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Does any kind of bible-equivalent for the Imperial Cult/Ecclesiarchy exist? Aka, a universally standard book of religious texts that lays out beliefs/dogma/religious rules? Just about every religion in the world has one, and it's a bit bizarre I've never heard of the Imperial Cult one. Especially since the Imperial Cult is one of the few things that unifies the worlds of the Imperium. I imagine it would be quite easy for the Ecclesiarchy, which preaches basically the same religion across the galaxy, to distribute those things in massive numbers.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lectitio_Divinitatus

KamikazeCanuck wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lectitio_Divinitatus

I sincerely doubt a book written by a Daemon Prince is widely used as the text of the Imperial Cult.

He wasn't a daemon prince at the time. It was his idea to make The Emperor a god. He succeded in the end...

From the Page Link -

The Lectitio Divinitatus (also Lectio Divinitatus) was a book written by the Primarch Lorgar1 during the Great Crusade, before his fall to Chaos. It postulated the worship of the Emperor of Mankind as a divine being.

The following of the Lectitio Divinitatus became an underground cult, believed to be the precursor of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor and the Imperial Cult, the basis of the modern Ecclesiarchy. During the Great Crusade such cults were frowned upon by the Emperor and the Council of Terra, and most especially by the Astartes and those serving them. The Emperor downplayed his divinity, but those who believed in the Emperor's godhood were of the opinion - as Titus Cassar once put it - that "only the truly divine deny their divinity".

In the 63rd Expeditionary Fleet, commanded by Warmaster Horus himself, the cult was most prevalent. Horus took steps to try to extinguish the cult, as he perceived it as a threat to his power. The remembrancer Euphrati Keeler - who was attached to the 63rd - became a major figure, venerated as a prophet and living saint of the Emperor. As a result, she was the target of Horus' assassins at some point before she escaped from the Vengeful Spirit. Even some Astartes - such as Nathaniel Garro, the Death Guard loyalist who led the Eisenstein escape - became part of the cult at one point.

At some point after the Emperor was interred in the Golden Throne, worshippers emerged from all across the Imperium, unifying the people until it became the official religion of the Imperium.

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Sounds like the answer to me.

Yep. The Imperial Religon was created by a traitor primarch who became a traitor primarch because he was chastised by The Emperor for spreading that religon.

Harriticus wrote:Does any kind of bible-equivalent for the Imperial Cult/Ecclesiarchy exist? Aka, a universally standard book of religious texts that lays out beliefs/dogma/religious rules?

No. There is the Imperial Creed, but given the Ministorum's approach on incorporating rediscovered human colonies into the fold*, a great deal of variations can be found amongst local faiths, some of which may even seem heretical to visitors from other worlds.

*: Basically, the Missionarius Galaxia and the Orders Sabine infiltrate the target world and attempt to subvert the local faith by "re-interpreting" it in a way that makes the local population believe they were praying to the Emperor all along. The infiltrators then prophesize the arrival of the Emperor's forces, so that when the Imperial fleet finally shows up in size it will further strengthen the pro-Imperial movement, making the transition that much easier.
The downside is that the Emperor will continue to be venerated in a way that is "tainted" by what the locals believed before.

Head exploding!

Connor McKane wrote:Head exploding!

Harriticus wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lectitio_Divinitatus

I sincerely doubt a book written by a Daemon Prince is widely used as the text of the Imperial Cult.

That's the irony of it. If you read the Horus Heresy, the Lectitio starts going around and has a secret cult around it (since at the time any sort of religious leanings were severely frowned upon). Despite all of his flaws, Lorgar ended up being right, with faith being the only thing that held the Imperium together.

That said, according to the GW Codex material, the Temple of the Saviour Emperor was started by a highly respected officer of the Imperial Guard who served in the defence of the Imperial Palace and claimed to had received a vision by the Emperor, then proceeded to attract lots of followers and slowly absorbing the many different beliefs that had already started to crop up when Big E was still alive.

I haven't read the Horus Heresy novels, so I have no idea how that is supposed to tie in there. My gut says the authors just ignored that bit or were unaware.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yep. The Imperial Religon was created by a traitor primarch who became a traitor primarch because he was chastised by The Emperor for spreading that religon.

Not quite. The original religion was eventually replaced during the Age of Apostasy, by Sebastian Thor's far less corrupt version.

Those who worship in the Temple of the Savior Emperor, Ie the Temple Tendency, are viewed as heretics. The current religion is known as the Confederation of Light, and is more focused on bringing people to faith than before, where it was often focused on money and power.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yep. The Imperial Religon was created by a traitor primarch who became a traitor primarch because he was chastised by The Emperor for spreading that religon.

Not quite. The original religion was eventually replaced during the Age of Apostasy, by Sebastian Thor's far less corrupt version.

Those who worship in the Temple of the Savior Emperor, Ie the Temple Tendency, are viewed as heretics. The current religion is known as the Confederation of Light, and is more focused on bringing people to faith than before, where it was often focused on money and power.

