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I thought that the Emperor made it clear that he shouldn't be worshipped (what with the whole Word Bearers episode..).Yet we have Templars of several varieties, frequent use of words like Heretic and nuns packing Multi-Meltas....

So, am I wrong? Is the IOM not secular? Is it more complex than that??

The Emperor intended the Imperium to be atheist.

The Imperium of 40k has an official religion; the worship of the God Emperor. The church is also closely entwined with the state. The Imperium is not secular, though for practical purposes some parts and organisations of the million(ish) worlds of the Imperium probably are. Some degree of variation in religious doctrine is tolerated (if for not other reason than the Imperium is a big place and there will always be some drift, especially in isolated areas), but no other religion is tolerated.

Quite a lot happened between the Emperor stamping out the religions of his time and the 40k setting.

Thanks..
That clears up a lot...

EDIT: Ninja'd and nath'd.

The Emperor did indeed have the idea of a secular Imperium. Part of this was because he thought his people would have no vulnerability to Chaos if they had no exposure to religion.

Unfortunately for him, he was confined to a giant chair for several thousand years keeping said Imperium alive and unable to communicate his desires with them. During this time, people came to worship the Emperor, and the Imperial Dogma became mandatory. We now have the Ecclesiarchy enforcing the faith with its armies of Battle Sisters.

The Space Marines are weird in that most of them don't worship the Emperor, but still believe that those against him are heretics.

Think of it as being like the middle ages.

The society was secular (controlled by nobility/royalty rather than directly by the Church), but the Church had a lot of influence over everyone in that secular society (including those lords and kings..)

Quick clarification:

The IoM as conceived by the Emperor was not secular. It was explicitly atheist. In a secular state, the state is (largely) neutral on the matter of religion. The early Imperium was not neutral. It stamped out religions. If a state is against religion it is not secular.

Though rare exceptions may exist the Middle Ages (in Europe) were not secular. Official state religions existed, and deviation from official religious doctrine could result in torture, imprisonment, or death (e.g. burning heretics alive). The rulership of kings was justified by 'divine right'. The Jews did not always have a rosey time in the Middle Ages living in Europe! Secularism arose in Europe, in the modern period, as a practical accommodation to allow Catholic and Protestant to coexist in a state without strife or conflict. Problems prior to the rise of secularism included the people of a country being forced to adhere to the religion of their ruler.

I think that I largely agree with the gist of what posters have been saying, just trying to clarify terminology.

Strictly-speaking, 'secular' and 'anti-religious' are not mutually-exclusive; the early Imperium would correctly be described as both.

Even the Templar varietals aren't what we would call religious, despite using plenty of religious language - though someone will correct me if I'm wrong on that, I'm sure. Space Marines are usually a breed apart when it comes to worship.

Another clarification:

Molten Butter wrote:We now have the Ecclesiarchy enforcing the faith with its armies of Battle Sisters.

On an Imperium-wide scale, the Ecclesiarchy isn't able to enforce anything - that's what the Decree Passive was all about. The Battle Sisters aren't that many (total number of SoB fighting during the 13th Black Crusade: 15.000, compared to 250.000 Space Marines). What makes the Ecclesiarchy so powerful is that it has the full backing of the High Lords, so that heretics and unbelievers not only get into trouble with the local clergy (including zealous frateris militias) but also law enforcement, PDF and, if need be, the Imperial Guard.

Molten Butter wrote:The Space Marines are weird in that most of them don't worship the Emperor, but still believe that those against him are heretics.

Personal opinion: I think it's less weird when you interpret it in a way that the Marines are defending the divine cause of the Imperium, not so much the mortal man who led it (though he is still revered as the bestest guy who ever lived). In a way, you could perhaps say Space Marines are like Buddhists.

The Emperor himself wants a 'dynamic' and 'enlightened' Imperium. he has no specific views regarding to any known religion.

But in his heyday. everyone remembers his deeds. (and Mankind was just crawled out of the ruins of our own civilization. which ruined during the Age of Strife). such 'obsedded Emperor's fanboys' have their reasons to call him Divine being not just 'an extremely long life wiseman'.

