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So, Chaos is fueled by the emotions of human beings / other races.

Rather than building anti-daemon forces (or perhaps in combination with building them) could the Imperium of Man try to lobotomize most people?

I know it sounds extreme, but wouldn't the removal of the emotional capability of most human beings necessitate a DRAMATIC fall in the capabilities of the Chaos Gods?

My second question is: does the Imperium know that the chaos gods are fueled by emotion? Or is this an "omnipotent reader" effect?

Just asking,
Unit1126PLL

Well sure. We could also just kill off everyone in their sleep and then we'd cut right down on chaos.

So you want a entire race of people to hamstring themselves to face a single army? A lobotomy makes you a living zombie, basically. That's a gak way for a workforce to run.

People react vastly differently to such a procedure. I mean, the logic is solid...but then the Imperium would have billions of blinking zombies and while yes, technically Chaos would suffer...then the Imperium would be overrun by aggressive Xenos since it no longer has the gears to drive the war machine...

What I always found interesting about the setting of 40k is the "vicious cycle" the Imperium exists in. On one hand, it needs to employ tyranny, execution, even torture to maintain a modicum of stability - on the other, it is these things that fuel the forces of Chaos even further ...

Actually, if you have read Legion by Dan Abnett (and this really is a major spoiler, do not read this if you plan on reading that novel yet),

So, yes. Kill all humans is possibly a solution.

Ok, just checking. And good to hear some others had the idea too.

Thanks for the data!

And yes, I suppose zombies aren't necessarily the best factory-workers...

...so servitorize them! or do the Mechanicus-style Rite of Pure Thought where they retain higher functions but lose the capability to feel emotion.

Servitors are of limited usefulness and the Imperium lacks the resources to undertake such an operation anyway.

Skylifter wrote:Actually, if you have read Legion by Dan Abnett (and this really is a major spoiler, do not read this if you plan on reading that novel yet),

Spoiler:

the complete annihilation of humanity would also make chaos completely powerless. Or at least, some people think it would, in-universe. That is why in Legion, a cabal of a myriad of alien races (and a few humans) tries to get the Alpha Legion to join Horus rebellion, because they believe that if Horus were victorious, he would destroy humanity, while if the Emperor won, humanity would slowly decay, all the time fuelling the power of chaos. Which, ironically, happened in spite of the AL joining Horus.

So, yes. Kill all humans is possibly a solution.

That's not going to help the Imperium, I don't think.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Ok, just checking. And good to hear some others had the idea too.

Thanks for the data!

And yes, I suppose zombies aren't necessarily the best factory-workers...

...so servitorize them! or do the Mechanicus-style Rite of Pure Thought where they retain higher functions but lose the capability to feel emotion.

I'm certain that they don't have the resources to servitize the whole of humanity. Then they aren't really human, just machines.

iproxtaco wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Ok, just checking. And good to hear some others had the idea too.

Thanks for the data!

And yes, I suppose zombies aren't necessarily the best factory-workers...

...so servitorize them! or do the Mechanicus-style Rite of Pure Thought where they retain higher functions but lose the capability to feel emotion.

I'm certain that they don't have the resources to servitize the whole of humanity. Then they aren't really human, just machines.

Then it's still the eradication of humanity as a concept. Sure, the Mechanicum would be happy to oblige, even if they don't have the resources, but it's faith that keep humanity together, faith in the Emperor. Why take the one unifying thing away from them?

iproxtaco wrote:Then it's still the eradication of humanity as a concept. Sure, the Mechanicum would be happy to oblige, even if they don't have the resources, but it's faith that keep humanity together, faith in the Emperor. Why take the one unifying thing away from them?

Because they'll need to be unified still, or they'll suffer from Mindlock! lol

iproxtaco wrote:

Skylifter wrote:Actually, if you have read Legion by Dan Abnett (and this really is a major spoiler, do not read this if you plan on reading that novel yet),

Spoiler:

the complete annihilation of humanity would also make chaos completely powerless. Or at least, some people think it would, in-universe. That is why in Legion, a cabal of a myriad of alien races (and a few humans) tries to get the Alpha Legion to join Horus rebellion, because they believe that if Horus were victorious, he would destroy humanity, while if the Emperor won, humanity would slowly decay, all the time fuelling the power of chaos. Which, ironically, happened in spite of the AL joining Horus.

