Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, this is only the first draft so feel free to suggest changes, but basically it works off markerlighting stuff then destroying it from afar, then fire warriors getting into devilfish, destroying stuff from close up (with 2 shots each) and then claiming objectives. Kroot are there to protect battlesuits and counter-attack if something gets assaulted. Also, they're there to die.

HQ
Shas'el: Fusion Blaster, Missile Pods, Targeting Array, Hard-Wired Multi-Tracker, 1 shield drone: 96pts
Etherial: 50pts
11 Honour Guard: Photon Grenades: 143pts

Troops
12 Fire Warriors: Photon Grenades: 132pts
11 Fire Warriors: Photon Grenades: 121pts
10 Kroot, 6 Hounds: 106pts

Fast Attack
3x 4 Pathfinders: 144pts
3x Devilfish: Disruption Pods: 255pts

Heavy Support
2 Sniper Drone Teams: 160pts
2x 2 Broadsides: Blacksun Filters: 292pts

Total: 1499pts

Definitely not enough firepower in the list. To be frank....firewarriors just suck. Drop each of those down to 6-man units.

Ethereal is a fairly poor choice, doesn't do too much for the army and when he dies you have a good chance of stuff running away. Drop him + the honor guard.

With Tau, it's the crisis suits that do most of the heavy lifting and killing. At 1500 points, I'd suggest at least 6 - 8 of them (excluding the HQ).

Kroot are good, though you may not need that many hounds.

Pathfinders are pretty good, though I'd only two would work. Piranhas would help with blocking enemy units and maybe killing a tank or two.


Sniper Drone Teams suck, drop them.

Broadsides should have ASS over the filters.

Ethereal is a terrible choice, and Fire Warriors are bad whether they're bodyguards or regular... and with the speed things are at these days you can't really rely on having any time to shoot them properly with a static gunline anyway as suggested, dropping them down to the minimum squad size is always a good idea...

Fusion/MP commander? NEVER seen that combo before, I prefer to keep him as a standard PR/Missile Pod etc. Shas'el... takes advantage of everything he's good for

6 Crisis Suits is a pretty good standard for 1500 points games, as Nungunz suggested. Mostly Plasma/Missile/Multi-tracker combos, maybe a deathrain team or something as well.

Kroot are useful, but as said, that's a lotta hounds

You've gone WAY over the top with the pathfinders as well... 4-8, fine, but 12 at 1500 points? No, just... no moar gunz!

Moar long range anti-tank! Broadsides, railheads, whatever, either is a better choice than a sniper team.


This does kinda seem to have a long way to go on the road to efficiency =\

That many pathfinders is quite excessive. One squad should be fine. Never tried sniper team. 3 shots with a markerlight is too expensive imo but play with what you like to play with.

Grenades of any kind aren't worth it. They still won't help firewarriors win combat.

The shasel as a suicide unit is too expensive. You're better off with a team leader monat if you insist on it.

You have a lot of anti troop fire but you'll run into a lot of trouble with meq. Suits would be preferable for the remedy.

Ethereals just aren't worth it.

When you get more experience with tau you'll start to get that its all about sacrificing for the greater good. Bubblewraps, screens, moving tank walls with JSJ suits.

p_gray99 wrote:11 Fire Warriors: Photon Grenades:

Why, after the advice I gave here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/395062.page
, do you still have PGs on your FWs?
Is this your reason?

p_gray99 wrote:The fire warriors in with grenades go forwards in the pathfinders' devilfish, and possibly survive long enough to let kroot counter-attack.

Dude, kroot don't "counter attack". They counter "get killed". Slow Init, no armor save, lousy (or overpriced) leadership. Tau's best asset is shooting, and by leaving the PGs on the FWs means that your guns *can't* shoot the enemy, because your FWs managed to survive that first round of h2h.

LAme.

p_gray99 wrote: With both squads of vespids working together with a few markerlights helping, they'll hit the marines on 3s, wound them on 3s (probably killing around 5) then assault. This should be enough to leave an unhappy sergeant in combat with 11 vespids, and losing the combat next turn, allowing me to do it again. Trust me, this works.

