Adeptus Custodes and The Grey Knights?Possible connection?

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**Deadshot**

Is it possible that the GK and the Custodes are related?

Both are described as superior to normal SM in every way.When the Grey Knights were formed,the Emperor hadn't yet sat on the Golden Throne.At this point, Guilliman hadn't yet introduced the Codex Astartes,so the Grey Knights,which were formed as a Chapter,wouldn't have been formed as a chapter,because there were no chapters.The Custodes are descibed as being 10,000 strong,same number as a SM legion.

So here is my speculations.

1)The Custiodes were one of the Missing Legions,The Grey Knights another
2,and probably most likely)The Custodes were an organization,and the Grey Knights a dirivetive chapter
3)The Custodes were one of the missing legions,and the Grey Knights a dirivetive chapter.
3)The Emperor did not set up the Grey Knights,because they would have been a legion.It wasdn't untill after the Codex that chapters started arppearing.Someone else set them up later.

**Coolyo294**

Custodes aren't Space Marines.

**English Assassin**

1) Were they indeed?
2) Oh really?
3) See 1.
4) Have you even read the Grey Knights' Codex?

**Deadshot**

They are described as being the same as same as SM,just superior in every way.The GK are described as mega-marines.

@ English Assassin.

1 and 3 are not the same.Reread them.
What do you mean "oh really"?

How would the GK be set up as a CHAPTER,when the Codex Astartes hadn't been introduced yet?The would have to be derived from another legion.10,000 strong,which the Custodes were.The Custodes were similar to SM.IT fits the bill.Early GK halberds had the Storm bolter incorperated into the handle.Just like Custodes spears.

**purplefood**

1) No
2) No
3 No
Other 3?) Also no.

**iproxtaco**

1. Well we know that's wrong. They were trained by ex members of other Legions from simple human psykers. The Custodes were test tube grown, they aren't Astartes.
2. Nope.
3. Again, no. The Grey Knights are all psykers, we know their origins, and the Custodes aren't Astartes.
4. We know the Emperor ordered their creation, and we know how this happened. They didn't emerge organized as a Chapter, the returned 1000 strong, that's all, and they used to be 3000 strong. Typical Mat Ward idiocy.

**1hadhq**

1-4 = no

Grey Knights were founded at the Emperors order.
Space Marine Legions were founded at his order too.
Thats all they got in common.

The Grey Knights have a backstory in their codex. Please read it.
The lost Legions have been part of the 20 Legions at 1st founding.
The Custodes were his bodyguard when the Legions were around. Thus as old as the Legions and not lost.
The Grey knights were rapidly formed ( cheating in time ) and had the chapter structure to fit within the norm of the chapter since they got revealed at 2nd founding. Wouldn't it look weird to have lots of "chapters" around and 1 legion sized formation?
One thing to remember: GK are N° 666 for a reason. Following the procedure of the second founding, just 400 chapters would mean they should have a different number. But they don't. Maybe a hint on the warp and names....also counts for numbers?

**Grey Templar**

Custodes are NOT space marines in any way, shape, or form.

They are, quite simply, Custodes. All thats known is that they are Artificially created. How is not. They are a different type of genetically altered super humans, designed to be the perfect Bodyguards just like the Astartes were created to be the perfect Warriors.

the GKs were founded by the Emperor for the express purpose of countering the threat from the Warp. It is rumored, and all but confirmed by the GK codex, that their Geneseed is based on the Emperor. It is 100% for sure it is not based on any pre-existing Legion. This accounts for the Psychic mastery and genetic purity the chapter exibits. There is a reason the GKs refer to their geneseed as "The Emperor's Gift"

**Deadshot**

Grey Templar wrote:It is rumored, and all but confirmed by the GK codex, that their Geneseed

In

Spoiler:

.it is rumoured that the custodes are closer to the Emperor than Astartes.They were based of the Emperor.Sound familiar?

The custodes are the same build and slightly stronger than marines,but not as strong as primarchs.the Grey Knights are able to take down Primarchs.This seems to me like they are stronger than normal SM,as the Custodes were.However, it took substantual effort,which the Custodes would need top bring one down.Normal marines wouldn't even be ablw to touch them,with or without chaos powers.In the same novel, Corax goes about slaughtering Marines and Possessed like they were naught but bothersome insects.How would a few space marines,because that is what you are saying they are,be able to take down Angron,who was one of the fighty ones,and upgraded with Chaosm powers,with or without 12 Bloodthirsters?They would have to be something stronger than marines,and Custodes fit the bill.