Early SMs are more samurais than european knights.

I'm not sure if Ecclesiarchy has 'clerical university' where theocracy can be debated just like in european renaissance.

English Assassin wrote:Strictly-speaking, 'secular' and 'anti-religious' are not mutually-exclusive; the early Imperium would correctly be described as both.

As far as I can tell, this is not the case. A secular state is by definition non-perfectionist on the matter of religion, it does not endorse or minimally endorses any particular view on the matter of religion. Secular states do remove religion from areas of public life such as political debate. In this sense they could be considered without-theism (atheist), but not anti-theistic (anti-religious), in the same way that highways and electricity are without-theism.

It seems to me there is room for argument whether secularism is anti-religious in moving religious matters out of the public sphere, though historically this has been to the benefit of religions; removing the capacity for them to oppress each other.

Secularism is becoming a politicised term, and is frequently misused in the media.

If you're not convinced / don't agree I'd be happy to talk further, but it might be better to move it to PMs (though if nobody minds the thread being derailed a little...).

Lone Cat wrote:The Emperor himself wants a 'dynamic' and 'enlightened' Imperium. he has no specific views regarding to any known religion.

This doesn't agree with the Horus Heresy series.

The Last Church by McNeil in Tales of Heresy is very enlightening on the Emperor's position, which we get straight from the horse's mouth. My estimation of McNeil went up a notch or two after reading it. Some relevant quotes:

Revelation: "Even perched up all the way up here, you must surely have heard of the Emperor and his crusade to stamp out all forms of religion and belief in the supernatural. Soon his forces will come here and tear this place (the last church on Earth) down".

The Emperor: "Humanity is the same, and only when the suffocating shadows of a religion that teaches us not to question is gone from this world will we see its true brilliance".

The Emperor: "It is my dream. An Imperium of Man that exists without recourse to gods and the supernatural."

One of the great ironies of the WH40k setting is that the Emperor tried to stamp out religion amongst humanity, but has found himself being revered as a god by the greater mass of mankind.

The Sororitas are not enforcing faith, their main task is to protect the property of the church. Not sure if they still are seen as the military arm of the Ordo hereticus.

This church thing started when a women did miracles by praying to the Emperor (see HH novels). It still works, so effectively the Emperor is something like a God. Wasn't intended by the Emperor when walking the Earth.

Many Space Marines see the Emperor as a Battle brother and trust his word that he is no God.

The Emperor very likely intended to transfer to a society of himself being worshiped.

I mean, if he didn't, he sure as feth didn't do a very good job of preparing the Imperium for it, appearing as he did like a god amongst men in almost every appearance he makes, with this primarchs as his seraphs, and his marines as his angels.

Splog wrote:A secular state is by definition non-perfectionist on the matter of religion, it does not endorse or minimally endorses any particular view on the matter of religion. Secular states do remove religion from areas of public life such as political debate.

No, the word secular means 'temporal' or 'worldly', as distinct from religious or spiritual; nowhere in the number of definitions the OED can provide does it mean or imply religious pluralism. A secular state is simply one in which religious matters do not intrude into government or law, i.e. one in which there is separation of church and state.

As I said, the two terms are non-exclusive, a state can be secular whilst tolerant of a plurality of religious views and institutions - modern France or the USA, by way of example, or can be secular and anti-religious - for instance revolutionary France or Soviet Russia. Indeed the 'secular religion' of revolutionary France's Cult of Reason is one of the obvious inspirations for the Horus Heresy novels' Imperial Truth.

In the world history, the pope and the emperor were antagonistic powers. But in the M41 IoM the Emperor is deified so he stands above both the Ecclesiarchy and the secular government (planetary governors, military generals, tech-priests and others). In the IoM, the theocrathical and secular reign are merged in a unique authoritarian way, so it's not the secular state in modern meaning of this word.
But it was indeed in M30 and was destroyed by human fear of Chaos and superstitions.