12 shots at BS4, with a MarkerLight's help. Oh, wait, two MLs, as you have two units. Okay. 8 hit. Kill 5. Gotcha. Um, with Cover Saves, that'd be ~3 dead. Or, if there's more ML help, back up to 5 dead SM.

Moving on: Assault. *if* the SM player decides not to use Combat Tactics, then your bugs assault 'em. If he uses CTs, then your bugs are in the open, with lousy armor saves (not in cover, 'cause that'd be hard to assault out of, right?) . 12 bugs, 24 swings. 12 hit. 4 wound (STR 3 bugs vs. T4 SMs). One dead marine. Maybe two.

4 SM swing back, including sarge. 3 swing, 2 hit (WS4 vs. bugs' WS3). 1 wound. One dead bug. Sarge swings twice. Another Dead bug. You lost h2h by one, likely, and you now have two leadership 8 rolls. Not horrible, but not great either.

p_gray99 wrote:This should be enough to leave an unhappy sergeant in combat with 11 vespids, and losing the combat next turn

Not by my MathHammer.

And these aren't even Space Wolves, BAs or GKs, all of which have more swings coming back.

p_gray99 wrote:Trust me, this works.

Against vanilla SM nooBs, perhaps? There's *one* faithful vanilla SM player at my well-attended FLGS. There rest are GKs, SW and BAs. Your local meta isn't full of Matt Ward suckage?

You don't play against a lot of mech, do you?

Your only anti-tank consists of 2 railguns and a single missile pod. My 1500 SM list has 10 vehicles in it, goodluck getting through that. Not to mention your broadsides have nothing to protect them from ID shots like lascannons/dark lances/melta.

Get rid of the Etherial, Honour Guard and their devilfish, two units of pathfinders, the sniper drones and cut the FW down to 6 each. Instead take 9 suits with either Plasma Rifle/Missile Pod or Burst Cannon/Missile Pod. Any points leftover should go into broadsides with gun/shield drones as ablative wounds.

Fire Warriors are bad whether they're bodyguards or regular

Not with markerlight help: 34 shots hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s can annihilate a terminator squad quite easily: around 20 wounds so 7 dead, then sniper drone teams finnish them off.

That many pathfinders is quite excessive.

My 1500 SM list has 10 vehicles in it

I'm sorry, did I just see those 2 quotes on the same page? Being excessive at one thing has been proven to work (e.g. the 10 vehical SM list) and I've got 3 units destroying a heavy armour tank every turn (with markerlight help if needed) and S5 pulse rifles en mass and 6 S6 rail rifles can quite easily cope with any light armour. With all my anti-tank stuff AP1 and likely to pen. anyway, I have almost a 50/50 chance of destroying a tank and, if not, I can immobilise them while still 72" away, or simply blow their main weapons off. Tanks aren't a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dude, kroot don't "counter attack". They counter "get killed". Slow Init

Uh, did 6 Kroot Hounds just vanish from sight when reading my army list? That's 2 dead before they can even move.

Honestly, now you're just being difficult. I've played lists like yours for fun and am telling you they just don't work. Everyone else is saying they just don't work. Only you, the seeker of the advice, are arguing that it does. See the problem here?

p_gray99 wrote:

Fire Warriors are bad whether they're bodyguards or regular

Not with markerlight help: 34 shots hitting on 2s and wounding on 3s can annihilate a terminator squad quite easily: around 20 wounds so 7 dead, then sniper drone teams finnish them off.

Well, sure, but you just fired 34 shots at a terminator squad... the rest of the army then carries on, relatively unharmed because you lack to the volume of good quality firepower to take on multiple targets. You kill 7 Terminators, a vehicle or two OR a few marines a turn. Well done, you sank 1500 points into killing that LR with it's cargo of terminators. Then the rest of the army pops out and eats you alive.

That many pathfinders is quite excessive.

