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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 21:27:38
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Boosting Space Marine Biker
The Halo Stars
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As the name says, I am looking for the reasons people think the captain is not worth his points unless you give him ONE spacific load out (relic blade, bike, storm shield, ect.).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 21:31:24
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Agile Revenant Titan
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Put simply, the buffs available from the Librarian just outweigh what the Captain can bring to the table.
The Captain isn't a bad choice, just not as good as the Librarian.
Iranna.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/06 21:37:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 21:37:04
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Iranna wrote:Put simply, the buffs available from the Librarian just outweigh what the Captain can bring to the table.
The Captain isn't a bad choice, just not as good as the Librarian.
Irrana.
Absolutely correct, they each have pros and cons
Libby
Force weapon
Psychic Powers
Pyschic Hood
No invul save
only 2 wounds
Captain
Higher init
Higher WS
Invul Save
3 wounds
Really GW a chainsword ...
and a bolt pistol
same price as a Libby
There are others of course, and the Captain takes his role in the front lines in Close Combat, where the Librarian is best close/midrange depending on powers taken.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 21:42:01
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
A garden grove on Citadel Station
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jdjamesdean@mail.com hit the nail on the head. It's just not worth it compared to the librarian, and the special characters are just a bit more expensive and a lot better if you want a fighting character.
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ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:05:31
Subject: Re:Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot
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Aye, Captains are not "bad", for that matter neither are Chaplains...but the other options are just flat out Better in terms of utility, or for pure beatsticking point for point.
I could have a captain with bike, relic blade, and SS...Or I could spend 20-30 more points and get something like...oh...Vulkan. Or Lysander.
Same thing happens with Chaplains. Same cost as a librarian, nowhere near the support ability. Even in his niche, if you want a beatstick chappy, Cassius is cheaper than a terminator chaplain and beats more <CENSORED>
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:14:40
Subject: Re:Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
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It also has to do with the strategy element. TH/SS terminators are so good and cheap that any beatstick character feels weak by comparison. A Librarian is a force multiplier, making nearby units stronger. I find the force multiplier strategy to be better for SM than the increased localized power brought by a captain over librarian.
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Sangfroid Marines 5000 pts
Wych Cult 2000
Tau 2000 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:18:35
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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The main reason is his base stuff. Chapter Masters and Captains come with Pitols and Chainsword. All the other HQs get Power Weapons, whether it is a Crozius, Force Staff, or a pair of Servo Arms, for the same points, and with an upgrade or 2 in the Master's case.
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
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Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:19:39
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
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Just to add, the reason that the specific loadouts are sometimes worth it is that they fit a specialty army. The loadout you listed would be for a bike list, as the Captain on bike is considered a better buy than Khan on a bike.
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DR:80S+++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k99+D+++++A++/mWD267R++T(T)DM+
2000 Points Athonian 39th
2000 Points Angels of Absolution
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:20:45
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Captains on bikes are essentially there to allow you to make a White Scars theme. No other reason.
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:22:58
Subject: Re:Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant
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Null Zone alone makes the Libby better than the captain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:24:32
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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forcing people to reroll invulnerable savews? No way. Sure against Termy ARMOUR and Iron Haloes, but who fields those when you have SS?
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:25:53
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
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Deadshot wrote:Captains on bikes are essentially there to allow you to make a White Scars theme. No other reason.
Because White Scars are the only chapter that specializes in bikes, right? The reason is so you can have a biker army. White Scars have nothing to do with it.
Also, the captain's base gear has almost nothing to do with why he isn't optimal, and certainly is not the 'main' reason.
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DR:80S+++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k99+D+++++A++/mWD267R++T(T)DM+
2000 Points Athonian 39th
2000 Points Angels of Absolution
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:25:57
Subject: Re:Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Angered Reaver Arena Champion
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Deadshot, I'm not sure what you are saying there. Could you please clarify that statement?
this one:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deadshot wrote:forcing people to reroll invulnerable savews? No way. Sure against Termy ARMOUR and Iron Haloes, but who fields those when you have SS?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/09/06 22:26:21
Sangfroid Marines 5000 pts
Wych Cult 2000
Tau 2000 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:26:48
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Perfect Shot Dark Angels Predator Pilot
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Deadshot... SS gives you a 3+ invulnerable save. The existence of Storm Shields is WHY Null Zone is so good.
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DR:80S+++G+++M+B++I+Pw40k99+D+++++A++/mWD267R++T(T)DM+
2000 Points Athonian 39th
2000 Points Angels of Absolution
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:31:44
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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Deadshot wrote:forcing people to reroll invulnerable savews? No way. Sure against Termy ARMOUR and Iron Haloes, but who fields those when you have SS?
It's the "best" psychic power in the Codex; SM
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:33:32
Subject: Re:Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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The other HQ's give you more than just killy power, they add utility. Most of the SC's do the same thing the Captains do for only a few more points. Why on earth would you field a Relic Blade/SS captain when you can just tack on what, 20pts and take Vulkan and get a heavy flamer and a ridiculous army buff in the bargain?