Lynata wrote:On an Imperium-wide scale, the Ecclesiarchy isn't able to enforce anything - that's what the Decree Passive was all about. The Battle Sisters aren't that many (total number of SoB fighting during the 13th Black Crusade: 15.000, compared to 250.000 Space Marines). What makes the Ecclesiarchy so powerful is that it has the full backing of the High Lords, so that heretics and unbelievers not only get into trouble with the local clergy (including zealous frateris militias) but also law enforcement, PDF and, if need be, the Imperial Guard.

Interesting. I never knew that the Guard and PDF were sometimes dedicated to fighting unbelievers and heretics in general. I thought they only stepped in when such philosophies attract Chaos or turn to rebellion.

Lynata wrote:Personal opinion: I think it's less weird when you interpret it in a way that the Marines are defending the divine cause of the Imperium, not so much the mortal man who led it (though he is still revered as the bestest guy who ever lived). In a way, you could perhaps say Space Marines are like Buddhists.

You're probably right here. It would explain why the Space Marines put so much iconography like the skull on their armor despite not worshipping the Emperor, since it represents humanity's divine form in general.

Melissia wrote:The Emperor very likely intended to transfer to a society of himself being worshiped.

I mean, if he didn't, he sure as feth didn't do a very good job of preparing the Imperium for it, appearing as he did like a god amongst men in almost every appearance he makes, with this primarchs as his seraphs, and his marines as his angels.

That doesn't seem to gel with what he said to Lorgar.

Melissia wrote:The Emperor very likely intended to transfer to a society of himself being worshiped.

I mean, if he didn't, he sure as feth didn't do a very good job of preparing the Imperium for it, appearing as he did like a god amongst men in almost every appearance he makes, with this primarchs as his seraphs, and his marines as his angels.

He underestimated humanity's need to worship something.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Emperor very likely intended to transfer to a society of himself being worshiped.

I mean, if he didn't, he sure as feth didn't do a very good job of preparing the Imperium for it, appearing as he did like a god amongst men in almost every appearance he makes, with this primarchs as his seraphs, and his marines as his angels.

He underestimated humanity's need to worship something.

The Emperor discovered, much to his chagrin I imagine, that humanity has this agnozingly powerful need to worship something greater than themselves. In that need, mankind had the ability to create the god they desired to worship, the relationship was direct.

He had intended to try and drive humanity to a secular society driven only by pragmatism in order to eliminate chaos by starving it. He knew chaos existed and strove to divorce mankind from it, but it became increasingly necessary to show more and more of his power. Over time, those displays took on a life of their own and the Emperor's power spawned exactly that kind of irrational idolization he fought to destroy.

Even now, the Emperor is 'fed' by billions of souls sacrificed constantly to maintain the Astronomicon.

The Emperor is a god in all but name, though it's pretty clear he didn't want the job. The actions of those he wanted to save have put him there.

The will of mankind has proven far stronger than the will of the Emperor.

" If humanity has a fault it's the distressing tendency to bend at the knees.. " Terry Pratchett.

Lynata wrote:Another clarification:

Molten Butter wrote:We now have the Ecclesiarchy enforcing the faith with its armies of Battle Sisters.

On an Imperium-wide scale, the Ecclesiarchy isn't able to enforce anything - that's what the Decree Passive was all about. The Battle Sisters aren't that many (total number of SoB fighting during the 13th Black Crusade: 15.000, compared to 250.000 Space Marines). What makes the Ecclesiarchy so powerful is that it has the full backing of the High Lords, so that heretics and unbelievers not only get into trouble with the local clergy (including zealous frateris militias) but also law enforcement, PDF and, if need be, the Imperial Guard.

Molten Butter wrote:The Space Marines are weird in that most of them don't worship the Emperor, but still believe that those against him are heretics.

Personal opinion: I think it's less weird when you interpret it in a way that the Marines are defending the divine cause of the Imperium, not so much the mortal man who led it (though he is still revered as the bestest guy who ever lived). In a way, you could perhaps say Space Marines are like Buddhists.

