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I've searched both the forum and rule book for this, but is there any rule that requires you to use a special weapon if you have one (other than wielding 2 different special weapons)? For example, if I have a Sergeant with a PF, do I have to use it? Or can I say he is using his CCW and pistol, thus striking at normal Init at regular Strength. Please don't reply with anything like "if you trade your CCW for a PF, so you don't have it anymore". I really don't care about wargear swaps and what a specific model can/cannot have.

P42, Main Rulebook, Lower Right, "A normal and a special weapon"

"All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, benefit from the special weapon's bonuses."

That sentence was changed in the errata:

Page 42 – ‘A normal and a special weapon’, first
paragraph. The second sentence should be changed to:
All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the
special weapon’s bonuses and penalties.

Adding the penalty part changes the rule slightly.

I don't think I worded my question very well. Basically if I have a PF do I have to use it in CC or can I strike at normal Init, normal Str, no power weapon?

Yes. Both of our quotes said that you have to use it.

"All of their attacks, including the bonus attack, use the
special weapon’s bonuses and penalties. "

You cannot choose.

Agreed. As pretre said, you use the PF in CC, no choice, no holding back.

If you had a second special weapon, you would, however, be able to choose. But no, special+normal, no choice.

Yep. Page 42 lists each scenario.

pretre wrote:Yep. Page 42 lists each scenario.

It is lacking the scenario when you have 2 (or more) Special CCWs and 1 (or more) normal one. But, lets not open that can of worms again.

"Two Different Special Weapons"
"Two normal close combat weapons"
are both there.
Maybe you mean more than 2.

pretre wrote:"Two Different Special Weapons"
"Two normal close combat weapons"
are both there.
Maybe you mean more than 2.

Yes. I mean like Eldrad who has the Staff of Ulthamar, a Witchblade, and a Shuriken Pistol. Does he get an extra CC attack?

(Hint: There is no answer to this question that will satisfy everyone.)

Oh yeah, >2 is a PITA. Fair enough.

Grakmar wrote:Yes. I mean like Eldrad who has the Staff of Ulthamar, a Witchblade, and a Shuriken Pistol. Does he get an extra CC attack?

(Hint: There is no answer to this question that will satisfy everyone.)

Well there is an answer that will satisfy everyone, but they have to accept what is written on P.42

Under "Two different special weapons" it states: "when its their turn to attack these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two [different special] weapons. (Such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!)."

So if you are using "Two different special weapons" you do not get the bonus attack, if you are using a normal and a special weapon, you get the bonus attack.

They could have made it even more clear, but It is clear enough if you read the passages.

As for the OP:

Happyjew wrote: For example, if I have a Sergeant with a PF, do I have to use it? Or can I say he is using his CCW and pistol, thus striking at normal Init at regular Strength.

If you have 1 special CCW and 2 normal CCW's there is nothing making you attack with the special weapon over the two normal CCW's

Except a sergeant can't have a ccw, fist and pistol. You must exchange one of the later to the the former.

da40korks wrote:Except a sergeant can't have a ccw, fist and pistol. You must exchange one of the later to the the former.

you must not have read the OP:

Happyjew wrote: Please don't reply with anything like "if you trade your CCW for a PF, so you don't have it anymore". I really don't care about wargear swaps and what a specific model can/cannot have.

Happyjew wrote:I've searched both the forum and rule book for this, but is there any rule that requires you to use a special weapon if you have one (other than wielding 2 different special weapons)? For example, if I have a Sergeant with a PF, do I have to use it? Or can I say he is using his CCW and pistol, thus striking at normal Init at regular Strength. Please don't reply with anything like "if you trade your CCW for a PF, so you don't have it anymore". I really don't care about wargear swaps and what a specific model can/cannot have.

...then why did you ask this question?? This question is ALL ABOUT what you can/cannot have. That's like asking a cop "Hey, I know it says that the speed limit on this road is 55, but can I go ahead & do 100? I'm really not worried about what is legal/illegal."

The simple answer is "NO." If you have a PF, you have to use it. Why? Because you gave up your CCW to have it. Therefore - you have no CCW, just a PF, ergo, you would have to use the PF. Saying you don't care about wargear swaps really indicates that you don't CARE what the answer to this question is, you just wanted to ask an arbitrary question that you could have discovered the answer to just by reading the rulebook (or the relevent Codex for that matter).

~Vryce

It's a hypothetical question. The specific example is not important.

