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This just landed on TTGN:

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2011/08/28/50021/

The Daemon Hordes box contains a unit of eight fleaudian and demonic troops (Berserkr or Legionari, you will have to choose upon assembly). This axe bearer unit can either be quick on their feet, or hide behind their shield. While registering this kit you will be able to choose either a unit of Berserkr or a unit of Legionari.

I thought they went the way of the Dodo!

Good luck to them for keeping on, but I don't know anybody who is even remotely interested in that game.

Oddly, they will sell you 8 cavalry for almost the same price as 8 infantry. I don't like the style, but if I did I'd be scoring their Cavalry reinforcement.

4 knights, 4 mounted squires and a sorceress for $33 CAN. Can't beat that with a stick.

I think their models are pretty good but they had some funky play it with a computer rules or something like that. I bet if they reworked the game to be more traditional style they'd have more luck and interest.

I don't know much about the game, but the idea of the computerization is... interesting, but it was probably not executed very well.

Seem to recall the news that the models were being ressurected.
Think there has either been a buyer or the administrators are keeping things ticking over

Edit
William Wallace was released back in May this year
The web site is showing the computer interface thingy on the Gameplay pages

Did you just ask and answer a question... in the title of your thread?

Nice one!

Sadly they are still around.

I'm most surprised that everything they have is plastic, that is a huge investment that didnt go anywhere

Yup very surprised they're still tossing out kits.

Surprised me too when I read that at TTGN.

Anyone who wants generic Priests/Monks should pick up the Ex Illis kit. I converted mine into Imperial Preachers and they're great.

Yep, they found a new buyer.

But really, their concept is utterly flawed, for reasons stated previously... it's basically a case of miniatures being sold with DRM.

You don't get given access to the rules for the miniature and can't use it in a game unless you have your own unique passcode that came with the box. Additionally, if the servers for the game ever go down, you can't play the game. Not only do you need a PC to play, you also need an internet connection. So, if the company goes bankrupt, you can't play anymore.

If that doesn't throw up all sorts of warning bells to not get invested I don't know what will.

So, basically, it boils down to buying the models for use in other game systems.

I picked up a pair of their mangonels, they are good, cheap, generic hard-plastic stone throwers. Using them with my dwarf army since it's much better than paying GW for a couple of finecast grudge throwers that basically look exactly the same.


It's such a shame, really... they have actually produced more plastic sprues than mantic has, and some of them are quite nice models, there has been a *lot* of money put into this effort... if only the owner had actually understood the slightest thing about the market they were entering and went with something we actually want to see as opposed to being overly convinced that their newfangled "web 2.0 social network cloud-based wargame with DRM" concept was really as good in reality as it sounded in their head.

It's really frustrating to see a really cool set of models and background (Vatican vs. Daemons in 1500) wasted in this way. As far as their method of production goes, it's awesome... tons of multi-part hard plastic sprues, doing everything right that Rackham did wrong with regards to the miniatures themselves.

If the company is to survive, then IMO, they need to completely remove the DRM, unlock all units for use in the game, create an offline version of the software, and optimize it for tablets so that the computer element of things can be reduced to a simple gaming-aid, like dice currrently are, rather than being an overbearing force on the game.

As it stands, the game is just a computer game that you play, and then move your models around on the table to represent what is happening on the computer. The focus is all on the computer side of things, not the miniatures, where it should be.

Anyway, judging them purely by the miniatures for use in other games... beastmen players might want to pick up their new demonic hordes box:



Would be perfect for alternate pig or bird beastmen! Weapons are small, but they are regular hard plastic, so replacing the hands with spares from an ungor kit shouldn't be a problem.

scarletsquig wrote:if only the owner had actually understood the slightest thing about the market they were entering and went with something we actually want to see as opposed to being overly convinced that their newfangled "web 2.0 social network cloud-based wargame with DRM" concept was really as good in reality as it sounded in their head.

I think they understood the market they were entering quite well: one in which people torrent the rulebooks and other printed materials, and buy the models from Ebay or cut-rate resellers (or use proxies). Their system works terrifically well to combat those issues.

Of course, they swung the pendulum way too far in their favor without offering anything significantly more to end-users to compensate for their draconian restrictions.

Those are obvious concerns of the producers... but how else does one deal with that? The other ways is Mantic's but Mantic's approach of a free rulebook, is effectively a devalued one... to never invest so much time, energy, or money that people copying or stealing the rulebook is ever a loss. That isn't exactly a viable option for a software based approach by a small company.

aka_mythos wrote:Those are obvious concerns of the producers... but how else does one deal with that?

By making the hybrid system provide a superior product. Ex-Illis's game handles things like unit movement worse than either tabletop games or computer games. It's like a seaplane that can't fly and can't float.

Free rulebook = ability to make frequent updates to balance and fine-tune all the units, making sure that nothing is underpowered or overpowered.

Free rulebook = ability to make use of public beta tests.

Free rulebook = lower start-up cost for end user

End result is that mantic's current army lists are very well-balanced, free of the overpowered and useless units that plague GW books over time as the metagame and rules edition change.

These benefits all apply to Ex Illis as well, and they exist whether or not DRM is there at all. Bastion needs to be promoting these strengths, not applying major negatives to the potential customers who they expect to be paying their wages.

DRM brings nothing to the table other than a severe annoyance for players who have to:

- Keep entering 16-digit hexadecimal codes to activate units.
- Risk having a game killed halfway through if something happens to the internet connection.
- Be unable to access the actual core rules of the game to understand what is going on instead of the computer crunching all the numbers itself and spitting out the results.

