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This may sound really dumb, but how exactly does a DoA Blood Angel list deal with a horde army? I have yet to play against a horde army with my DoA army so I'm not really sure what to expect.

For reference here is the list I use:

HQ:
Librarian + Jump Pack = 125 points
- Honor Guard + Jump Packs + 3 meltaguns + Blood Champion = 215 points

Elites:
2 Sanguinary Priest + 2 Jumpacks = 150 points

Troops:
10 ASM + 2 Meltaguns + Powerfist = 235 points
10 ASM + 2 Meltaguns + Powerfist = 235 points
10 ASM + 2 Meltaguns + Powerfist = 235 points
10 ASM + 2 Meltaguns + Powerfist = 235 points

Fast Attack:
5 Vanguard Vets + 5 Jump Packs + Powerfist = 190 points
5 Vanguard Vets + 5 Jump Packs + Powerfist = 190 points
5 Vanguard Vets + 5 Jump Packs + Powerfist = 190 points


Total: 2000

Now I don't have any flamers in the list because DoA is all about messing up mechanized armies. Pretty much all of my army will munch up any small MSU squad, but how would they deal against 30 orks or a full squad of Termaguants? Would my Blood Angels have the upperhand? Also should I add in 2 flamers to the 4th Assault Marine Squad and the use the last 10 points on the Honor Guard to give them a 4th melta?

Here's what I was thinking in order to deal with hordes. Surround a mob of 30 boys with 2 squads of Blood Angels after shooting into them with both squads. 20 Marines should have no problem with Orks if my thinking is correct. Of course there is always the Power Klaw to worry about. =(

Against horde, your strength is still your deepstrike re rolls.
Take out one side of the board, with the exception of meltas coming down to take out key targets like landraiders.

I would surely take some flamers. I have nothing but luck spamming templates. Some disagree but it has always worked. Then again you always have to have some stopping power, regardless of the army so the meltas are good. Playing hard to get with the orks is key too. Rapid fire when you have the chance but the risk of getting mobbed is never good. Everyone thinks this is wrong but yet again it works for me. I take numbers and let the orks come to me. You got a baal predator to utilize and a tank that can lay down flame throwers like a boss. That's something to keep in mind

Texas Instrument wrote:Against horde, your strength is still your deepstrike re rolls.
Take out one side of the board, with the exception of meltas coming down to take out key targets like landraiders.

A landraider is not part of any hordes army that I would know of. Unless you mean targets that have AV14 which yes that is what I would do.

XCom wrote:I would surely take some flamers. I have nothing but luck spamming templates. Some disagree but it has always worked. Then again you always have to have some stopping power, regardless of the army so the meltas are good. Playing hard to get with the orks is key too. Rapid fire when you have the chance but the risk of getting mobbed is never good. Everyone thinks this is wrong but yet again it works for me. I take numbers and let the orks come to me. You got a baal predator to utilize and a tank that can lay down flame throwers like a boss. That's something to keep in mind

I can't Rapid Fire with a DoA army. The way its built is to have no Rapid Fire weapons..and Blood Angels don't like Rapid Fire weapons anyways since you can't assault afterwards. I would use a Baal Predator, but I used up all of my Fast Attack slots for what is a complete infantry army. If this were Razorspam I wouldn't be so concerned with it since I'd just throw Assault Cannons and Plasmaguns in that list.

It really really depends on the Horde army. For example, Foot Guard is completely different from Green Tide/Kan Wall. Foot Guard will be decimated by DoA, while Green Tide/Kan Wall can put up a fight.

You should consider changing the 4th squad to Flamers. Your list is currently tailored toward vehicle heavy lists. Or, try having 2 squads of Flamers and 2 squads of Meltas, that way you have the power of redundancy.

As you know, never, ever give Orks the charge. So this means you need proper placement when you come in onto the board. In fact, consider not deep striking the entire army and just footslog (well... fly) up! In addition, the type of Ork mob really determines how hard they'll hit you back. If it's Sluggas, without a charge, they'll barely kill you as you laugh off S3 with a 3+ save and FNP. Shootas are more to worry about because their volume of shots favors them due to weight of dice. In regards to Nobs, they have base 3 attacks at WS4. They're also base S8. Chances are, you'll lose only 1-2 Marines per Nob. The key thing you have on your side is weight of S5 attacks at I5. Per squad, you have 25 I5 attacks assuming you can get all of the models in range of combat. So that means 12-13 will hit, and 7-8 will wound, saving most likely 1. These numbers will improve with the squad with the Librarian due to Unleash Rage. Now, adding shooting into the mix, there will be about 5 hits, with 2-3 kills. With the Meltas, 1 should hit and kill. That means with 1 squad of 10 Marines, on average you should kill 10-12 Orks.