So, yes. Kill all humans is possibly a solution.

Well... it would eliminate the Imperium. But it would also eliminate chaos. I think it would then be a matter of Orks or Tyranids as overall winner.

All this would do is make life (Or unlife) much easier for the Tyranids and Necrons. Orks will be sad though, since now the 'umies can't put up a good fight.

Lobotomising everyone may starve Chaos, but it would make themselves unable to defend against their other foes.

Skylifter wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Skylifter wrote:Actually, if you have read Legion by Dan Abnett (and this really is a major spoiler, do not read this if you plan on reading that novel yet),

Spoiler:

the complete annihilation of humanity would also make chaos completely powerless. Or at least, some people think it would, in-universe. That is why in Legion, a cabal of a myriad of alien races (and a few humans) tries to get the Alpha Legion to join Horus rebellion, because they believe that if Horus were victorious, he would destroy humanity, while if the Emperor won, humanity would slowly decay, all the time fuelling the power of chaos. Which, ironically, happened in spite of the AL joining Horus.

So, yes. Kill all humans is possibly a solution.

Well... it would eliminate the Imperium. But it would also eliminate chaos. I think it would then be a matter of Orks or Tyranids as overall winner.

It basically already is anwyay. Humanity is on the decline, not the rise.

If they lobotomized themselves to nullify Chaos, then Orks would kill them. Or Tyranids would eat them. Etc

Besides, Chaos can corrupt animals, or hell, even rocks and machines utterly without emotions. A lobotomized person could be corrupted-- perhaps even easier than a non-lobotomized one due to their lack of willpower.

Skylifter wrote:Actually, if you have read Legion by Dan Abnett (and this really is a major spoiler, do not read this if you plan on reading that novel yet),

Spoiler:

the complete annihilation of humanity would also make chaos completely powerless. Or at least, some people think it would, in-universe. That is why in Legion, a cabal of a myriad of alien races (and a few humans) tries to get the Alpha Legion to join Horus rebellion, because they believe that if Horus were victorious, he would destroy humanity, while if the Emperor won, humanity would slowly decay, all the time fuelling the power of chaos. Which, ironically, happened in spite of the AL joining Horus.

So, yes. Kill all humans is possibly a solution.

I don't think there was anything "ironic" about it. The cabal wanted humanity dead for a very simple reason: humans were killing them... in droves. This had nothing at all to do with the power of chaos, that was just a simple excuse to further drive a wedge in the human's armed forces. If Alpha legion had sided with the Emperor instead of Horus it would have made the heresy much harder to pull off with the very distinct possibility that the Emperor would have been able to complete his web way project thereby dominating the immaterium.

Also, the part about Chaos being fuelled entirely by human emotions is a stinking pile of gak; after all humans didn't create Slaanesh.. The Eldar did that all on their own. Further, the fluff has multiple areas that talk about the disruption and transformation of the immaterium due to all of the fighting that occurred between the old ones and the necrons... Long long before humans were even created...

Fear the Alien and do NOT trust them. I guarantee they don't have humanities best interests at heart. This was one of Alpharius mistakes. The next one was trusting that Horus was making the right decision. Alpharius was already leaning towards followng Horus due to their close bond, and needed another push to get them going. The Cabal provided that push with a very detailed set of lies which allowed Alpha Legion to "believe" that it would be the Emperors will for humanity to go out quickly instead of through years and years of torture. The problem with that is those were only two possible futures, there were others...

While a lobotomized person would be a poor choice to fight Chaos, I think a sociopath might be a decent choice. They don't feel emotions, and are just as capable of being cunning tacticians as anyone else.

Jimsolo wrote:While a lobotomized person would be a poor choice to fight Chaos, I think a sociopath might be a decent choice. They don't feel emotions, and are just as capable of being cunning tacticians as anyone else.