You're opening up a big can of worms there. Original religon? Replacement? Every world has their own version of the Imperial creed. The Age of Apostasy could be viewed as some sort of psuedo-protestant movement but just like irl Catholics still exist. In a way they both view each other a heretics. In real life there are 38,000 denominations of Christianity. 40K is like that times a million. All the factions know they are the correct one but respect the fact at least the others are right emperor-fearing folk.

And I'm also quoting canon.

The "Temple of the Savior Emperor", IE, the original Ecclesiarchy and all its tenets, is heresy. Punishable by death.

That's fine, but the question is enforcement. What would be the central difference in these denominations? Are they really more outrageous than some planets who thinks The Emperor is that really big tree over there? It's very much like the church to make some meaningless "punishable by death" edict. In the end its just politics and an excuse to wage war against factions on matters that aren't even of a theological nature.

In the world history, many heresies came from different interpretations of the Bible and the revelation. So the most hated and punished heretics in the IoM may be not Chaos cultists and xenophiles but people whose faith only a bit differs from the Ecclesiarchial orthodoxy.

Or an upstart who's encrouching on the power base of a more established Cardinal. "Er, yes his version of the Imperial Cult is blasphemy. Everyone knows The Emperor doesn't approve of Grox meat on Thursdays. Sisters, burn him in the name of the emperor."

The Temple Tendency is a bit more... out there... than the standard Imperial Creed. I don't have my DH books with me, which go into quite some detail on major variances of the Imperial Cult (the better for making heretical characters/antagonists).

That said, there is no single, standard, Imperium-spanning Bible for the Imperial Creed. The most and best you get is a book that encompasses all the "approved" belief structures and traditions across a given sub-sector. Anything larger than that is pretty much impossible. There's too many variances and planetary differences involved.

Also, no culture is permitted to worship "that tree over there" as the Emperor, since the Emperor is, by the canon of the Creed, arisen to the Golden Throne on Holy Terra. Of course, you could worship that tree over there as representative of the Risen God-Emperor... but to claim that the tree is the God-Emperor Himself is to invite the Sisters of Battle to put your pagan world to the torch and flamer.

Many worlds worship their local sun as representative of the Emperor. Others the moon, or a local comet, or some other visible, celestial body. Others a mountain, or a "holy site", such as where the ships of the Great Crusade originally touched down, or a place where the Emperor stood when the world was conquered. More modern worlds, of course, tend to go for the Temples and Church things that are more familiar to us in the 21st century.

Psienesis wrote:
Also, no culture is permitted to worship "that tree over there" as the Emperor, since the Emperor is, by the canon of the Creed, arisen to the Golden Throne on Holy Terra. Of course, you could worship that tree over there as representative of the Risen God-Emperor... but to claim that the tree is the God-Emperor Himself is to invite the Sisters of Battle to put your pagan world to the torch and flamer.

That is what I mean. An ancient tree could represent "The spirit of Emperor" or some such nonsense. What usually happens is the locals where worshipping the tree beforehand and Imperial Missionaries say "Oh yeah, that's The Emperor's Spirit. See! You were worshipping the Emperor all along. We're all one big happy family".
Eisenhorn points out it fairly common for worlds to worship their sun as the Emperor.

And it'll be a Great Tree Heresy.
The distinction between religions and heresies often has political reasons. Religious dogmata were brought to life by the ecumenical councils according to current political situation or benefits.
Imperial church would accept the cult of the great tree only if its worshippers are too primitive to understand the Imperial Creed and/or it claims the same values as Ecclesiarchy does. If people believe in Emperor but want to live another way (e.g. to live for themselves), they have to be exterminated.

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Yep. The Imperial Religon was created by a traitor primarch who became a traitor primarch because he was chastised by The Emperor for spreading that religon.

Not quite. The original religion was eventually replaced during the Age of Apostasy, by Sebastian Thor's far less corrupt version.

Those who worship in the Temple of the Savior Emperor, Ie the Temple Tendency, are viewed as heretics. The current religion is known as the Confederation of Light, and is more focused on bringing people to faith than before, where it was often focused on money and power.

You're pushing it a bit far to describe the two as separate religions, since the general tenets of the 'imperial creed' - i.e. humanity must rule the stars, psykers and mutants must be controlled, and the alien must be purged, and have remained unchanged since before the Heresy (and indeed before the official Imperial Cult), it would be better to describe to two as different confessions, like Protestantism and Catholicism.

This comparison is made all the more apposite by the obvious (and evidently deliberate) parallels the studio have drawn to late-medieval/early-modern Christianity - i.e Sebastian Thor is an analogue of Martin Luther/John Calvin, likewise the Ecclesiarchy's move to Ophelia VII is the Avignon papacy, Goge Vandire is Alexander VI (Roderico Borgia), and the Age of Apostasy the Reformation. Dark Heresy indeed takes the same parallels yet further, adding the Temple Tendency, an analogue of the Jesuits, and describing the post-Age of Apostasy reforms of the Ecclesiarchy as 'Sebastian Thor's Reformation'.