My 1500 SM list has 10 vehicles in it

I'm sorry, did I just see those 2 quotes on the same page? Being excessive at one thing has been proven to work (e.g. the 10 vehical SM list) and I've got 3 units destroying a heavy armour tank every turn (with markerlight help if needed) and S5 pulse rifles en mass and 6 S6 rail rifles can quite easily cope with any light armour. With all my anti-tank stuff AP1 and likely to pen. anyway, I have almost a 50/50 chance of destroying a tank and, if not, I can immobilise them while still 72" away, or simply blow their main weapons off. Tanks aren't a problem.

But your rail rifles and pulse rifles are busy killing those 10 guys, who are not out of their vehicles yet because you lack anti-tank... anyway, the difference is that vehicle spam serves a definite purpose. Pathfinder spam, i.e. spam of a supporting unit, is holding your army back. So yes, those two points co-exist perfectly on this page. Would you field a gun drone spam list? No, because gun drones are, that's right, not good enough Until a certain limit is reached you want quantity beyond quality. 4 pathfinders? Useful. 8 pathfinders? Useful! 12 pathfinders? You're going too far you just sank 1/4 of your points into supporting units that aren't going to make enough difference to pull the points back... and tanks will be a problem, especially in large amounts.

Dude, kroot don't "counter attack". They counter "get killed". Slow Init

Uh, did 6 Kroot Hounds just vanish from sight when reading my army list? That's 2 dead before they can even move.

Well yes, that is your problem. You are trying to use them to counter-attack, completely ignoring their best role, a simple speed bump. You want the enemy to have to charge them and then leave themselves open for close-range destruction the following turn. The kroot themselves aren't really expected to kill anything.


Honestly now, you list has huge, epic, gaping flaws in it. You are trying to utilise some of the poorest units in the codex (fire warriors, sniper drones) as the core of your army and it just is not going to work out well. You have ONE crisis battlesuit, you have FIVE anti-tank shots, two of which are only light anti-tank and one of which is effective at 6-12" range. You are severely lacking in high-strength high-ap beyond your sniper drones, which lack mobility, durability and volume of fire.

Get some battlesuits, get some light anti-tank, ditch all the fire warriors (edit: to the minimum squad sizes) and some of the pathfinders, or admit you're just trying to troll list here. You're telling us your list can handle what we are telling you, from experience, that it can't.

I'll second pretty much everything Beregond said.

Sorry, p_gray99, I wish you weren't in the UK, but in my area, as I'd gladly play against your list. With Tau, SM (not even SW or BA), bugs, DE, Eldar, whichever. Then we could see less theory (dude, your list won't work) and actual play.

Oh, well.

Good luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

p_gray99 wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dude, kroot don't "counter attack". They counter "get killed". Slow Init

Uh, did 6 Kroot Hounds just vanish from sight when reading my army list? That's 2 dead before they can even move.

Ah, I did miss the hounds the first run through. And here's the sarcastic part:

"Oop, I did miss those six hounds ... Init 5, 3 attacks each on the charge, at STR3, so 18 swings, 9 hit, 4.5 wound. ~1 dead SM."
Back to actual Constructive Criticism.
And then the tactical squad swings back before the kroot do, and every wound adds up to dead hounds first (being smart with Wound Allocation). 8 swings back, ~5+ wound. Already putting your unit at 5 or 6 dead models, versus the 3 dead SM (total) once the kroot get done with their swings. 30 kroot swings (on the charge ... assuming non-transport mercs get the charge), 15 hit, ~7.5 wounds. 2 or 3 dead SM. Sarge steps up and it's another dead mercenary or dog. Kroot lose by 3 ... on base Leadership 7.

p_gray99 wrote:

That many pathfinders is quite excessive.

My 1500 SM list has 10 vehicles in it

I'm sorry, did I just see those 2 quotes on the same page? Being excessive at one thing has been proven to work (e.g. the 10 vehical SM list) and I've got 3 units destroying a heavy armour tank every turn (with markerlight help if needed) and S5 pulse rifles en mass and 6 S6 rail rifles can quite easily cope with any light armour. With all my anti-tank stuff AP1 and likely to pen. anyway, I have almost a 50/50 chance of destroying a tank and, if not, I can immobilise them while still 72" away, or simply blow their main weapons off. Tanks aren't a problem.