Let's change that up a little and assume you had Flamers instead.

Say you got 24 hits with 2 Flamers (Yeah, kind of unrealistic). That's 12 dead Orks. All of a sudden they don't become that bad, especially when you factor in the rest of the squad's Bolt Pistols. This effect is multiplied against Gaunts or Guardsmen as they're T3. Things look much better in your end.

Just a place to get you started.

Furioso Dreads are pretty excellent versus hordes. Against weakened units, they will wipe them out fast, and against stronger units they will tarpit while the rest of your army whittles down the rest of theirs. And Drop Pods can get locator beacons to really put the hurt on with Vanguard Vets doing a heroic intervention.

Also, Blood Angel Vindicators are crazy effective, being Fast, especially against hordes. Between Vanguard vets and Honor Guard, you have a lot of expensive veteran CC units, so I'd hazard that you could find 300-350 points for a pair of dreads + pods or Vindicators.

You don't have to Deep Strike.

Consider moving, then shooting, then assaulting.

A flamer squad would probably put you in good stead against 90% of armies. They'll help control the board by forcing units to spread out - which makes multi-charging big blobs easier. They'll likely make it easier to wipe out plasma/melta/ML squads on the turn you land. They'll let you inflict painful casualties on the squad climbing out of the transport your Meltas just nuked.

Well, I played once vs. Nids - the battle report is here at Dakka somewhere. Hordish units can be taken on with flamers. For this, I equipped my HG with 4 flamers. The other basic problem are MCs like Trygons. A Trygon can eat a Tactical/Assault Marine unit alive. For this, I've integrated a Hammernator unit.

Good to know that the general consensus is that at least a squad with 2 flamers will greatly help against any horde army and also that not Deep Striking my army is a good idea which I agree with.

Wuestenfux what do you mean by a Hammernator unit?

Red Comet wrote:Good to know that the general consensus is that at least a squad with 2 flamers will greatly help against any horde army and also that not Deep Striking my army is a good idea which I agree with.

Wuestenfux what do you mean by a Hammernator unit?

Assault Termies with th/ss.

You put in TH/SS Terminators in a DoA army?

I use them, when I use 1 stormraven. 5 TH/SS termies, chaplain + priest puts a hurt on things!

Red Comet wrote:You put in TH/SS Terminators in a DoA army?

Sounds strange and contradict the theory, but how do you deal with an MC like a Trygon?

woodbok wrote:I use them, when I use 1 stormraven. 5 TH/SS termies, chaplain + priest puts a hurt on things!

Yeah, but in a DoA list it defeats the purpose.

wuestenfux wrote:

Red Comet wrote:You put in TH/SS Terminators in a DoA army?

Sounds strange and contradict the theory, but how do you deal with an MC like a Trygon?

Meltaguns, and Powerfists come to mind tbh. Would a Librarian's Force Weapon kill it? (I've never played against nids so I'm not sure if that could go off). I'd rather avoid getting into an assault with that thing though.

MCs can be nasty to deal with. A Trygon can eat half of a 10 men Marine unit before it strikes back. It will also eat a Librarian when he comes in btb unless he carries a storm shield.

Force Weapons would work, however as wuesten has mentioned, there are quite a few MCs that strike on initiative (Like a Trygon) or before the Librarian can even swing (Like a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant). It'd also be hard to wound them as well considering the Librarian is only S4. So relying on ID through that method does not favor your end.


The best answer you have in terms of staying to true DoA (ie infantry themed) are Devastator squads. Load up on MLs and you can keep the infantry theme. MLs are the best weapon for fixing the issue of MCs and Hordes, because as you know, they fire both Frag and Krak Missiles. The reason why I mention these is because the other answers do not fit the theme of DoA (such as fielding TH/SS Termies in a Stormraven) or do not fit in a TAC list such as a Furiouso and Vindicator (in addition to not being worthy in DoA).

AresX8 wrote:Force Weapons would work, however as wuesten has mentioned, there are quite a few MCs that strike on initiative (Like a Trygon) or before the Librarian can even swing (Like a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant). It'd also be hard to wound them as well considering the Librarian is only S4. So relying on ID through that method does not favor your end.

Then give them sword of sanguinius. Strength 10 force weapons.

AresX8 wrote:Force Weapons would work, however as wuesten has mentioned, there are quite a few MCs that strike on initiative (Like a Trygon) or before the Librarian can even swing (Like a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant). It'd also be hard to wound them as well considering the Librarian is only S4. So relying on ID through that method does not favor your end.


The best answer you have in terms of staying to true DoA (ie infantry themed) are Devastator squads. Load up on MLs and you can keep the infantry theme. MLs are the best weapon for fixing the issue of MCs and Hordes, because as you know, they fire both Frag and Krak Missiles. The reason why I mention these is because the other answers do not fit the theme of DoA (such as fielding TH/SS Termies in a Stormraven) or do not fit in a TAC list such as a Furiouso and Vindicator (in addition to not being worthy in DoA).