There are massive wars of faith and the ecclesiarchy is one of the dominant political powers, as described in the relevent Dark Heresy Book ( Blood of Martyrs ).
In fact a charismatic cardinal might even eclipse the sector governor in political power and noone short of the High Lords or, if they do not actually agree with the cardinal ( more than a few inquisitors are former members of the ecclesiarchy ), the Ordo Hereticus can curtail such a man's/woman's ambitions. During a war of faith ( or in fact whenever church property is in danger ) the Decree Passive is generaly ignored and
massive numbers of the frateris militia are gathered by the lords of the ecclesiarchy.
On top of this there is, of course, the support by other imperial organisations, as you already said.
So, no matter what the carriongod once intended, in the 40. millenium the ecclesiarchy is one of the most influential organisations in the Imperium, rivaled only by the Mechanicus, the Administratum and the Inquisition.

Uhlan wrote:
The Emperor is a god in all but name

What, "The God-Emperor Of Mankind" isn't goddy enough for you?

Molten Butter wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Emperor very likely intended to transfer to a society of himself being worshiped.

I mean, if he didn't, he sure as feth didn't do a very good job of preparing the Imperium for it, appearing as he did like a god amongst men in almost every appearance he makes, with this primarchs as his seraphs, and his marines as his angels.

That doesn't seem to gel with what he said to Lorgar.

Actions speak louder than words.

No, not really..

When he steps off his Lifeomatic then he's Goddy enough

Right now he's more comatosejackoffwithuberpsykerpowers - y

Dang, why is it we seem to have one of these threads every week?

the Search function needs to be fixed so we don't have redundant threads so often.



Yes, the Emperor meant for Mankind to be secular because he was trying to protect them from the Gods of the Warp.

It is possable that, once mankind was fully safe from Chaos, the Emperor would have installed himself as a living god.


Indeed, the Plan B that is currently in place is actually far better then the original idea. Its keeping mankind safe from Chaos by them worshipping the Emperor(who isn't going to nom their souls)

Certaintly, the denial that Chaos exists was a blunder on the Emperor's part. He certaintly should have told the Primarchs and possably the Astartes.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Emperor very likely intended to transfer to a society of himself being worshiped.

I mean, if he didn't, he sure as feth didn't do a very good job of preparing the Imperium for it, appearing as he did like a god amongst men in almost every appearance he makes, with this primarchs as his seraphs, and his marines as his angels.

He underestimated humanity's need to worship something.

The uneducated masses of humanity need to worship something, most educated can find suficient tangible things to occupy them. The majority of the people in the IoM seem to have little education, with lives of drudgery in manufactoriums which doesn't encourage critical thought either. So the Emperor could have wanted one of two things - an uneducated mass to venerate him as a god, or an educated nation that progresses mentally with him. Both are likely possibilities, depending on your perception of the Emperors motives.

Yonan wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Melissia wrote:The Emperor very likely intended to transfer to a society of himself being worshiped.

I mean, if he didn't, he sure as feth didn't do a very good job of preparing the Imperium for it, appearing as he did like a god amongst men in almost every appearance he makes, with this primarchs as his seraphs, and his marines as his angels.

He underestimated humanity's need to worship something.

The uneducated masses of humanity need to worship something, most educated can find suficient tangible things to occupy them. The majority of the people in the IoM seem to have little education, with lives of drudgery in manufactoriums which doesn't encourage critical thought either. So the Emperor could have wanted one of two things - an uneducated mass to venerate him as a god, or an educated nation that progresses mentally with him. Both are likely possibilities, depending on your perception of the Emperors motives.

I'd even go so far as to call it Plan A and Plan B, Plan A being the enlightened, educated Imperium that casts aside religion and insulates itself from warp influence (theoretically). When that didn't work out, Plan B - trillions of drones in dogmatic, lockstep veneration - became the only way to keep mankind from being swallowed up by gibbering aliens.