Lol, you're completely delusional.

You're averaging 6 hits per turn with your markerlights. That's enough to raise each of your Broadsides to Bs4 and reduce two vehicles cover saves to 6+. Even with all of that, you're only going to average less than one vehicle kill per turn. That's turn one; turn two they're both dead because you haven't given them ablative wounds to protect from ID weapons, and as the only source of anti-tank they're number on one your opponents priority list.

All the best killing Av11 with Fire Warriors.

unbeliever87 wrote:All the best killing Av11 with Fire Warriors.

For every bit of 'bad' fire warriors are at -destroying- AV11, they are very good at -disrupting- AV11, which is almost as good, and buys you time to bring the big guns to bear


Automatically Appended Next Post:
12 Firewarriors shoot @ rhino. 6 hit. 1 Glance.

Average roll on 1d6 is 3.5... half 3's, half 4's. So 50% of the time a full squad of fire warriors will, on average, stun a rhino.

Rapid Fire only helps that, if you're in range. (All the more critical that you stun that rhino!)

Not bad, when you consider that it's not even their designated role in an army.

Fine. How about this list?
HQ
Shas'el: Plasma Rifle, CIB, Targeting Array, HW Multi-Tracker, Shield drone: 115pts

Elites
2 XV8 Shas'ui: Plasma Rifles, Fusion Blasters, Targeting Arrays, Team Leader w/ HW target lock + 2 Gun drones: 164pts
2 XV8 Shas'ui: Plasma Rifles, Fusion Blasters, Targeting Arrays, Team Leader w/ HW target lock + 2 Gun drones: 164pts

Troops
6 Fire Warriors: Photon Grenades: 66pts
6 Fire Warriors: Photon Grenades: 66pts
6 Fire Warriors: Photon Grenades: 66pts
10 Kroot, 6 Hounds: 106pts

Fast Attack
4 Pathfinders: 48pts, Devilfish: Disruption Pods: 85pts
4 Pathfinders: 48pts, Devilfish: Disruption Pods: 85pts

Heavy Support:
2 Broadsides: Drone Controllers + 2 Gun Drones: 160pts
2 Broadsides: Drone Controllers + 2 Gun Drones: 160pts
Hammerhead Gunship: railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, disruption pods: 165pts

Total: 1498pts

I reckon it's pretty obvious what each element does. Should the crisis suits deepstrike? the pathfinders' devilfish allow the scatter die to be re-rolled so it's unlikely to be a terrible disaster.
Comments?

Looks better, I suppose, but your taking fusion blasters on the suits puzzles me I never liked that setup, as it gets you WAY too close for comfort. And... why target locks on the XV8s? Hell, why targetting arrays on the XV8s? You can field 3 fireknives for not much more than 2 of your suits + drones there =\


Oh and will you PLEASE stop taking photon grenades? XD if you ever get charged your fire warriors are screwed regardless of whether they have them or not. Waste of points. People have told you this time and time again...


Other than that, 'tis getting better, much better

A Helios can destroy a tank or heavy infantry from range whereas a Fireknife's missles will bounce off heavy infantry, making them pretty much useless (unless attacking light tanks, in which case a fusion blaster is better anyway. Also, crisis suits die way too quickly unless they have drones (or at least are different for wound allocation).
The Bladestorm is another possibility, being good against infantry and heavy infantry, but that just leaves the broadsides and hammerhead to deal with any tanks.
And fine, I'll stop taking photon grenades if you insist.

The difference between a missile pod and a fusion, though, is that the fusion has an effective 6-12" range, compared to the missile pods 36"... given that you already have 5 railguns, 4 of which are twin-linked, I don't think your issue is heavy anti-tank, but light-anti tank for dealing with the masses of transports out there rhinos, chimeras, venoms, raiders, etc. etc. all go down pretty easily to a missile pod. Then they have to foot it across the entire table to get to you, rather than you already being there in charge range for them that's kinda the point.

Never found my Crisis suits die too easily without any drones, but YMMV on that one I guess one of those things I put down to a personal choice.

