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Made in us
Boosting Space Marine Biker



The Halo Stars

As the name says, I am looking for the reasons people think the captain is not worth his points unless you give him ONE spacific load out (relic blade, bike, storm shield, ect.).

About 3000 
   
Made in gb
Agile Revenant Titan





Scotland

Put simply, the buffs available from the Librarian just outweigh what the Captain can bring to the table.

The Captain isn't a bad choice, just not as good as the Librarian.

Iranna.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/06 21:37:42


 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw




Stephens City, VA

Iranna wrote:Put simply, the buffs available from the Librarian just outweigh what the Captain can bring to the table.

The Captain isn't a bad choice, just not as good as the Librarian.

Irrana.


Absolutely correct, they each have pros and cons

Libby
Force weapon
Psychic Powers
Pyschic Hood

No invul save
only 2 wounds

Captain
Higher init
Higher WS
Invul Save
3 wounds

Really GW a chainsword ...
and a bolt pistol
same price as a Libby

There are others of course, and the Captain takes his role in the front lines in Close Combat, where the Librarian is best close/midrange depending on powers taken.

   
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

jdjamesdean@mail.com hit the nail on the head. It's just not worth it compared to the librarian, and the special characters are just a bit more expensive and a lot better if you want a fighting character.

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Aye, Captains are not "bad", for that matter neither are Chaplains...but the other options are just flat out Better in terms of utility, or for pure beatsticking point for point.

I could have a captain with bike, relic blade, and SS...Or I could spend 20-30 more points and get something like...oh...Vulkan. Or Lysander.

Same thing happens with Chaplains. Same cost as a librarian, nowhere near the support ability. Even in his niche, if you want a beatstick chappy, Cassius is cheaper than a terminator chaplain and beats more <CENSORED>
   
Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion






It also has to do with the strategy element. TH/SS terminators are so good and cheap that any beatstick character feels weak by comparison. A Librarian is a force multiplier, making nearby units stronger. I find the force multiplier strategy to be better for SM than the increased localized power brought by a captain over librarian.

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Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

The main reason is his base stuff. Chapter Masters and Captains come with Pitols and Chainsword. All the other HQs get Power Weapons, whether it is a Crozius, Force Staff, or a pair of Servo Arms, for the same points, and with an upgrade or 2 in the Master's case.

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Blackwood, New Jersey

Just to add, the reason that the specific loadouts are sometimes worth it is that they fit a specialty army. The loadout you listed would be for a bike list, as the Captain on bike is considered a better buy than Khan on a bike.

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Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

Captains on bikes are essentially there to allow you to make a White Scars theme. No other reason.

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Made in us
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant





Almentia

Null Zone alone makes the Libby better than the captain.

 
   
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Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

forcing people to reroll invulnerable savews? No way. Sure against Termy ARMOUR and Iron Haloes, but who fields those when you have SS?

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Blackwood, New Jersey

Deadshot wrote:Captains on bikes are essentially there to allow you to make a White Scars theme. No other reason.


Because White Scars are the only chapter that specializes in bikes, right? The reason is so you can have a biker army. White Scars have nothing to do with it.

Also, the captain's base gear has almost nothing to do with why he isn't optimal, and certainly is not the 'main' reason.

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Made in ca
Angered Reaver Arena Champion






Deadshot, I'm not sure what you are saying there. Could you please clarify that statement?

this one:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadshot wrote:forcing people to reroll invulnerable savews? No way. Sure against Termy ARMOUR and Iron Haloes, but who fields those when you have SS?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/09/06 22:26:21


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Blackwood, New Jersey

Deadshot... SS gives you a 3+ invulnerable save. The existence of Storm Shields is WHY Null Zone is so good.

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Stephens City, VA

Deadshot wrote:forcing people to reroll invulnerable savews? No way. Sure against Termy ARMOUR and Iron Haloes, but who fields those when you have SS?


It's the "best" psychic power in the Codex;SM

   
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On moon miranda.

The other HQ's give you more than just killy power, they add utility. Most of the SC's do the same thing the Captains do for only a few more points. Why on earth would you field a Relic Blade/SS captain when you can just tack on what, 20pts and take Vulkan and get a heavy flamer and a ridiculous army buff in the bargain?