Following that logic, there's no particular reason not to presume that the Lectito Divinatus is not still part of the Ecclesiarcy's canon, just as, for example, both Protestants (and indeed secular thinkers) continue to value pre-Reformation writers like Thomas Aquinas or William of Occam.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That's fine, but the question is enforcement. What would be the central difference in these denominations? Are they really more outrageous than some planets who thinks The Emperor is that really big tree over there? It's very much like the church to make some meaningless "punishable by death" edict. In the end its just politics and an excuse to wage war against factions on matters that aren't even of a theological nature.

The primary difference was in the level of power ecclesiarchy officials had and the expectations of the church's showing off of wealth, from what I can tell.

I suggest you read the various supplements to the Dark Heresy roleplay books, as they have more information on Temple Tendency, the shortened name for the TotSE.

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English Assassin wrote:Following that logic, there's no particular reason not to presume that the Lectito Divinatus is not still part of the Ecclesiarcy's canon, just as, for example, both Protestants (and indeed secular thinkers) continue to value pre-Reformation writers like Thomas Aquinas or William of Occam.

Perhaps, but in the Imperium, actually following the creed of the Temple of the Savior Emperor is heretical.

Rather specifically stated to be, in fact, they have to go into hiding and do their worship in secret because of this.

That was point though. It's a political dispute not a theological one. When Protestants split with the Vatican they didn't say the Bible is now invalid they just said the Pope is a jerk, don't listen to him.

No, but many protestant branches of Christianity did adopt or dismiss various parts of it or prefer different interpretations and translations which are wrong in the eyes of Roman Catholicism.

And similar things probably happened with the eccelsiarcial faith too.

And unlike the modern world, the ecclesiarchy tends to kill people like that. So the group and its belief set is heresy. I'm not sure you really have a point.

Since there is no unified imperial church i do not think that there is some kind of imperial "bible".
We will most likely have a huge number of holy books which are all accepted as long as they follow the general tenets of the eclesiarchy ( the emprah is a god, serve and worship the emprah, obey your masters, abhor the alien and the heretic ).

Melissia wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:That's fine, but the question is enforcement. What would be the central difference in these denominations? Are they really more outrageous than some planets who thinks The Emperor is that really big tree over there? It's very much like the church to make some meaningless "punishable by death" edict. In the end its just politics and an excuse to wage war against factions on matters that aren't even of a theological nature.

The primary difference was in the level of power ecclesiarchy officials had and the expectations of the church's showing off of wealth, from what I can tell.

I suggest you read the various supplements to the Dark Heresy roleplay books, as they have more information on Temple Tendency, the shortened name for the TotSE.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

English Assassin wrote:Following that logic, there's no particular reason not to presume that the Lectito Divinatus is not still part of the Ecclesiarcy's canon, just as, for example, both Protestants (and indeed secular thinkers) continue to value pre-Reformation writers like Thomas Aquinas or William of Occam.

Perhaps, but in the Imperium, actually following the creed of the Temple of the Savior Emperor is heretical.

Rather specifically stated to be, in fact, they have to go into hiding and do their worship in secret because of this.

I think you've entirely missed the point here, Melissa. I've read exactly the same Dark Heresy supplement you have; the events following the Age of Apostacy are explicity described as a 'reformation' and described almost entirely in terms of institutional, not theological reform. The two are not, as you would have it, different religions, and there is nothing specifically to support your claim that the Lectito Divinatus is no longer the ur-text of the Imperial Cult - indeed I feel obliged to point out again that the Imperial Creed itself, albeit transformed from the secular concept of mankind's manifest destiny to an article of religious faith, has remained unchanged since the Emperor's lifetime. It is possible that such changes have occurred, but nowhere is it stated - or, frankly, even implied - and you are disingenuous to claim otherwise. That the Temple Tendency are regarded as heretics is irrelevant to the discussion - it is their clinging to outdated beliefs about the manner in which the Emperor should be worshipped and the government of his church which makes them so, not their theology.

Omegus wrote:

Harriticus wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lectitio_Divinitatus

I sincerely doubt a book written by a Daemon Prince is widely used as the text of the Imperial Cult.

That's the irony of it. If you read the Horus Heresy, the Lectitio starts going around and has a secret cult around it (since at the time any sort of religious leanings were severely frowned upon). Despite all of his flaws, Lorgar ended up being right, with faith being the only thing that held the Imperium together.

Even more irony: Horus was shown a vision of the Emperor being revered as a god, which caused him (Horus) to turn to Chaos. Because of Horus' fall to Chaos and the eventual Siege of Terra, the Emperor became revered as a god, exactly what Horus fought to prevent.