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Been playing Daemons for a little over a month now (and only began playing 5th Ed. a few weeks prior to beginning Daemons). Haven't tried too many variants of Daemon lists (for a lack of models), but I've enjoyed a lot of success with a few Fatecrusher builds. Not the most original, I know, but it's worked exceedingly well for me against my friend's foot-sloggy CSM. That's great, but I'm not sure how I'll fare against faster/more mechanized lists (and particularly Dark Eldar/Grey Knights, which both seem like they'd give me fits). Keeping in mind that I've yet to have a chance to actually play against either of those armies, here's my attempt at a 2000pt TAC list that will hopefully have a fighting chance even in my worst match-ups:

1 Bloodthirster (BotBG, Instrument) 260
1 Fateweaver 333 *

4 Bloodcrusher (Full Command) 200 *
4 Bloodcrusher (Full Command) 200
6 Fiends (Unholy Might) 190 *

8 Bloodletter 128 *
8 Bloodletter 128
5 Plaguebearer 75 *
5 Plaguebearer 75

1 Daemon Prince (MoN, Noxious Touch, Cloud of Flies, Iron Hide, Flight) 215
1 Daemon Prince (MoK, BotBG, Iron Hide, Flight) 195 *

Total: 1999

Note, the * indicates my typical "favored" units for deployment.

My strategy: Split my MC's and 'Crushers so I have numerous high priority threats near the enemy line immediately. They'll take a lot of shooting, which Fateweaver should mitigate to a point, but even if I don't get my Favored units, Bloodthirster and MoN-DP (and 4 more 'Crushers) have a lot of staying power in their own right. On top of that, I try and drop the Bloodletters as close as possible to enemy troops, giving me another unit that's hard to ignore. With all of those targets, a few 'Crushers (or at least the one with Icon) will almost always survive, giving my reserves a nice scatter-free welcome mat for their deep strikes.

Plaguebearers obviously go for objectives. Fiends either pick off smaller units, tie up shooty units in assault until the big guys are in range, contest objectives, or try and kill off weaker vehicles with their many S5 Rending attacks (and one S6!). Bloodthirster has an Instrument because I didn't know where better to stick 5 points. BotBG's in there for GK and other pesky Psykers. Hopefully the remainder is self-explanatory.

I would think 4 highly-mobile MC combined with 6 highly-mobile Fiends would be adequate for scrapping enemy armor, but I'm not sure. Many lists seem to pack in the maximum number of vehicles these days. I'm also worried how I'll fare against armies with high mobility (like DE). Granted, I get to deep strike wherever I like, but it seems like they could just run away and shoot from a safe distance until I'm dead. If I can't make it into assault, I don't have much else to offer.

Any suggestions to deal with the issues I'm foreseeing here? Or does my list seem adequate to deal with these problems? ...Or am I totally off-base in my assessment of the current environment? I'm aware Daemons aren't the most competitive option, and I don't expect to take home any trophies in the near future...I'm just looking for a list that will give me a good chance to win in most competitive games. Open to all critiques/suggestions bearing in mind that I intend to remain a CC-oriented list (I already get enough shooting done with my Necrons!).

Grey knights are nothing speacal. Actually other then purifiers they are just more expensive space marines with power weapons, that you really don't care about. One thing I have noticed our local daemon play do is slowly drift to more and more pick and blue. He runs mr fate, 2x6 fiends, 3 bloodcrushers, a mix of daemonettes and horrers with bolt, and blue princes with bolt.... mainly since my main armies are eldar and dark eldar...

Just so you know the dark eldar actually have a rulle on page 37.5 that states "though shall not lose to daemons, not even make a close game". So that's an uphill battle. Even more so if you don't have 6 or so bolts...

OneMeanDuck wrote:Just so you know the dark eldar actually have a rulle on page 37.5 that states "though shall not lose to daemons, not even make a close game". So that's an uphill battle. Even more so if you don't have 6 or so bolts...

Hah! I'll probably acquire more Fiends and Horrors over time. I'd like to eventually get two Tzeentch Heralds on Chariots as well. Not sure how well they'd all mesh with Fatecrusher, but I'd definitely like the flexibility to run other kinds of lists in the future. I might just have to accept Eldar/DE as a weak point for the time being...If lack of firepower is hurting against other armies, I'll probably try and work more bolts in sooner.

