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RaptorsTallon wrote:

How would the resurection orb help? Once you have no models left on the field you auto-lose, therefore the resurection orb would never be used.

RaptorsTallon wrote:
In a normal game, it would affect the lord, but the standered rules of 40K say that if a player has no models left alive on the field, then they lose. So the point I am making is that you would lose as soon as the lord died, so you wouldn't get chance to use the Res Orb.

So this is from Subject: Best HQ COMPETITION! Only 100 spots over in Army Lists. Obviously this is Raptors' view that if you have on models left alive on the field you loose.
I disagree if you lost for having no living models alive on the field then Drop Pod armies would not work. Anytime you fully reserve because its DOW you loose. If all my opponent does is put down a tac squad in DOW and I kill it I win? He has nothing left alive on the field. That can't be right yet Raptors keeps saying its a rule. My question is who is right and why?

You're right. If this was true, then my dual autarch eldar would be auto-fail.

"...if at the end of any standard mission your enemy has no units left on the table, you win the game." Main rules page 90.

Standard missions last between 5 and 7 turns.

In DOW, if you wipe out the first unit on the board has the game reached turn 5? No? Then your opponent doesn't lose at that point.

As for the Necron Lord, if it has a res orb it will always get a WBB roll which happens at the start of the Necron turn, so it would get a chance to make the roll.
However, if only the Lord is left, the Necron force will have had to have reached phase out at that point anyway and the game would be over for them.

He is incorrect. He may be thinking of the rule that states if you destroy your enemy's army, then you win, no matter the victory conditions. It has nothing to do with anything being on the board or not.

Edit: Ninja'd. Time Wizard has it.

If you have nothing on the board, and no game left, you auto lose. So, you have not been "tabled" as long as the game has not ended.

Homer

If you wipeout an entire enemy army,with no reserves or respawning units left,why is it not an automatic win then?

For example

A Drop Pod army,where everything is in a Drop Pod bar 1 Land Speeder Storm,is lost to mishap.The next turn,an Orbital Strike relay,Lance Strike(Str 10,AP1)hits it,auto penetrating and rolls a 3 for damaged,which is then increased to 5(+1 for Open topped,+1 for AP1).The


Marine player now has no units left,either in reserve or on board.Would he not now automatically lose?He can't do anything,and all that is going to happen is as few more movments which don't matter.Why wait untill turn 5+?

Deadshot wrote:If you wipeout an entire enemy army,with no reserves or respawning units left,why is it not an automatic win then?

For example

A Drop Pod army,where everything is in a Drop Pod bar 1 Land Speeder Storm,is lost to mishap.The next turn,an Orbital Strike relay,Lance Strike(Str 10,AP1)hits it,auto penetrating and rolls a 3 for damaged,which is then increased to 5(+1 for Open topped,+1 for AP1).The


Marine player now has no units left,either in reserve or on board.Would he not now automatically lose?He can't do anything,and all that is going to happen is as few more movments which don't matter.Why wait untill turn 5+?

Because that's what the rules tell you to do. But that's not what the OP was saying.

If you are in a tournament you play the extra turns moving because sometimes you get extra points for having certain units on certain objectives.

In friendly games it does not much matter.

However, the person that has models simply says he is not moving or shooting for the rest of the game and the game ends.

Ok thanks thats what I thought, but I wasn't sure. I do remember the part about having nothing at the end of the game then you loose regardless of score. Its the only thing giving my DE a chance in KP.
The whole HQ thing is one on one and the necron guy had the orb to try and resurrect himself. Now I do think that will work since he still gets his roll before phase out.
Thanks

edit: Changed my mind after thinking things through.

Could you post a link to the thread?

It would help being able to see the full scenario rules you were playing under.

Yeah here.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392498.page
note that we were coming up with HQs and they were being played out by the OP of that thread.

Akroma06 wrote:Ok thanks thats what I thought, but I wasn't sure. I do remember the part about having nothing at the end of the game then you loose regardless of score. Its the only thing giving my DE a chance in KP.
The whole HQ thing is one on one and the necron guy had the orb to try and resurrect himself. Now I don't think that would work as his phase out would be 0 and he's at 0 at that point.
Thanks

Incorrect. Phase out states "is reduced to 25% casualties or less of its original models" which is then specifically defined as "(in other words, 75% of its models, rounding fractions up, are destroyed)." In other words, he must destroy 1 * .75 = .75 rounded up = 1 necron in order to phase out his opponent, and as such he phases out at 0 Necrons left. However, the last line of phase out reads "Phase out is calculated at the beginning of the Necron turn after all Will Be Back rolls have been taken."