Molten Butter wrote:Interesting. I never knew that the Guard and PDF were sometimes dedicated to fighting unbelievers and heretics in general. I thought they only stepped in when such philosophies attract Chaos or turn to rebellion.

Welllll, sort of - I should probably elaborate:

The following of the Imperial Cult, the formally recognized state-religion of the Imperium of Man, is vast, and whilst the Sisters Militant can not be (and indeed are not, as evidenced in Codex Cityfight) everywhere, the faithful are. Generally, cells of unbelievers and heretics are small enough that they can be dealt with by locally raised militia led by the Imperial clergy. If this is not the case, the antagonized enemy is already a threat to stability and thus intervention from the PDF or even the Imperial Guard is almost inevitable: the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperium are so closely connected that the clergy will not only be able to rely on support of local authorities or indeed Imperial forces off-world, but that groups of heretics will automatically recognize an attack by the Ecclesiarchy as an attack by the Imperium. It is also important to note that the Ministorum's influence stretches far beyond its officially sanctioned jurisdiction - many nobles and Imperial commanders will lend their support to the Ecclesiarchy based on nothing more than being faithful to the Imperial Creed. And indeed, it is quite usual that Imperial households as well as Navy and Guard formations include agents of the Ecclesiarchy amongst their staff ...

The 2E SoB Codex is definitively recommended reading on the subject, as it offers much insight into the finer workings of the Ecclesiarchy. Here's a couple quotes relevant to the above:

"As time passed and these followers spread out across the Imperium in pursuit of their various duties, the beliefs of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor spread with them. Army and Navy officers initiated their men into the rites of the Temple, while zealous Missionaries travelled through the Imperium teaching their own religious code to anybody who would listen. They would use their immense skills to slowly incorporate the beliefs of those they met while also imposing the doctrines of the Temple of the Saviour Emperor. [...] In many places the Imperium was still reeling from the anarchy left by the Horus Heresy, and the Temple of the Saviour Emperor provided a uniting force to instil cooperation between the lowliest and the highest. Those sects which did not, or could not, incorporate the Temple's wishes faced political and economic annihilation. The population would be roused to cast out the unbelievers, and on many worlds this persecution turned to violence."

"Only one other order posed a threat to the power of the Ecclesiarchy. Founded around the planet Dimmamar, the Confederation of Light was a penitent faith that believed the sacrifice of the Emperor should serve as an example to everybody. Their ideas of poverty and humble living directly contradicted the teachings of the Ecclesiarchy. In the views of the Ministorum, sacrifices were made by the citizens, the Ecclesiarchy made its sacrifices in other ways than raw money and wealth. The Confederation of Light was powerful, and Ministorum Missionaries could do little to penetrate the sect's following. Finally, the Ecclesiarchy, with the unanimous vote of the High Lords of Terra, declared the first War of Faith.
The Confederation of Light was declared a heretic assembly and the forces of the Navy and the Imperial Guard, along with thousands of untrained followers who wished to serve the Emperor in this righteous conflict, were brought in to eradicate the spiritual threat. Although the odd cell and shrine escaped the forces at the Ecclesiarch's disposal, as a working religion the Confederation of Light ceased to exist. The dominance of the Adeptus Ministorum was complete."

(Sidenote: the above two citation deal with the Pre-Vandirian Ecclesiarchy, but the machinations which helped the Ministorum amass so much power back then are still in place and working quite fine, as can be seen below)

"Each Confessor has his own style and techniques. Some prefer fiery speeches and rabble-rousing to incite the population into religious fanaticism, whilst others are more subtle, manipulating the leaders of guilds and other organisations to form coalitions against the enemy. They whisper into the ears of commanders, guiding them from behind the scenes, swaying their decisions down paths approved by the Ministorum."