That is, uh, not what a sociopath is. They can feel emotions.

Sociopath's lack of empathy or feeling for others would make them perfect for Chaos, they think only for themselves and will do whatever they want to satisfy their desires even if it's recklessly dangerous. That's basically a Chaos Aspiring Champion.

Harriticus wrote:Sociopath's lack of empathy or feeling for others would make them perfect for Chaos, they think only for themselves and will do whatever they want to satisfy their desires even if it's recklessly dangerous. That's basically a Chaos Aspiring Champion.

Of Slaanesh.

clively wrote:

Skylifter wrote:Actually, if you have read Legion by Dan Abnett (and this really is a major spoiler, do not read this if you plan on reading that novel yet),

Spoiler:

the complete annihilation of humanity would also make chaos completely powerless. Or at least, some people think it would, in-universe. That is why in Legion, a cabal of a myriad of alien races (and a few humans) tries to get the Alpha Legion to join Horus rebellion, because they believe that if Horus were victorious, he would destroy humanity, while if the Emperor won, humanity would slowly decay, all the time fuelling the power of chaos. Which, ironically, happened in spite of the AL joining Horus.

So, yes. Kill all humans is possibly a solution.

I don't think there was anything "ironic" about it. The cabal wanted humanity dead for a very simple reason: humans were killing them... in droves. This had nothing at all to do with the power of chaos, that was just a simple excuse to further drive a wedge in the human's armed forces. If Alpha legion had sided with the Emperor instead of Horus it would have made the heresy much harder to pull off with the very distinct possibility that the Emperor would have been able to complete his web way project thereby dominating the immaterium.

Also, the part about Chaos being fuelled entirely by human emotions is a stinking pile of gak; after all humans didn't create Slaanesh.. The Eldar did that all on their own. Further, the fluff has multiple areas that talk about the disruption and transformation of the immaterium due to all of the fighting that occurred between the old ones and the necrons... Long long before humans were even created...

Fear the Alien and do NOT trust them. I guarantee they don't have humanities best interests at heart. This was one of Alpharius mistakes. The next one was trusting that Horus was making the right decision. Alpharius was already leaning towards followng Horus due to their close bond, and needed another push to get them going. The Cabal provided that push with a very detailed set of lies which allowed Alpha Legion to "believe" that it would be the Emperors will for humanity to go out quickly instead of through years and years of torture. The problem with that is those were only two possible futures, there were others...

I like that interpretation. And I especially like that it can be read in different ways - which is what makes good fluff, imo.

Void__Dragon wrote:All this would do is make life (Or unlife) much easier for the Tyranids and Necrons. Orks will be sad though, since now the 'umies can't put up a good fight.

Lobotomising everyone may starve Chaos, but it would make themselves unable to defend against their other foes.

Actually they don't think humies are to tough. I know ghazghkull respects only Yarrick and Belial as enemies.

clively wrote:

Skylifter wrote:Actually, if you have read Legion by Dan Abnett (and this really is a major spoiler, do not read this if you plan on reading that novel yet),

Spoiler:

the complete annihilation of humanity would also make chaos completely powerless. Or at least, some people think it would, in-universe. That is why in Legion, a cabal of a myriad of alien races (and a few humans) tries to get the Alpha Legion to join Horus rebellion, because they believe that if Horus were victorious, he would destroy humanity, while if the Emperor won, humanity would slowly decay, all the time fuelling the power of chaos. Which, ironically, happened in spite of the AL joining Horus.

So, yes. Kill all humans is possibly a solution.

I don't think there was anything "ironic" about it. The cabal wanted humanity dead for a very simple reason: humans were killing them... in droves. This had nothing at all to do with the power of chaos, that was just a simple excuse to further drive a wedge in the human's armed forces. If Alpha legion had sided with the Emperor instead of Horus it would have made the heresy much harder to pull off with the very distinct possibility that the Emperor would have been able to complete his web way project thereby dominating the immaterium.

Also, the part about Chaos being fuelled entirely by human emotions is a stinking pile of gak; after all humans didn't create Slaanesh.. The Eldar did that all on their own. Further, the fluff has multiple areas that talk about the disruption and transformation of the immaterium due to all of the fighting that occurred between the old ones and the necrons... Long long before humans were even created...