In other words, he would still get his WBB roll.

To clarify, the Wipeout! rule reads as such:
WIPEOUT!
Regardless of the victory conditions, if at the end of
any standard mission your enemy has no units left on
the table, you win the game!

But Will Be Back specifically states that models that are awaiting a WBB roll remain on the table.

In short, he'd get his WBB roll, but if he failed it the model is removed as a casualty and then Phase out would take effect at the start of his next turn, or if the end of the game is reached prior to that Wipeout! would take effect.

Also, if the game ends prior to him making the WBB roll, all downed models are treated as casualties, thus Wipeout! would take effect.

Note: It's been pointed out to me that my codex is the older original 2002 printing, and as such I cannot ensure that this hasn't changed in the 2003 printing.

WanderingFox wrote:

Akroma06 wrote:Ok thanks thats what I thought, but I wasn't sure. I do remember the part about having nothing at the end of the game then you loose regardless of score. Its the only thing giving my DE a chance in KP.
The whole HQ thing is one on one and the necron guy had the orb to try and resurrect himself. Now I don't think that would work as his phase out would be 0 and he's at 0 at that point.
Thanks

Incorrect. Phase out states "is reduced to 25% casualties or less of its original models" which is then specifically defined as "(in other words, 75% of its models, rounding fractions up, are destroyed)." In other words, he must destroy 1 * .75 = .75 rounded up = 1 necron in order to phase out his opponent, and as such he phases out at 0 Necrons left. However, the last line of phase out reads "Phase out is calculated at the beginning of the Necron turn after all Will Be Back rolls have been taken."

In other words, he would still get his WBB roll.

To clarify, the Wipeout! rule reads as such:
WIPEOUT!
Regardless of the victory conditions, if at the end of
any standard mission your enemy has no units left on
the table, you win the game!

But Will Be Back specifically states that models that are awaiting a WBB roll remain on the table.

In short, he'd get his WBB roll, but if he failed it the model is removed as a casualty and then Phase out would take effect at the start of his next turn, or if the end of the game is reached prior to that Wipeout! would take effect.

Also, if the game ends prior to him making the WBB roll, all downed models are treated as casualties, thus Wipeout! would take effect.

Note: It's been pointed out to me that my codex is the older original 2002 printing, and as such I cannot ensure that this hasn't changed in the 2003 printing.

No I believe you are correct still and I realised my mistake after thinking about it but I posted it over there not here. I'll edit my post here too.

If i remember right you lose if you had your whole army wiped out. You don't lose if you have nothing left on the table at the end of the turn unless the game has also ended. If you have army left to show up next turn you didn't truly get tabled you just denied the enemy a turn of shooting at you which is a good thing.

I played a game against a guy playing SoB. I had killed Celestine but she passed her test. Everything else was dead when she fell. The game still wasn't over then though.

In order for Wipeout! to take affect, you have to reach the last turn of the game. Usually people call it once they've been tabled, because there's nothing else that's going to change, but this became important several times in the recent 'ard boyz tournaments. Some of the bonus objectives required you to have units in certain positions by the end of the game, and if you tabled someone on turn 3 before you reached those objectives, and ended the game right there, you would've lost the bonus points.

Portugal Jones wrote:In order for Wipeout! to take affect, you have to reach the last turn of the game. Usually people call it once they've been tabled, because there's nothing else that's going to change, but this became important several times in the recent 'ard boyz tournaments. Some of the bonus objectives required you to have units in certain positions by the end of the game, and if you tabled someone on turn 3 before you reached those objectives, and ended the game right there, you would've lost the bonus points.

Actually you won't loose those points...not right away. People may call it in friendly games and that's fine I do, but in a tournament...well all of them I've been too including 'ard boys semis allows you to use your remaining turns to move as fast as possible to try and get those bonus points. The game isn't over until the end of the last player turn (5, 6, or 7 depending on rolls).

That's what I just said.

Oh I thought you were saying if you table them on turn 3 then it was over right then and there. My bad dude I'm with you now.

Right, what it looks like he was saying was that most people call the game immediately once the opponent has been wiped out, and quite a few probably think that's the actual rule - as soon as someone is tabled, the game ends.

Instead of realizing the actual wording means the game should go through the rest of its turns before victory is declared.