I agree on most points, but Devastators seem like a terrible fit to me. Drop podding them in still means they can't fire the turn they arrive, and they can't move from that spot either, really. And starting them on the board leaves the enemy a single unit to concentrate on for multiple turns. For all-infantry, they are in-theme, but for arriving with guns hot and moving quickly around the board, they don't contribute much to the overall synergy.

Furiosos drop podding in, on the other hand, inserts a tough unit right where you want it, that can open fire immediately, and can then assault with the best of them and survive anything but a strong monstrous creature in CC. Also the available locator beacon on the drop pod makes the DoA troops arrive more accurately, and drop pod assault guarantees it will be in place on turn 1 before your deep strikers arrive.

Furiousos are not a good idea for a few reasons:

- Coming in on turn 1 before the Assault Marines means that the entirety of your opponent's army can focus on the Dread. You're basically throwing away points.
- It cannot assault the turn it comes down from the drop pod.

Sword of Sanguinius won't really do much unless I take a Librarian with Terminator armor. That makes no sense under the context of a DoA army.

As long as Furiosos cannot assault from a Drop Pod then that idea isn't so great. They'll just sit there for a turn and absorb all of the anti-tank. It will become a waste of points as AresX8 pointed out. Devastators are actually good, but it changes the way the entire army is run because you'd drop Vanguard Veterans and start with everything on the board in cover. It would be interesting to do that, but a list with Devastators has its own weaknesses just like how a DoA list has its own strength and weaknesses. For instance, DoA can't handle Termies or MC's. Does that make it a bad list? Not at all, but it does have its limits.

This problem is why I started a mixed DoA army. Originally I had a shooting base with Devs and Dreads, then had mech a mech base with Baals and Vindicators, then tried bikes with locator beacons, now I use Storm Ravens as my base.

If you don't mind a mixed list the most effective builds for me were, in lower point games, Mech. In higher point games Ravens.

woodbok wrote:

AresX8 wrote:Force Weapons would work, however as wuesten has mentioned, there are quite a few MCs that strike on initiative (Like a Trygon) or before the Librarian can even swing (Like a Daemon Prince or Hive Tyrant). It'd also be hard to wound them as well considering the Librarian is only S4. So relying on ID through that method does not favor your end.

Then give them sword of sanguinius. Strength 10 force weapons.

Well, this may not help either, because a Trygon will eventually hit back before the Libby can make a psychic test (only if he's upgraded to an Epistolary).

Trygons are expensive. Shoot it with 4 meltas then charge it with 2 power fists. Will probably only lose 3 marines in the process.

Multi charge wrecks hordes. If 30 assault marines multi charge 90 orks its over for the orks. If each assault squad can average a combat res of 5 the total combat res should be about 15. A combat res of 15 would wound 45 boys because of fearless. No need for flamers.

schadenfreude wrote:Trygons are expensive. Shoot it with 4 meltas then charge it with 2 power fists. Will probably only lose 3 marines in the process.

Multi charge wrecks hordes. If 30 assault marines multi charge 90 orks its over for the orks. If each assault squad can average a combat res of 5 the total combat res should be about 15. A combat res of 15 would wound 45 boys because of fearless. No need for flamers.

In view of the Trygon, this beast can kill 6 (or 7 on the charge) Marines with rerolls to hit and to wound.
Orks fight an uphill battle when it comes to combat resolution, that's right.

I think the solution to the trygon is a HG with plasmas or a hg with meltas and supporting fire.

Acardia wrote:I think the solution to the trygon is a HG with plasmas or a hg with meltas and supporting fire.

In fact, rapid-firing plasma guns could be the answer. An HG can stack of these weapons, making 8 shots, 6 or 5 hits on average, and 5 or 4 wounds. So stripping 2 wounds from support units would kill that beast.

at 225 you get 4 plasma with built in FNP, I've been running this squad with a fist (250) in my mech list and in all my all infantry list. You are right it can't assault after firing, but if supported well it will be useful, The fist in the unit gets used sometime, but not always. I'm not 100% sure it will stay.

As a Nid player, I'd be very worried if I had my 6W MC's in play and saw a plasma-heavy HG squad.

And it's not like such a squad isn't a threat to mech armies. 8 mobile s7 shots are going to put the willies up rear armour.

lindsay40k wrote:As a Nid player, I'd be very worried if I had my 6W MC's in play and saw a plasma-heavy HG squad.

And it's not like such a squad isn't a threat to mech armies. 8 mobile s7 shots are going to put the willies up rear armour.

And vice versa, a BA player would be very worried about several 6W MC's, not just one.