The rulebook does not let models choose to 'switch off' a PF unless they have another 'special CCW' (Power Swords, etc).

The rulebook does not account for situations where models have more than two CCWs. Likewise the FAQ. There are no RAW to tell us what happens if someone happens to be carrying a PF, chainsword, and pistol. There are no RAW to tell us if someone with a PF, PS and pistol gets +1A for the pistol when choosing to use their PS instead of their PF.

Though they clearly intended for models to have more than 2 CCW's.

Look at Marneus Agustus Calgar, he has 2 power fists and a Power Sword.

So if you have more than two weapons, you have to decide what weapons you are using in any given combat, then look up the rules for said weapon combination.

I absolutely agree that they intended for models to have a backpack full of stabby stuff. They just neglected to write sufficiently complex rules for how a model with varied weapons work, and have yet to FAQ this.

lindsay40k wrote:I absolutely agree that they intended for models to have a backpack full of stabby stuff. They just neglected to write sufficiently complex rules for how a model with varied weapons work, and have yet to FAQ this.

But they do not really need an FaQ.

However you do have to read the rules for weapons on P.42 very closely.

I've read the rules, and they only account for models that carry one or two weapons.

Take the example of a model with a PF, PS and pistol. PF gets its bonuses. PS and pistol gets PS bonuses and +1A. Except in this case, we have a model with two special weapons of which they choose one to get the benefits of, and pg42 states that this means they never get the bonus for using two weapons.

To put this another way: a model has a power sword that can easily be put into a scabbard on their back. They have a poisoned 4+ dagger they can easily put into their modified boot. They have two holstered pistols. Carrying any of these weapons would not stop them from dual-wielding two others.

If they fight a mech with a nega-field of negating all attacks that ignore saves and an immunity to all poisoned weapons, under the current RAW they can't choose to dual-wield pistols as mundane CCW because models with two special CCW's never get +1A for using 2CCW. In fact, they can't even choose to use one pistol to beat the mech up with, because under the current RAW models with more than one special CCW must choose to use one of their special CCW's.

A genuine example would be Grotsnik. He can choose to use his Urty Syringe instead of his Power Klaw. RAW, he can't gain +1A when doing so (for his Slugga), because models with 2 special CCW don't get +1A.

The rules simply don't account for models that are armed to the teeth for melee.

If you read the weapons section it makes reference to using/wielding weapons.

if you look at number of attacks on P.37 you can see that "Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit"

This says that models can only use 2 weapons in CC.

Coupled with P.42 "Fighting with two single-handed weapons" solidifies that you can only fight with two weapons.

Further on it states under Two different special weapons "They never get the bonus attack for using two weapons".

So it only matters what you are using, and not what you are armed with.

DeathReaper wrote:So it only matters what you are using, and not what you are armed with.

Which seems to question where the rules are for choosing which weapons can be used, or any rules allowing choice in weapon use.
Otherwise, there is no difference.

Due to the rules about only fighting with 2 weapons, you have to pick 2 to use.

if you have 3, you have to pick two to fight with.

DeathReaper wrote:if you have 3, you have to pick two to fight with.

I read people write that often enough, but unfortunately none of them wrote it in the rules that I have seen.

Except they did, when they wrote that you can only fight with a max of two weapons.

That tells you, if you have 3 or more, you must pick two to fight with.

DeathReaper wrote:Except they did, when they wrote that you can only fight with a max of two weapons.

That tells you, if you have 3 or more, you must pick two to fight with.

Quote please?
I would also love to read the quote about how to deal with models that have more than 2 when deciding which to use.

P.37 "Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit"

This says that models use 2 weapons in CC.

Coupled with P.42 "Fighting with two single-handed weapons" solidifies that you can only fight with two weapons.

Further on it states under Two different special weapons "They never get the bonus attack for using two weapons".

So it only matters what you are using, and not what you are armed with.

With Eldrad the rule is very specific about the choosing, and what effect it will have.

If you use the Witchblade and Pistol on the charge, The old man gets his max, 3 attacks. Wounding on a 2+.

If you decide you want to use the Staff in CC, it is a two handed weapon, therefore on the charge, he would get 2 attacks. Wounds on a 2+ and ignores armour saves.

So here is a clear example of getting to choose which weapons you use.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I say, while it may not be laid out, it is very clear that yes you can choose which CC weapons you want to use if you have more to choose from.