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DR - no, you are simply making up what that p37 quote means.

It does NOT mean you only fight with 2 weapons. Just that having more than 2 confers no bonus.

You are making a gross error in logic there. You have nothing which states "models must choose 2 weapons if they have more than 2" in the rules.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DR - no, you are simply making up what that p37 quote means.

It does NOT mean you only fight with 2 weapons. Just that having more than 2 confers no bonus.

You are making a gross error in logic there. You have nothing which states "models must choose 2 weapons if they have more than 2" in the rules.

That is because it does not need to say that, since P.42, gives us the rules for "Fighting with two weapons"

It says having 3 or more confers no bonus, and we have rules for fighting with two weapons.

Logic states that we are only allowed to use as many weapons as the rules allow us to use. In this case Two weapons.

So if we have more than two, simple logic needs to be applied again, and we have to choose two weapons to fight with if we have more than two, since we are only allowed to fight with two weapons.

So your response to "show the rule allowing you to choose" is to, yet again, make stuff up and claim "simple logic" this time?

There are no rules for having 3 or more CCW and effectively using them in close combat. None.

You claimed one thing - that the rules onpage 37 say you can only use 2 close combat weapons - which is demonstrably false.

Shadowseer_Kim wrote:With Eldrad the rule is very specific about the choosing, and what effect it will have.

If you use the Witchblade and Pistol on the charge, The old man gets his max, 3 attacks. Wounding on a 2+.

If you decide you want to use the Staff in CC, it is a two handed weapon, therefore on the charge, he would get 2 attacks. Wounds on a 2+ and ignores armour saves.

So here is a clear example of getting to choose which weapons you use.

So I say, while it may not be laid out, it is very clear that yes you can choose which CC weapons you want to use if you have more to choose from.

Whilst I absolutely agree that the 'common sense' interpretation allows for Eldrad to put away his staff and fight with sword and pistol, and that it's a reasonable assumption that this was the intention of the writers, again I can't see a written rule that to my understanding supports this. There's an outside chance - supported by the passage about 'carrying too many complex weapons' - that the writers want you to get +1A for only carrying only two melee weapons without having a load of scabbards, holsters and overflowing pockets getting in the way of balletic swordplay/John Woo gunfighting, or perhaps 'switching off' a massive great Power Fist and it suddenly not restricting your movement as you try to firststrike an Ork with the hunting knife you somehow managed to grip with your clumsy mecha-apefist to complement the laspistol that didn't improve your combat effectiveness when there was a current flowing through the gorilla arm.

This would be somewhat reminiscent of 2ed, where carrying a two-handed weapon would prevent you from wielding two one-handed melee weapons.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So your response to "show the rule allowing you to choose" is to, yet again, make stuff up and claim "simple logic" this time?

There are no rules for having 3 or more CCW and effectively using them in close combat. None.

You claimed one thing - that the rules onpage 37 say you can only use 2 close combat weapons - which is demonstrably false.

P. 42, says you fight with 2 CCW's Explicitly.

Therefore if you have 3 or more, and you can only use 2, you are forced to pick two to fight with, since you can not fight with more than 2 CCW's

you are the one thats making stuff up, and claiming "There are no rules for having 3 or more CCW" when clearly there does not need to be, since they give permission to use 2 CCW's so that is all you can use.

No, I DID NOT state that. You made up the "you are allowed to choose, before getting to page 42, which two weapons you are going to use" part.

Your "therefore" is supposition. You know, that thing not supported by rules?

They give permission to use 2 CCW. They do NOT give you, ANYWHERE AT ALL, permission to *choose* which 2 to use when you have more than 2.

.... this subject comes up a lot ...

1) you must make any special attacks you have however this is not the same as you must use any special weapons
2) the rules for weapons gives options for using a single weapon or using two weapons, if you have more then two weapons then you must select two weapons before using any of the rules for fighting with 2 close combat weapons. Every one of the rules afterwards (including 2 different special weapons) are part of that main rule and cannot be taken into account if you have more then two weapons being used.
3) wield is use not have ...

Thanks, Tri!
I love that picture.
That and the hammer are iconic, LOL.

Tri - and part 2 is entirely without rules support. Which is the point I'm trying to make....

kirsanth wrote:Thanks, Tri!
I love that picture.
That and the hammer are iconic, LOL.

I know I've not had an avatar as recognisable since but its not same without gwar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Tri - and part 2 is entirely without rules support. Which is the point I'm trying to make....

Oh hell i agree that the game brakes if you assume that you must look at those rules and assume you use the one that matches what you model has.

If you step back and say my model is using X and Y equipment (or Just X) and then refer to that page then you can use it to see the effect and the game continues along merrily

Its just the unsupported "choose before you get to page 42" way then gives an advantage - you can gain an additional attack by holding an extra weapon, but wouldnt if you put that weapon down.

that inconsistency, especially with the "never!" in the rules on page 42, seems silly

nosferatu1001 wrote:Its just the unsupported "choose before you get to page 42" way then gives an advantage - you can gain an additional attack by holding an extra weapon, but wouldnt if you put that weapon down.

that inconsistency, especially with the "never!" in the rules on page 42, seems silly

... right Using two different special weapons you will "never" get a bonus attack. That is part of the rule "Fighting with two close combat weapons" if you are not fighting with two close combat weapons then you don't look at that list.