Thanks for your input!

The core for every demon army I run from 1.5k on up is 6x5 horrors with bolt. Some people will say that they aren't as survivable as plague bearers, but really any firepower my opponent is using on my horrors is firepower that should probably be directed at my DPs, Fateweaver, and crushers, so it works out ok for me.

I'm not a huge fan of MoK DPs. I'd try to find a way to get another MoN prince, or drop him down to a MoT Prince. Unholy Might on your Bloodthirster would also be a nice upgrade, points allowing. He doesn't really need an instrument.

For your waves, not sure you need to drop a plaguebearer squad first. Getting your second prince or Bloodthirster with the crushers and Fateweaver seems more important.

chriachrias wrote:I'm not a huge fan of MoK DPs. I'd try to find a way to get another MoN prince, or drop him down to a MoT Prince. Unholy Might on your Bloodthirster would also be a nice upgrade, points allowing. He doesn't really need an instrument.

For your waves, not sure you need to drop a plaguebearer squad first. Getting your second prince or Bloodthirster with the crushers and Fateweaver seems more important.

Why Unholy Might? Seems wasteful. 2d6 arpen.. and he has furious charge? He's strong enough.

Getting to Str 9 with Unholy Might is just more assurance you're going to pen a Land Raider. And that depends on your meta, I suppose. At Str 8, you'd need at least a 7 on 2d6 to pen. The odds are better than 50:50, but I feel more comfortable with the odds at Str 9.

chriachrias wrote:I'm not a huge fan of MoK DPs. I'd try to find a way to get another MoN prince, or drop him down to a MoT Prince. Unholy Might on your Bloodthirster would also be a nice upgrade, points allowing. He doesn't really need an instrument.

Haha, I agree about the Instrument. It is mostly pointless. I just had 1994 points and wasn't sure where else to spend the last 6. Guess I could drop a Bloodletter for the Might, but I'm not sure if he needs that either.

I've heard that opinion a lot about MoK DPs. I agree that the MoN is all-around better, and I probably will pick up a second soon. That said, I had three reasons for going MoK in this list: MoN's base 4 attacks can be frustratingly ineffectual, a second BotBG equals more defense against GK, and I've already got a real pretty-looking MoK DP model painted up. I guess I'll see how well it works in practice, but you are probably right. T6 should be a better defense most the time..but Psykers have me spooked!

chriachrias wrote:For your waves, not sure you need to drop a plaguebearer squad first. Getting your second prince or Bloodthirster with the crushers and Fateweaver seems more important.

I agree the Plaguebearers won't do anything first round, nor will they do much else for the rest of the game. My thought, though, was that I should go for mostly equal halves. 1/3 games I won't get my favored half, and ending up with one MC and two squads of grubby Plaguebearers could be a really good way to lose myself a game. Putting two MC in each group means I've got a guaranteed 2 on the board the first turn of every game. Another problem: if I bring in 3 at once, there's a lot higher chance that one or more will mishap (or have to deploy far out of attack range for safety's sake). From round two on, I'll almost always have a Bloodcrusher Icon to DS in on. Given how crowded my assaults get early on (when there are still a lot of models alive!)---not to mention how expensive each MC is, I really want that mishap insurance.

chriachrias wrote:Getting to Str 9 with Unholy Might is just more assurance you're going to pen a Land Raider. And that depends on your meta, I suppose. At Str 8, you'd need at least a 7 on 2d6 to pen. The odds are better than 50:50, but I feel more comfortable with the odds at Str 9.

I'm inclined to agree with Cottonjaw on this. True the odds are better at S9, but a charging BT has 6 attacks. At S7+1, odds are at least one of those are going to penetrate if the LR moved 6" or less. If it didn't move: it's toast. A lot of the time, though, I'm content to ignore a LR if it isn't interfering with mission objectives. In my (limited) experience, a single LR can't do very much damage per turn against 4 4-wound MC with rerollable invulnerables. If I'm seeing a lot of 2+ LR lists though...then you might be on to something!