And it's not just that I say not to take photon grenades... its that every Tau player ever says not to, because they aren't really any use XD

Ok, so here's my new army list:
HQ
Shas'el: Plasma Rifle, CIB, Targeting Array, HW Multi-Tracker, Gun drone: 110pts

Elites
2 XV8 Shas'ui: Plasma Rifles, Missle Pods, Multi-Trackers, Team Leader w/2 Gun drones: 139pts
2 XV8 Shas'ui: Plasma Rifles, Missle Pods, Multi-Trackers, Team Leader w/2 Gun drones: 139pts

Troops
6 Fire Warriors: 60pts
6 Fire Warriors: 60pts
6 Fire Warriors: 60pts
10 Kroot, 5 Hounds: 100pts

Fast Attack
4 Pathfinders: 48pts, Devilfish: Disruption Pods: 85pts
4 Pathfinders: 48pts, Devilfish: Disruption Pods: 85pts

Heavy Support:
3 Broadsides: Drone Controllers + 3 Gun Drones: 240pts
2 Broadsides: Drone Controllers + 2 Gun Drones: 160pts
Hammerhead Gunship: railgun, burst cannons, multi-tracker, disruption pods: 165pts

Total: 1499pts

So from being all about pathfinders and fire warriors with a few sniper drones it's become pretty much most people's standard list (possibly a few more pathfinders than usual). What should I do to it now?

Tbh its not really most peoples standard anyway... too few Crisis suits, more kroot and still more FW than most field... but I think what you've got there would be interesting to play, really different enough from the norm to be interesting, but not so far out that it would just roll over and die when you look at it.

So yeah, I like it

I'm with beregond. There's still stuff in there I wouldn't play, but you have absolutely optimized the list at this point. You will probably double your wins over the list you started with.

If you ever want to switch the helios suits back in, that's alright IMO, but don't take a ton, just make maybe 1 or 2 switch over.

Just remember that you're not the dominant force on the table, play like a cockroach. Bounce around just out of range, throw devilfish drones in the way of charges, etc. With tau it's not about sheer number of kills, it's about controlling the flow of battle.

Mu better, but I'd swap the gun drones out for shield drones.

Broadsides could probably use ASS.

p_gray99 wrote:Shas'el: Plasma Rifle, CIB, Targeting Array, HW Multi-Tracker, Gun drone: 110pts
2 XV8 Shas'ui: Plasma Rifles, Missle Pods, Multi-Trackers, Team Leader w/2 Gun drones: 139pts
2 XV8 Shas'ui: Plasma Rifles, Missle Pods, Multi-Trackers, Team Leader w/2 Gun drones

No sarcasm or meanness here, but why are you taking still GDs over SDs? Is it for the points cost?

I'd arrange your 4 (non-HQ) suits as one pair and two singles/Monats. For many reasons:
1. Each single can be upgraded to Team Leader, given a Target Array with both guns, and then the hwMT and maybe a hwDrone Controler & BK.
2. It splits your fire, good for you.
3. It forces the enemy to split his, bad for him.
4. It makes it harder for the enemy to run down and assault two Monats, instead of a pair (with drones).
5. Each will be easier to JSJ to LoS-blocking terrain.

Always spread the Crisis Suits as thin as you can, filling the Elite slots with singles, then pairs, the HQs (no 'vres) then trios and the bodyguard 'vres last.

p_gray99 wrote:6 Fire Warriors: 60pts
6 Fire Warriors: 60pts
6 Fire Warriors: 60pts
10 Kroot, 5 Hounds: 100pts

An option: You could combine the 18 FWs into two crews of 9, so each can be safe in the Pathfinders' d'fish. Three units of troops at 1500 is workable, even for tau. Or leave as is, but have one unit of FWs in Reserve, for a later game objective grab. IT kinda worked for me with Dark Eldar.