If a model has 2 power weapons and two normal close combat weapons, they do not get 3 bonus attacks (1 for 2 CCW, 1 for SCCW and NCCW, 1 for matching SCCW) they are only able to use a maximum of two weapons ... so you pick two and then check.

Yet that gains you an advantage - one unsupported by the rules.

Go ahead and pick, but dont try to get the extra attack you're not really entitled to. That having a cake as well as eating it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet that gains you an advantage - one unsupported by the rules.

Go ahead and pick, but dont try to get the extra attack you're not really entitled to. That having a cake as well as eating it.

... really now you are call a specific part of one rule and using it against me while ignore the rest of the rule. You cannot fight with more the two weapon because there are not rules for doing so. So to fight with two weapon you must choose two and then consult the list. Only if you are fighting with two different special weapon must you choose again and not get a bonus attack.

No, im saying that, IF you are going to make rules up then making up a rule that gives you least advantage is probably the way forward

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, im saying that, IF you are going to make rules up then making up a rule that gives you least advantage is probably the way forward

Oh I see ... No. It is quite possible to use those rule for models so long as you remove the expectation that you must use every thing. In 4th it was spelt out that you didn't have to use a weapon. All though that's now missing there still isn't any requirement to use anything (point 1# special attacks not special weapons).

If you do choose to use a weapon then the rules on that page explain what the possible combinations are and what effects they'll have.

I am fully, 100% and totally aware of what the rules on page 42 say, and what they do not say.

They do NOT, in any way, give you the ability to choose a subset of 2 weapons to use from 3+ weapons.

So, in order to actually fight when you have more than 2 weapons, you have to make up a rule - and, in so doing, you shoudl probably make one that confers the least benefit to you as you can.

nosferatu1001 wrote:I am fully, 100% and totally aware of what the rules on page 42 say, and what they do not say.

They do NOT, in any way, give you the ability to choose a subset of 2 weapons to use from 3+ weapons.

So, in order to actually fight when you have more than 2 weapons, you have to make up a rule - and, in so doing, you shoudl probably make one that confers the least benefit to you as you can.

Its merely a list of what can be used and the effect of using that combination.

You can never use 3+ weapons but that's not a problem as you can use 1 or 2 weapons. Then you look to see what effect that(/those) weapon(/s) will have.

Fine.

Now find a rule letting you choose which of those weapons you are going to use.

You dont have such a rule. So, again, when making rules up, dont make up one that benefits you more than necessarily.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Fine.

Now find a rule letting you choose which of those weapons you are going to use.

You dont have such a rule. So, again, when making rules up, dont make up one that benefits you more than necessarily.

Fun lets see if I can find anything ... Well there's no rules point to this section at all but there is one rule that might cover this situation ...

Some model are equipped with two single-handed weapons the can use in close combat, with the rules given bellow for the different possible combinations ...

A mould with 3+ weapons also has 2 weapons they can use but even though they have more they don't have to use them. They simply can.

Vryce wrote:

Happyjew wrote:I've searched both the forum and rule book for this, but is there any rule that requires you to use a special weapon if you have one (other than wielding 2 different special weapons)? For example, if I have a Sergeant with a PF, do I have to use it? Or can I say he is using his CCW and pistol, thus striking at normal Init at regular Strength. Please don't reply with anything like "if you trade your CCW for a PF, so you don't have it anymore". I really don't care about wargear swaps and what a specific model can/cannot have.

...then why did you ask this question?? This question is ALL ABOUT what you can/cannot have. That's like asking a cop "Hey, I know it says that the speed limit on this road is 55, but can I go ahead & do 100? I'm really not worried about what is legal/illegal."

The simple answer is "NO." If you have a PF, you have to use it. Why? Because you gave up your CCW to have it. Therefore - you have no CCW, just a PF, ergo, you would have to use the PF. Saying you don't care about wargear swaps really indicates that you don't CARE what the answer to this question is, you just wanted to ask an arbitrary question that you could have discovered the answer to just by reading the rulebook (or the relevent Codex for that matter).

~Vryce

Not to interrupt the ongoing debate that has taken hold in this thread....I just saw this post and wanted to point something out....

In close combat, a pistol does count as a CCW....therefore you do have a second CCW, not just the PF.

Tri wrote:

Some model are equipped with two single-handed weapons the can use in close combat, with the rules given bellow for the different possible combinations ...

A mould with 3+ weapons also has 2 weapons they can use but even though they have more they don't have to use them. They simply can.

Yes, they can use the weapons. There's still no rule telling you how to select which weapon to use.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tri wrote:

Some model are equipped with two single-handed weapons the can use in close combat, with the rules given bellow for the different possible combinations ...

A mould with 3+ weapons also has 2 weapons they can use but even though they have more they don't have to use them. They simply can.