**bedeporter**

They are something stronger than marines. They are all psychic marines with force weapons that are anathema to daemons. They were made to fight chaos spawn and that's why they were able to take down Angron and the Bloodthirsters. Since he was a daemon prince at the time.

edit: grammar.

**Deadshot**

Daemons are immune to force weapons.Basically,they are all weak libbies.

PS-Chaos Spawn aren't Daemons.

**Chowderhead**

Deadshot wrote:Daemons are immune to force weapons.Basically,they are all weak libbies.

PS-Chaos Spawn aren't Daemons.

One: Force weapons rip the soul out of a deamon, killing it's essence forever. Go read Eisenhorn.

Two: Questionable.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:It is rumored, and all but confirmed by the GK codex, that their Geneseed

In

Spoiler:

First Heretic

.it is rumoured that the custodes are closer to the Emperor than Astartes.They were based of the Emperor.Sound familiar?

The custodes are the same build and slightly stronger than marines,but not as strong as primarchs.the Grey Knights are able to take down Primarchs.This seems to me like they are stronger than normal SM,as the Custodes were.However, it took substantual effort,which the Custodes would need top bring one down.Normal marines wouldn't even be ablw to touch them,with or without chaos powers.In the same novel, Corax goes about slaughtering Marines and Possessed like they were naught but bothersome insects.How would a few space marines,because that is what you are saying they are,be able to take down Angron,who was one of the fighty ones,and upgraded with Chaosm powers,with or without 12 Bloodthirsters?They would have to be something stronger than marines,and Custodes fit the bill.

Lexicanum wrote:Much of the Grey Knights history remains in mystery and secrecy or has been purposefully removed from archives. However according to legend, the Grey Knights began as a project during the final days of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor foresaw that the Heresy would likely end at such a great personal cost to himself that he would be prevented from actively defending mankind from the great threat of Chaos and its Daemons. So the Emperor set in motion a plan to form a defence against such evil. Malcador the Sigilite, closest of the Emperor's servants, was sent to search across the Imperium for men suitable to rise to such a burden.10 p.6-7
Malcador found twelve worthy champions; four were lords and administrators, and eight were Space Marines (Garviel Loken, Iacton Qruze, Nathaniel Garro, Librarian Tyloss Rubio, Captain Varren, Janus21 22 23), some hailing from Legions that had turned traitor. The Emperor surveyed the chosen recruits and granted his approval and consent to proceed with the project. So the recruits split ways to go off towards separate tasks; the four lords ventured off to lay the framework of the Inquisition, whilst the Space Marines and Malcador traveled to Saturn's moon of Titan.10 p.6-7
Titan, through Malcador's sorcerous means, had been hidden away from the ravages of the Horus Heresy. When they arrived they found a Fortress-monastery already fully prepared and stocked with everything necessary to create a new army of Space Marines including supplies of gene-seed, which is suspected to have been taken from the Emperor directly, and all the necessary armaments. The fortress was also already populated with hundreds upon hundreds of suitable recruits from across the Galaxy. Some were raw and untrained, whilst others were selected in secret from among the ranks of loyalist Legions. This new army would be a Chapter - a smaller, tighter brotherhood of Space Marines than a Legion. Malcador could no longer remain and thus he appointed Janus, one of the eight original Space Marines, to be the Grey Knights leader and take the title of Supreme Grand Master. Before leaving, Malcador cast his greatest enchantment yet; he hid Titan away from Horus in the most unlikely of places, inside the Warp itself. Titan was protected by Macro-Geller fields and sigilic rites whilst the final battles of the Heresy took place in Real Space.10 p.6-7
When Titan eventually returned, the Second Founding was taking place. Whilst in the Warp, time had passed at a greater rate for Titan and so it had emerged not with the original eight Space Marines and their raw recruits, but with a full Chapter of one thousand fully trained Battle-Brothers. The Second Founding was being directed by the newly formed Inquisition under the control of the same lords who Malcador had selected years before. So they secretly included the Grey Knights amongst the growing list of new Chapters, designating them Chapter 666, despite there being barely 400 Chapters commissioned at the time. The Grey Knights, different from all the other new Chapters, were embedded within the Inquisition to serve as the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus to fight against all things Daemonic.10 p.6-7