Photon Grenades. Beregond persuaded you to drop them. I read your reason why (to stay alive long enough for kroot to counter charge) and countered it, but I'm wondering why did you continue to keep 'em for a few updates ... until Beregond badgered you into relenting? Nicely, I ask.

p_gray99 wrote:3 Broadsides: Drone Controllers + 3 Gun Drones: 240pts
2 Broadsides: Drone Controllers + 2 Gun Drones: 160pts

In both, I'd upgrade a Team Leader, and just have him with two SDs (or GDs, as you prefer), but instead of a GD throw away 4+ ablative wound, I'd rather have another 2+/4++ ablative wound. Also, A.s.s. or Target Arrays are far better to make the b-sides more useful, even with the MarkerLight help you have. The GD's lousy BS and gun aren't worth considering for offensive power, IMHO.

p_gray99 wrote:So from being all about pathfinders and fire warriors with a few sniper drones it's become pretty much most people's standard list (possibly a few more pathfinders than usual).

I 'hear' your annoyance and resignation about this list being "pretty much most people's standard list". But there isn't much else that will work. Crisis Suits, PFs, b-sides, Railheads. FWs in the PFs' 'fish. Those are the units that work in the codex.

p_gray99 wrote:What should I do to it now?

Make the XV88 changes, fer sure.

How much experience have you had? A couple years or just started this summer? Nicely, I ask.

Also, did any of us recommend Advancedtautactica.com? There's the website for learning this army. It got my tau's game to be my winningest percentage army out of the six I have played in 7 years. In 4th ed, I managed 73% wins. Less so in 5e.

Brothererekose wrote:Also, did any of us recommend Advancedtautactica.com? There's the website for learning this army. It got my tau's game to be my winningest percentage army out of the six I have played in 7 years. In 4th ed, I managed 73% wins. Less so in 5e.

Tbh I avoid recommending it because I can't make up my mind about it's usefulness in 5th edition it's got some outdated stuff there that can give people the wrong impression. At least that's what I've found in my recent browses there.

Bad advice can lead to some very, very bad things being wholeheartedly seen as good by the newbies and it's difficult to convince them otherwise. Hell, my first list posted here was made after extensively browsing ATT to get back into the swing of things, and you and I both know that one went terribly wrong

Beregond wrote:Bad advice can lead to some very, very bad things being wholeheartedly seen as good by the newbies and it's difficult to convince them otherwise. Hell, my first list posted here was made after extensively browsing ATT to get back into the swing of things, and you and I both know that one went terribly wrong

Has it been so little time? You only joined dakka in July?

As for ATT, yeah, the out-dated articles are still there, as traffic slowed once 5e was in full swing. Perhaps, with the new book next year and 6e too, it'll get a flush of new tactica.

First off, thanks for the masses of feedback
Second, I'm not gonna bother with doing all the quotes I could because it'd become the world's longest post.

About the suggested upgrades (namely team leaders for the XV88s and XV8s, as well as splitting the XV8s into 3 squads), this would total at 95pts if I still have GDs rather than SDs. Otherwise I could do these upgrades but lose a broadside, and have 5pts spare (possibly a team leader's target lock, although I don't know where.
should I just split a 2-man squad into 2 squads, and forget the rest in return for a broadside, or lose the points somewhere elso, or simply go ahead and lose a broadside?

I was planning on the third FW squad to stay back + hold the objective, thanks for the advice about reserve.
I've been looking at the ATT but it doesn't give too much in the way of actual good tactics.

As for why it took so long to accept Beregond's advice, I'm a stubborn


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of ATT, I've just read a tactic on there (posted recently, not simply an ancient version 4 post), on fish of fury: use 4 fish full of 12 FW and with 2 squads of 8 Pathfinders backing them up, alongside Shadowsun and a multitude of broadsides, no Crisis suits.
Would this stand any chance of working?

p_gray99 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of ATT, I've just read a tactic on there (posted recently, not simply an ancient version 4 post), on fish of fury: use 4 fish full of 12 FW and with 2 squads of 8 Pathfinders backing them up, alongside Shadowsun and a multitude of broadsides, no Crisis suits.
Would this stand any chance of working?

In 4th edition it did. In 5th edition it doesn't even with the modifications. Too easy to drop the fish and more often than not the fish block LOS for your own firewarriors.

Thanks.