Fear the Alien and do NOT trust them. I guarantee they don't have humanities best interests at heart. This was one of Alpharius mistakes. The next one was trusting that Horus was making the right decision. Alpharius was already leaning towards followng Horus due to their close bond, and needed another push to get them going. The Cabal provided that push with a very detailed set of lies which allowed Alpha Legion to "believe" that it would be the Emperors will for humanity to go out quickly instead of through years and years of torture. The problem with that is those were only two possible futures, there were others...

Alpharius was not going to follow Horus, and he nearly killed the entire Cabal when they suggested it. The vision of the future swayed him, as he felt that the Emperor would want it. Otherwise, I'd agree with you. The Cabal might have shown them a vision of what would happen if they joined Horus, which essentially they did. The second vision could have been a galaxy at peace, controlled by humans, but the primarch didn't get to see that vision, whatever it was.

The only reason that Chaos would have been destroyed by humanity's death at that time was because each power was investing heavily in the Chaos Marines. Now they're not as tied to them or humanity, so while the destruction of humanity would certainly weaken them, they could just draw energy from the races that would take over afterwards.

It's not complete gak that humans drive Chaos.

Yes, the Eldar created Slaanesh, but they also created a pantheon of their own gods (which Slaanesh killed). Of all of the other Eldar gods, only Khaine is speculated to be linked to one of the other three out of the Big Four (Khorne) and even that isn't substantiated.

During the time of the Old Ones, Chaos didn't even exist. The warp was a rather tranquil place. When the Eldar ruled the galaxy, they created their own pantheon of gods. The Orks have their own separate gods as well. Tyranids and Necrons obviously have no part in this discussion. While you can argue about where exactly the Chaos gods came from, if humanity ever died out, Chaos would be starved of power. The possible heirs to humanity's place on the galactic stage (Orks, Necronds, Nids, or even *snort* Tau) would not feed the warp in the same way, if they fed it at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Derailing the thread a little, if you ever wondered why Abaddon (and Chaos in general) weren't more effective at crushing the Imperium, this is why. Humanity is like the biggest herd of livestock in the galaxy. The Dark Gods manage the herd and cull carefully, allowing the Imperium to maintain the same delicate balance for 10,000 years when by all rights they should have collapsed long ago. Instead you have the maximum number of humans kept in the maximum amount of despair and suffering with the greatest amount of bloodshed possible without thinning the herd too much. Abaddon will never win because he will never be allowed to win - in spite of his mortal desire to burn Terra to the ground, the gods he draws power from are perfectly content to pull their punches in the end, leaving humanity on life support for another go at a future date.

The very nature of the four gods helps maintain this balance: hedonism and bloodshed, mutation and stagnation, they are all destructive but in mutually opposing ways. The constant power struggle of The Great Game and their inward focus on their rivalries within the warp help to spare humanity the full brunt of their combined power, which as I outlined above helps to increase the gods' power base in the end.

Why would the Imperium need to do this? They're already dealing with Chaos just fine. I mean, Chaos has been attacking them for 10,000 years and has basically nothing to show for it.

Chaos is simply a minor player in the universe of 40k.

Yes, clearly the beings that control the means by which most major races travel through large distances are minor players in the galaxy.

Chaos has been biding its time for 10000 years. It has been corrupting Imperial servants, including the Inquisition, the very order made to oppose it.

The Imperium might think it's dealing with Chaos just fine, but the Dark Gods are destroying it from the inside out.

Nah, they aren't. The Chaos Gods have no purpose involving the Imperium. Their servants, that's the mortal ones by the way, including Space Marines and cultists, are the ones with the seething hatred for their previous allegiance. The Chaos Gods couldn't give two hoots about the mortal realm until it actually threatens their power, which has only happened once.

Mhm.. the whole Hydra affair from the Inquisition wars comes to mind... Though that was more a case of mind controlling all humans.

To defeat Chaos, humans have to become Orky! WAAAAAAGH!!!