**ZacktheChaosChild**

From Lexicanum concerning Grey Knights:

Much of the Grey Knights history remains in mystery and secrecy or has been purposefully removed from archives. However according to legend, the Grey Knights began as a project during the final days of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor foresaw that the Heresy would likely end at such a great personal cost to himself that he would be prevented from actively defending mankind from the great threat of Chaos and its Daemons. So the Emperor set in motion a plan to form a defence against such evil. Malcador the Sigilite, closest of the Emperor's servants, was sent to search across the Imperium for men suitable to rise to such a burden.10 p.6-7

From Lexicanum concerning Custodes:

The Adeptus Custodes were known originally as the Legio Custodes. The original Custodians were the first genetically and psychologically altered warriors created by the Emperor during the Terran Unification Wars. They served as the Emperor's personal bodyguard.4 The genetic enhancement that forms the Custodes is different from and predates that developed to create Space Marines.3 p.29
During the Great Crusade, the Custodes always kept a contingent with the Emperor for his protection, but also travelled individually as envoys. Since the Emperor's internment in the Golden Throne, the Adeptus Custodes have taken a more limited role as protectors of the Imperial Palace.
Originally, they were equipped with the best power armour of the age, and had access to the same type of equipment and weapons as had the Space Marine Legions. Equipment which was characteristic of the Custodes would influence the equipment of the later Grey Knights. After the confinement of the Emperor within the Golden Throne, the Custodes abandoned, among other things, the use of their armour, and their traditional colour of red was changed to black.

It's pretty safe to say that neither are actually the missing Legions.

**bedeporter**

nemesis force weapons have the daemonbane special rule because they are designed to kill daemons. So whilst daemons may be immune to forceweapons they're not immune to daemonbane. Also, sorry for the misunderstanding, I meant the spawn of the immaterium rather than the unit chaos spawn.

**Grey Templar**

Nemisis Force Weapons are force weapons designed to kill daemons.

they do so by being so utterly clean and poisonous to Warp things. not through the channeling of warp energy.

**Deadshot**

Through the representatonal Daemonbane.Daemons are immune to ID,which is what I was pointing out.

I will drop this for now,but If I find new connections

"I'll be back"

**purplefood**

Deadshot wrote:Through the representatonal Daemonbane.Daemons are immune to ID,which is what I was pointing out.

I will drop this for now,but If I find new connections

"I'll be back"

You won't find new connections...

**Deadshot**

Maybe,but with 6th ed coming soon,that is new background,so maybe I will.

**iproxtaco**

Deadshot wrote:Daemons are immune to force weapons.Basically,they are all weak libbies.

PS-Chaos Spawn aren't Daemons.

Lolwut? Daemons are immune to Force Weapons? Why the feth do you think the Grey Knights use them? They're very effective, they cut the link between the Warp and material realm, they banish Daemons.

Second point though is debatable. They're swelled with Warp energy, they could be Daemons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:Maybe,but with 6th ed coming soon,that is new background,so maybe I will.

No, you wont. There's no connection bar their equipment, and that's tenuous at best, and there's not going to be a connection randomly created out of nowhere.

**Just Dave**

Coolyo294 wrote:Custodes aren't Space Marines.

English Assassin wrote:1) Were they indeed?
2) Oh really?
3) See 1.
4) Have you even read the Grey Knights' Codex?

purplefood wrote:1) No
2) No
3 No
Other 3?) Also no.

iproxtaco wrote:1. Well we know that's wrong. They were trained by ex members of other Legions from simple human psykers. The Custodes were test tube grown, they aren't Astartes.
2. Nope.
3. Again, no. The Grey Knights are all psykers, we know their origins, and the Custodes aren't Astartes.
4. We know the Emperor ordered their creation, and we know how this happened. They didn't emerge organized as a Chapter, the returned 1000 strong, that's all, and they used to be 3000 strong. Typical Mat Ward idiocy.

1hadhq wrote:1-4 = no

Grey Templar wrote:Custodes are NOT space marines in any way, shape, or form.

...

Deadshot wrote:I will drop this for now,but If I find new connections

"I'll be back"

**Deadshot**

iproxtaco wrote:
Deadshot wrote:Daemons are immune to force weapons.Basically,they are all weak libbies.

PS-Chaos Spawn aren't Daemons.