If I have to roll 2d6 for something, I can work out the percentage odds on that, with Ex Illis you can't, the core mechanics are all hidden and locked down to prevent people from stealing them.

It's the same old argument that applies to heavily-DRM'ed PC games. I also refuse to buy those. Not because I'm a filthy pirate, I happily buy my PC games, but because it does nothing other than be a massive inconvenience to honest paying customers. It's like those unskippable 2-minute long "YOU WOULDN'T STEAL A CAR" adverts embedded into the front of DVDs, that people who purchase their movies are forced to sit through, whereas the pirates do not.

DRM is nothing other than a massive pain in the ass, the music industry figured that out a long time ago, and is now in a state of recovery as digital sales and subscription services bring in a lot of profit.

Say what you like about Steve Jobs, he sure had the right idea when itunes got big enough for him to be able to state "If it's got DRM, it's not welcome in our store"... itunes sales massively increased after this change.

I do not want the horrible concept of DRM applied to wargaming.

DRM is a pus-bloated old mule that needs hauling out into a shed and 2 slugs straight to the brainpan.

aka_mythos wrote:Those are obvious concerns of the producers... but how else does one deal with that?

I wouldn't. Pirates are gonna pirate. Go the Stardock route - make as good a game as possible with 100% of your efforts.

DRM didn't work for music, it didn't work for movies, it's not working for video games, and it will never work for tabletop games, unless you're giving it away for free.

AlexHolker wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Those are obvious concerns of the producers... but how else does one deal with that?

By making the hybrid system provide a superior product. Ex-Illis's game handles things like unit movement worse than either tabletop games or computer games. It's like a seaplane that can't fly and can't float.

Well I'm not trying to pass judgement on their product.

scarletsquig wrote:Free rulebook = ability to make frequent updates to balance and fine-tune all the units, making sure that nothing is underpowered or overpowered.

Free rulebook = ability to make use of public beta tests.

Free rulebook = lower start-up cost for end user

End result is that mantic's current army lists are very well-balanced, free of the overpowered and useless units that plague GW books over time as the metagame and rules edition change.

These benefits all apply to Ex Illis as well, and they exist whether or not DRM is there at all. Bastion needs to be promoting these strengths, not applying major negatives to the potential customers who they expect to be paying their wages.

As I said a devalued product. I'm not saying the Ex Illis approach is the answer, but included, free, updated rules describe a number of the Wizkids games that are no longer with us so it really can't be considered an end just a means. I think Ex Illis is silly for trying to make a tabletop game that is even a little less tabletop, but its a novel approach.

Wizkids were also a company that directly tied their rules to their specific models... only in a physical manner rather than a digital one.

If you're making comparisons, I'd say mage knight is closer to Ex Illis than it is to Mantic as far as that goes.

Second-hand market was not an issue for them at all, since their whole system of random blind-buys relied on it to function.

I was just making the point that open, free, and easily accessable and updated rules don't solve all of a companies problems. Mantic's success isn't solely for its rules, its because its an all round more economical alternative. If GW did its rules like Mantic it wouldn't see a surge of players, because its still a pricey system. Its a strategy that works for some and not for others but it isn't a silver bullet like some claim it to be.

Rules issues aside, how does one even start? Is there a website that sells the models? I'm definitely not interested in playing, but if the models are nice enough, I might pick some up.

scarletsquig, good call on the mangonels. I want to order a pair of them but the website is so goddamned ganky I am having extreme difficulty.

If they can't get their storefront working reliably I think they have more problems than all those DRM concerns...

Edit: So I got through the clunky and annoying payment options section (and I gotta pay with paypal? Lame). And now they're saying they'll send me a quote? What?

Argh.

The few people I have directed to this game, purely out of amusement, agree that the mechanic is not feasible and there is no way they are interested. Personally, I just cannot see how they even thought this was remotely feasible - activating units via a code you have bought so you can actually use them. Dumbest idea of all time. It deserves to be killed with fire.

Had a chat with the FLGS about this, they still won't stock it. This is a game you can run without the minis. It's a turn-based PC game where you need to buy boxes of "merch" to get the code for more units in game.

I'm actively trying to give them my money and I can't because their webstore sucks.

So, that's pretty impressive right there.

Da Boss wrote:I'm actively trying to give them my money and I can't because their webstore sucks.

So, that's pretty impressive right there.

Do you know any UK sites selling them?

Typing ex illis here in the states has gotten me a few places (some with 50% off! Never heard of Funagain Games though so dont know how trustworthy they are)

Hmmm, some of the minis arent bad, could have use in other games. Prices arent bad either.

They really need to work on the web store. Even browsing it is a bit of a pain.

Even worse: If you buy dual-purpose minis from them you can use only one of the two codes.

Well the only thing I was remotely interested was the plastic board since the minis was not to my liking and the game looked like a big mess mixing laptops with tabletops mehhhh... Remembering Exillis ways of talking to their public ( they should write a manual of "how to totally alienate most wargammers in one paragraph" ) I think they will struggle a bit to get back into sales. But hey good luck to them I hope they learned their lesson.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Even worse: If you buy dual-purpose minis from them you can use only one of the two codes.

Ugh, that's so dirty. It sounds like something GW would do.

But yeah, needless to say: Ex Illis, you're doing it wrong. lol

Duncan_Idaho wrote:Even worse: If you buy dual-purpose minis from them you can use only one of the two codes.

Maybe they're worried the magnets will screw up your iPad?