falcon (or two).

Relic_OMO wrote:Fortunately, one of the few things that Eldar do well is high volume shooting with mid-strength weapons.

Couldn't agree more! 3 War Walkers with 2x Scatter Lasers each equals 24 str6 shots, and with outflank you can hit side/rear armour, all for 180 pts. Too good to pass up. And I have found them surprisingly resilient...

Relic_OMO wrote:Avengers: I prefer to run Guardians for the heavy weapons as foot troops, but Avengers are nice. I've seen whole units of Thunderwolf Cav wiped out in a turn by nothing more than Doom and Bladestorm. Wolf players hate it when that happens, because they generally have in their minds that Thunderwolf Cav is invincible.

I love my Dire Avengers, and hate my Guardians. I run DA raw to maximize the number of tanks I can squeeze in.

In larger pt games, I run a Seer Council and Harlies in a fully mech list. My SW opponents usually have a hard time to deal with them.

beltenebros wrote:

I've found that bright lances are more or less useless unless guided, and preferably targeting a doomed unit. Other than that, which can be pricey points wise, I'd rather spam s6 shots and sport some fire dragons in grav tanks and a falcon (or two).

Not sure what benefit lances get from Doom.

Killing heavy armour is the biggest problem for Eldar. All truly viable options are close range, and most people take Dragons. Dragons are fine, but to be honest, it's all too easy for them to do nothing. 5 Dragons shooting at AV14 at 6" inflict about 2 penetrating hits. Odds are with you that you will destroy, but it's all too frequent that you don't. And then all you have is a heavy vehicle that isn't destroyed, and a squad of Dragons and transport that will probably die. You can double up 2 units on the same 1 vehicle to increase odds, but unless the vehicle is isolated you'll probably end up losing all your heavy anti-armour. I think this is the major weakness of the mech Eldar S6 spam - relying on 5 man Dragon squads for killing heavy things. Sure, lances aren't any better, but with range you can generally try again next turn.

However, that's the mech vs foot Eldar argument, and it's not entirely relevant to the OP's question. He'll be fine with some understanding of the strengths of his army and the myriad strengths of Wolves.

Buy a Tau Hammerhead, Glue the gun turret into a Ranger's hand and say it's legal. Railgun Ranger? Yes please.

well like anything it i 40k it may not be easy but can be done ranger/pathfinder will help from what your listing here your kind of in the middle of melee and volume fire. with Mechdar is revolves around protected troops the can surgicly strike with high volume of fire. your typical footdar list does the same with a massive amount of cheap infantry. the problem with what you have is not way of stopping a mass advance these days not may have to tools in their dexs to counter full marine pushes. for hat you have there is gonna need a synergy approach with a good unit formation eldar dont have the most consistant unstopable melee but if you can get some solid shooting in it wont matter couple that with some good old doom and you can break even space wolfs. Yriels great i use him with banshees and can even beat the dreaded death company as long as i assault him.

with what you have arrayed here you need to have some heavy shooting followed by assaulting the remainder IF you buddy doesnt have lots of heavy weapons the wraith units will help alot but I dont know his list so warlocking them with concel and having them in the center with be a start. dire avangers behind the gaurdians warlocks in each squad with conceal and moral reroll the big thing is you will need to keep yourself tight to be able to direct enough fire and finish the remander if need be with spiders banshees or scorpions, with footdar its touch but not impossible.

what setup is the SW army?

Logan and Njal both have saga of majesty.
That's... Illegal.

I would wait until turn two, "notice" it, and then make him choose which one to remove from the game.

Relic_OMO wrote:There is no need to mech if you don't want. Yes, your army is not 'optimised', but from the sounds of it neither is his. Yes, Wolves are a better Codex and a tough contest no matter what they field, but foot Eldar is viable. Another thing to remember is that in the prism of the internet, all armies are considered to be either 'decent', which means that they take only what is considered to be competitive and spam it, or 'worthless', which is anything else.

I hope I didn't come across as sounding like I thought footdar lists were "worthless." My opinion comes not from reading the Internet, but rather from playing both types of lists against a variety of opponents.

Foot Eldar lists really seem to rock for some reason against Tyranids. It doesn't make sense, but it always seems to me that I totally table nids with a footdar list.

Against any kind of mech or marine army, though, it's always an uphill struggle with foot troops. I've played armies that emphasize war walkers (which I also use with mech) and combos with dark reapers and pathfinders, Eldrad is always a must, and Maugan Ra actually usually does more for me than the Avatar. But the problem is that you're so static against a mech list that (1) if they outshoot you, they can stand off and shoot you to death and (2) if they can out-assault you, you can't really stop them from closing and decimating your firebase. You get a chance to countercharge, but if they outclass you like Space Wolves do, then your countercharge will wipe one unit and fizzle out, then get destroyed by their counter-counter charge.

Also think about thunderwolves for a minute. T5, 2 wounds, a mix of 3+ armor and 3++ invul saves that can be allocated individually, plus a 19-24" assault threat range, some str8 thunderhammers, and enough base attacks to wipe any Eldar unit. Eldar don't really have an answer to this other than interdicting movement with vehicles.

Like I said, if you're losing a lot of games, consider meching up. Accumulate grav tanks gradually. It took me 10 years of playing different Eldar armies before I finally got all the way to 6 serpents + 1-2 falcons that I use now.

A few Marines hate Rangers......... some Marines hate Fire Dragons.... every Marines hate Farseer.

Thanks guys, really, really solid advice this. Basically, as I read it, I have to do what I was already doing but thought through. Careful deployment and further movement and things like that really are essential in a game like this, right?

People keep mentioning Thunderwolf Cav., the unit I had the least problems with last time. Though, that might be cause I spammed the two models to death immediately with spiders and hawks.

It's also good to know that Njal and Logan can't be played at the same time.

I would give you guys the list I'm playing against, unfortunately I don't have it. But these general tactics that you've posted are good nonetheless. Thanks, again.

All marine armies hate my eldar. Dual autach eldar really ruins their day, since you will always get your alpha-strike.

woodbok wrote:All marine armies hate my eldar. Dual autach eldar really ruins their day, since you will always get your alpha-strike.

SW and BA have ways to deal with Eldar even if its a mech army.

Thom, the SW stuff you play against is (from the top of my head):

HQ:
- Logan Grimnar
- Njal Stormcaller
- Terminator Wolf Lord TH/SS
- Terminator Rune Priest

Troops:
- 10 Grey Hunters (flamer flamer)
- 10 Grey Hunters (flamer melta)
- 10 Grey Hunters (melta melta) (drop pod)
- 5 Blood Claws + Lucas (flamer) (laslas Razorback)

Elite:
- Dreadnought (multi-melta flamer) (drop pod)
- Wolf Guard (Arjac, 1 ta TH/SS, 2 ta LCs, 2 pa LCs) (in Raider)
- Wolf Guard (1 ta AC/SS, some pa dudes)
- 5 Scouts (snipers, melta bombs)

Fast Attack:
- 2 Thunderwolf Cav (magnetized, so varying loadouts)

Heavy Support:
- Land Raider Redeemer
- 6 Long Fangs (2 las, 3 missile)
- 6 Long Fangs (2 las, 3 missile)

How many points is this?

I believe somewhere around the 3500 range, so the guy usually mixes and matches from this list.