Lolwut? Daemons are immune to Force Weapons? Why the feth do you think the Grey Knights use them? They're very effective, they cut the link between the Warp and material realm, they banish Daemons.

Second point though is debatable. They're swelled with Warp energy, they could be Daemons.

In game terms,Daemons are immune to ID,so they would be immune to force weapons.It is the silver and iron blade/head/staff that makes it deadly.

Chaos spawn do not count as Daemons.In game,they do not count as Daemons,so in the fluff based on the game,it makes no sense for them to be Daemons.

**Coolyo294**

Deadshot wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Deadshot wrote:Daemons are immune to force weapons.Basically,they are all weak libbies.

PS-Chaos Spawn aren't Daemons.

Lolwut? Daemons are immune to Force Weapons? Why the feth do you think the Grey Knights use them? They're very effective, they cut the link between the Warp and material realm, they banish Daemons.

Second point though is debatable. They're swelled with Warp energy, they could be Daemons.

In game terms,Daemons are immune to ID,so they would be immune to force weapons.It is the silver and iron blade/head/staff that makes it deadly.

Chaos spawn do not count as Daemons.In game,they do not count as Daemons,so in the fluff based on the game,it makes no sense for them to be Daemons.

Again, rules =/= fluff.

**Deadshot**

Fluff comes from rules,so they can't be Daemons,but not be Daemons.

**Henners91**

In the second HH book it's established that the Custodes pre-date the Space Marines.

Plus Lexicanum'll tell you that they're created by a completely different (and much longer) process.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshot wrote:Fluff comes from rules,so they can't be Daemons,but not be Daemons.

That is debatable.

**BluntmanDC**

Deadshot wrote:Fluff comes from rules,so they can't be Daemons,but not be Daemons.

In GW you will find that rules come after fluff, this is pointed out in the standard bearer aticle from last month's WD and many other interviews with GW creatives.

As it is already pointed out by so many others:

1. GK are specially processed SM (made using only psykers, and filtered through one of the most aggressive filtering systems in IoM recruitment) but at the end of the day they are SM that 'reproduce as SM.
2. The custodes are not SM they are not made like SM so therefor cannot be GK for the above reason.
3. The custodes predate SM
4. The 'missing' legions (they are only missing to the reader, the Emperor and the rest of the primarches all know what happened to them) are removed from play before the Horus Heresy.
5. the custodes and GK have completely different fighting styles so it makes little sence that hey are related, or one would be used to form the other.

It should be clear by now that your hypothesis makes very little sence with all the info that is available.

**Azza007**

I think the OP needs to drop this theory of his as there is no evidence supporting it and plenty against as has been shown.

**iproxtaco**

Deadshot wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Deadshot wrote:Daemons are immune to force weapons.Basically,they are all weak libbies.

PS-Chaos Spawn aren't Daemons.

Lolwut? Daemons are immune to Force Weapons? Why the feth do you think the Grey Knights use them? They're very effective, they cut the link between the Warp and material realm, they banish Daemons.

Second point though is debatable. They're swelled with Warp energy, they could be Daemons.

In game terms,Daemons are immune to ID,so they would be immune to force weapons.It is the silver and iron blade/head/staff that makes it deadly.

Fluff=/=Game rules. Force Weapons are powerful due to the psychic ability of the wielder. All Grey Knights are incredibly powerful psykers, their Nemesis weapons are extremely effective against them. Rules have no place in this discussion, as its the background forum, and a question that's specifically about the background.

Chaos spawn do not count as Daemons.In game,they do not count as Daemons,so in the fluff based on the game,it makes no sense for them to be Daemons.

How many times do you have to be told that Fluff=/= Game Rules before you start believing it?

**Grey Templar**

Chaos Spawn aren't daemons because, in the fluff, they are simply mortals that have recieved too many Mutations as gifts and have lost their mind as a result.

Daemon Princes, on the other hand, are daemons that were once mortals, but were elevated to Daemonhood(becoming a true daemon)

**Deadshot**

Azza007 wrote:I think the OP needs to drop this theory of his as there is no evidence supporting it and plenty against as has been shown.

Deadshot wrote:I will drop this for now

I tried!

It supporsts itself in my mind.Good enough for me.

**iproxtaco**

You must have a strange mind then, one that hates using the space bar after commas and full stops and creates random theories with no basis of fact, and believes the rules have a place in the discussion of the background.