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forcing people to reroll invulnerable savews? No way. Sure against Termy ARMOUR and Iron Haloes, but who fields those when you have SS?


Warding staves.
Vects 2++.
Daemons.
Wyches.
Zoanthropes.
C`tan.
Swarmlord.


Thing about null zone is, the better the opponents ++ save is, or the more NUMEROUS his ++ saves are, the better the power gets.
   
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Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

Anthing that gives a 3++ or better is likely to look at null zone and wet their trousers laughing.


4++ or less is probably going to brown themselves. Plain and simple.

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Anthing that gives a 3++ or better is likely to look at null zone and wet their trousers laughing.


Remember to laugh when your 3++s are rerolling...and mine are not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/06 23:02:51


 
   
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Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

Unless you want a bike theme, the good captain just fails in comparison to the librarian, who is just too good of a buff to pass up. Taking a named character is good for a captain (like Lysander), but a regular captain doesn't do it in comparison to others. Kinda hard to beat Null Zone and GoI. You have to fail 3++ eventually, forced re-rolls make it happen more often. Good luck with just a 3++ shield when you have to re-roll it...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/06 23:05:46


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Made in gb
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

I don't know how many rerolls for perils my Libby SS has had to pass. He passes them all, as did my zoanthrope, taking 15-20 bright lance shots and 5 krak missiles, and being Nulled, and passing them all. It was an allied game.


So yeah, I did laugh as the my opponents' SSs failed, while my Zoany survived enough to beat a war walker in CC, and blow up the last D-cannon at the end of the game.

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On moon miranda.

Deadshot wrote:Anthing that gives a 3++ or better is likely to look at null zone and wet their trousers laughing.
Probably not, considering it reduces the effectiveness of that 3++sv by about 50%, going from a 66% success rate to about a 45% success rate.

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Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

Only if you believe that. I believe in mind over matter, such as that I believe in the 3++ so much, and as my SS Libby and Zoany never failed, not even when nulled.

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Tampa, FL

Deadshot wrote:Only if you believe that. I believe in mind over matter, such as that I believe in the 3++ so much, and as my SS Libby and Zoany never failed, not even when nulled.


Belief? Are you seriously going to call out and say math is wrong?

 
   
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Courageous Space Marine Captain






Glasgow, Scotland

I din't say that. Maths is perfectly right. I was just saying that I believe that my belief in the save will keep it in that 45%, for a good long time.

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A garden grove on Citadel Station

Deadshot wrote:I din't say that. Maths is perfectly right. I was just saying that I believe that my belief in the save will keep it in that 45%, for a good long time.
You know that is false, right. Nothing you think will increase odds for you.

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When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
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The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

a change from 66% to 45% is massive, especially since things with saves like that are expensive and every failed save is an expensive model lost.

Seer Councils weep against Null Zone. at best, they have Fortune which cancels the reroll successes out. at worst, Fortune got blocked by the Psychic Hood and those Seers are rerolling their 4+ in the bad way.

Hammernators are countered by Null Zone. 5 Terminators with LCs charging 5 TH/SS terminators, supported by Null Zone, will annhilate them.


belive in your 3+ all you want, it won't change the fact that null zone is bad news for you. don't give bad information knowingly.

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Deadshot wrote:Anthing that gives a 3++ or better is likely to look at null zone and wet their trousers laughing..
I suggest taking a look at the math.
If you pick up the dice and roll that 3++ save, you have a 1/3 chance of failing. Null zone means if you succeed, you pick up the success and roll again. This means there is a sum total of 55% chance of failing the save.. Suddenly the nice, comfy 66.6% of making that save dropped to 45%, which is much less comfortable.

In one sense, your right, they will wet their trousers. Its because they will be pissing themselves when they have to reroll the success.
   
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This thread made me chuckle heartily. Soldier on Deadshot, you crazy trooper you

   
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Battle Creek, MI

Deadshot you need to start an Ork army you'd fit right in with your "beliefs" LOL

   
 
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