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:38:41
Subject: Re:Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot
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forcing people to reroll invulnerable savews? No way. Sure against Termy ARMOUR and Iron Haloes, but who fields those when you have SS?
Warding staves.
Vects 2++.
Daemons.
Wyches.
Zoanthropes.
C`tan.
Swarmlord.
Thing about null zone is, the better the opponents ++ save is, or the more NUMEROUS his ++ saves are, the better the power gets.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:53:38
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Anthing that gives a 3++ or better is likely to look at null zone and wet their trousers laughing.
4++ or less is probably going to brown themselves. Plain and simple.
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 22:57:10
Subject: Re:Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Perfect Shot Ultramarine Predator Pilot
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Anthing that gives a 3++ or better is likely to look at null zone and wet their trousers laughing.
Remember to laugh when your 3++s are rerolling...and mine are not.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/06 23:02:51
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 23:05:18
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh
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Unless you want a bike theme, the good captain just fails in comparison to the librarian, who is just too good of a buff to pass up. Taking a named character is good for a captain (like Lysander), but a regular captain doesn't do it in comparison to others. Kinda hard to beat Null Zone and GoI. You have to fail 3++ eventually, forced re-rolls make it happen more often. Good luck with just a 3++ shield when you have to re-roll it...
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/09/06 23:05:46
Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.
Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.
Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 23:05:40
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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I don't know how many rerolls for perils my Libby SS has had to pass. He passes them all, as did my zoanthrope, taking 15-20 bright lance shots and 5 krak missiles, and being Nulled, and passing them all. It was an allied game.
So yeah, I did laugh as the my opponents' SSs failed, while my Zoany survived enough to beat a war walker in CC, and blow up the last D-cannon at the end of the game.
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 23:10:28
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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Deadshot wrote:Anthing that gives a 3++ or better is likely to look at null zone and wet their trousers laughing.
Probably not, considering it reduces the effectiveness of that 3++ sv by about 50%, going from a 66% success rate to about a 45% success rate.
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IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 23:12:51
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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Only if you believe that. I believe in mind over matter, such as that I believe in the 3++ so much, and as my SS Libby and Zoany never failed, not even when nulled.
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 23:14:58
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Savage Khorne Berserker Biker
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Deadshot wrote:Only if you believe that. I believe in mind over matter, such as that I believe in the 3++ so much, and as my SS Libby and Zoany never failed, not even when nulled.
Belief? Are you seriously going to call out and say math is wrong?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 23:21:35
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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I din't say that. Maths is perfectly right. I was just saying that I believe that my belief in the save will keep it in that 45%, for a good long time.
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I'm celebrating 8 years on Dakka Dakka!
I started an Instagram! Follow me at Deadshot Miniatures!
DR:90+S++G+++M+B+IPw40k08#-D+++A+++/cwd363R+++T(Ot)DM+
Check out my Deathwatch story, Aftermath in the fiction section!
Credit to Castiel for banner. Thanks Cas!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 23:27:43
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
A garden grove on Citadel Station
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Deadshot wrote:I din't say that. Maths is perfectly right. I was just saying that I believe that my belief in the save will keep it in that 45%, for a good long time.
You know that is false, right. Nothing you think will increase odds for you.
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ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau
+From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/06 23:33:08
Subject: Re:Why is the SM captain sub-par
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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a change from 66% to 45% is massive, especially since things with saves like that are expensive and every failed save is an expensive model lost.
Seer Councils weep against Null Zone. at best, they have Fortune which cancels the reroll successes out. at worst, Fortune got blocked by the Psychic Hood and those Seers are rerolling their 4+ in the bad way.
Hammernators are countered by Null Zone. 5 Terminators with LCs charging 5 TH/SS terminators, supported by Null Zone, will annhilate them.
belive in your 3+ all you want, it won't change the fact that null zone is bad news for you. don't give bad information knowingly.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/07 00:23:51
Subject: Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets
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Deadshot wrote:Anthing that gives a 3++ or better is likely to look at null zone and wet their trousers laughing..
I suggest taking a look at the math.
If you pick up the dice and roll that 3++ save, you have a 1/3 chance of failing. Null zone means if you succeed, you pick up the success and roll again. This means there is a sum total of 55% chance of failing the save.. Suddenly the nice, comfy 66.6% of making that save dropped to 45%, which is much less comfortable.
In one sense, your right, they will wet their trousers. Its because they will be pissing themselves when they have to reroll the success.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/07 00:56:17
Subject: Re:Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
In your squads, doing the chainsword tango
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This thread made me chuckle heartily. Soldier on Deadshot, you crazy trooper you
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/09/07 01:54:22
Subject: Re:Why is the SM captain sub-par
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Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
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Deadshot you need to start an Ork army you'd fit right in with your "beliefs" LOL
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