"As well as the official organisations of the Ecclesiarchy, the Adeptus Ministorum is usually accompanied by a number of Frateris Militia. The Frateris Militia have no formal connection to the Ecclesiarchy other than they follow the Imperial Creed, and thus do not break the provisions of the Decree Passive. Frateris Militia can be formed in a variety of ways and for varying lengths of time. A Preacher discovering a heretical cult may rouse his followers to attack the enemy and cast them out. [...] When a War of Faith is declared, thousands of Frateris Militia will assemble with the ranks of the Battle Sisters and Imperial Guard, eager to prove their dedication to the Emperor."

Now, that is not to say that the Sisters never become active in enforcing the Ecclesiarchy's demands from time to time. For example, studio material notes that their duties include providing a show of force and apply "pressure" when powerful individuals are late with their tithes. Yet, this is always a very localized projection of power, and the (comparatively) small numbers of Sisters (the big six Major Orders only have about ~5.000 SoB each) limit the frequency with which this could be pulled off. If the Ministorum would not have the full backing of the High Lords of Terra (of which the Ecclesiarch is a permanent member) and if it would not be seen as the official voice of the Emperor by so many Imperials (from the common folk to the soldiers and up to the highest officers and nobles), the clergy would find it impossible to wield the political power they have. Which is only strengthened further by the Orders Famulous basically infiltrating various noble houses, by the way.

That's not entirely true.


Much of the political power of the church has a lot to do with their sway over the common person.

Grey Templar wrote:Dang, why is it we seem to have one of these threads every week?

the Search function needs to be fixed so we don't have redundant threads so often.

Sorry, I didn't realise that this was a common question-and you are correct in that I should have searched it first.

Still, it's incredibly enlightening. I was thinking it's a bit odd that no body (in fluff) has found evidence of the Emperor's desire to rid man of religion, but then I guess it was a long, long time before "now" in game terms..and I guess if they did, they'd be called a heretic ..

Splog wrote:

English Assassin wrote:Strictly-speaking, 'secular' and 'anti-religious' are not mutually-exclusive; the early Imperium would correctly be described as both.

As far as I can tell, this is not the case. A secular state is by definition non-perfectionist on the matter of religion, it does not endorse or minimally endorses any particular view on the matter of religion. Secular states do remove religion from areas of public life such as political debate. In this sense they could be considered without-theism (atheist), but not anti-theistic (anti-religious), in the same way that highways and electricity are without-theism.

It seems to me there is room for argument whether secularism is anti-religious in moving religious matters out of the public sphere, though historically this has been to the benefit of religions; removing the capacity for them to oppress each other.

Secularism is becoming a politicised term, and is frequently misused in the media.

If you're not convinced / don't agree I'd be happy to talk further, but it might be better to move it to PMs (though if nobody minds the thread being derailed a little...).

Lone Cat wrote:The Emperor himself wants a 'dynamic' and 'enlightened' Imperium. he has no specific views regarding to any known religion.

This doesn't agree with the Horus Heresy series.

The Last Church by McNeil in Tales of Heresy is very enlightening on the Emperor's position, which we get straight from the horse's mouth. My estimation of McNeil went up a notch or two after reading it. Some relevant quotes:

Revelation: "Even perched up all the way up here, you must surely have heard of the Emperor and his crusade to stamp out all forms of religion and belief in the supernatural. Soon his forces will come here and tear this place (the last church on Earth) down".

The Emperor: "Humanity is the same, and only when the suffocating shadows of a religion that teaches us not to question is gone from this world will we see its true brilliance".

The Emperor: "It is my dream. An Imperium of Man that exists without recourse to gods and the supernatural."

One of the great ironies of the WH40k setting is that the Emperor tried to stamp out religion amongst humanity, but has found himself being revered as a god by the greater mass of mankind.

then you're saying that the Emperor himself want 'Tau-style' Imperium. I'm not sure If his view based on the fears of Chaos insurrection caused by such 'worships' of 'gods' ?

The Emperor discovered, much to his chagrin I imagine, that humanity has this agnozingly powerful need to worship something greater than themselves. In that need, mankind had the ability to create the god they desired to worship, the relationship was direct.

Did he sahre the same view as Voltaire?