Yes, they can use the weapons. There's still no rule telling you how to select which weapon to use.

CAn is permission to but does not require them to ether. They don't have to use every combination they can use one.

Odd, i dont see "combination" or "can choose to use 2 of their weapons instead of all" or anything else in there that would be an actual rule.

So, in the absence of a rule allowing you to do what you keep claiming you can do, you take the least advantageous position when you make a rule up.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, in the absence of a rule allowing you to do what you keep claiming you can do, you take the least advantageous position when you make a rule up.

Fine model can make no attacks with their weapons as they are not covered.

so what would be the least advantageous?

Power fist = Str doubled, ini 1.

Power sword = ini 4.

They're both pretty advantageous, and asking to rule on which one is moreso seems rather subjective.

Unit1126PLL wrote:so what would be the least advantageous?

Power fist = Str doubled, ini 1.

Power sword = ini 4.

They're both pretty advantageous, and asking to rule on which one is moreso seems rather subjective.

That's easy, the models attacks ignore armour saves but strike at I1 at base strength least advantageous you can get.

I don't see the big deal with choosing 2, out of 3 weapons to fight with, a striking scorpion exarch has a pistol a power claw and a scorpion chainsword, the pistol is built into the power claw, as DR has proved multiple times you just choose 2 weapons, however the way i see it is, you can't use 2 special weapons, because of the multiple ruling, such as:
Scorpion sword and power claw, S7(claw doubles S and scorp sword +1S)
This means you can't reap both benefits, leaving the available:
Sword+pistol = S4, I5,+1A doesn't ignore armour
Claw+pistol = S6, I1 Ignores armour

Unit1126PLL wrote:so what would be the least advantageous?

Power fist = Str doubled, ini 1.

Power sword = ini 4.

They're both pretty advantageous, and asking to rule on which one is moreso seems rather subjective.

MikZor wrote:That's easy, the models attacks ignore armour saves but strike at I1 at base strength least advantageous you can get.

I don't see the big deal with choosing 2, out of 3 weapons to fight with, a striking scorpion exarch has a pistol a power claw and a scorpion chainsword, the pistol is built into the power claw, as DR has proved multiple times you just choose 2 weapons, however the way i see it is, you can't use 2 special weapons, because of the multiple ruling, such as:
Scorpion sword and power claw, S7(claw doubles S and scorp sword +1S)
This means you can't reap both benefits, leaving the available:
Sword+pistol = S4, I5,+1A doesn't ignore armour
Claw+pistol = S6, I1 Ignores armour

Gah both of you .... Malgar has three weapon (well technically two but) he has a pair of power fists (gauntlets of something) and a power sword. He can ether get an extra attack by using power fists (sacrificing Initiative for strength and an extra attack) Or use the sword and strike at his initiative.

The Exarch does not have a pistol ... Its a shuriken catapult which is an Assault 2 weapon.

Calgar aside(I will get to him in a minute); what rule allows you to choose what weapon you are using?

Now look at the latter half of that rule.

When you have a model with multiple weapons and 2 of them are different Special CCWs you cannot ever gain the 2CCW bonus attack.

Calgar's Gauntlets of Ultramar, while being a single weapon, are also a "pair of Power-fists" which should allow for the 2CCW bonus, if not for the fact that he still had to choose to use the guantlets over the Power sword, so falls under that Choice rule.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Calgar aside(I will get to him in a minute); what rule allows you to choose what weapon you are using?

Now look at the latter half of that rule.

When you have a model with multiple weapons and 2 of them are different Special CCWs you cannot ever gain the 2CCW bonus attack.

Calgar's Gauntlets of Ultramar, while being a single weapon, are also a "pair of Power-fists" which should allow for the 2CCW bonus, if not for the fact that he still had to choose to use the guantlets over the Power sword, so falls under that Choice rule.

Not have, when you are using two different special weapons.

Look at P.42 closely

Under the "Fighting with two single-handed weapons" section, this establishes models fight/use two weapons. under "two different special weapons" section, as in when fighting with two different special weapons, it states "they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons"this refers to two different special weapons since that is the section it is in.

Let me repeat that "they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons" this refers to two different special weapons since that is the section it is in.

So that section tells us that you never get the bonus attack for using two [different special] weapons.

If they have three different weapons then the two they fight with/use/wield will determine the rules that they use for that combat.

So, for Calgar, he either fights with:
The Gauntlets of Ultramar (A pair of power fists)
or
a Power weapon and one power fist

those are his options, since he can not fight with more than two weapons. we must pick a set of two to fight with, then look at the rules for the weapons we are fighting with, under the rules for "Fighting with two single-handed weapons"

The rule that says that models "Fighting with two single-handed weapons" tells us that if a model has more than two weapons, they can not use them all to attack with. Two is a subset of three, so Calgar has three sets of two, and since we can only use two weapons, we must have to pick which set to use before we look at the rules for "Fighting with two single-handed weapons". Is it a bit of a grey area, sure, but its easy to tell that we have to pick two weapons to fight with because we are told we are only permitted to be "Fighting with two single-handed weapons" and not more than that.