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People on dakka are saying that MM/HF speeders efective, but I just can't seem to keep mine alive. Am I doing somthing wrong? Is there a way to keep them alive efectivly, or do you just have to run enough of them that some of them survive?

Thanks!

Hug cover like an old friend.

They dont need to survive per say

Get to a juicy target, take them down, then if the speeders survive a few extra turns then thats a bonus

Well to give them better chances you could try to find some terrain to hide in. Also present more threats to enemies such as vindicators or terminators can draw fire away

They're not exactly the durable types. They're made for rushing in, making their points back and then some, and then getting shot to hell and back. My only advice is to not waste them, and charge like a mofo.

That depends on which configuration your using?

General_Chaos wrote:That depends on which configuration your using?

I'm use a MM/HF Land Speeder. As for suicide troops, they never seem to get into range befor turn one, and by then its gotten shot to pieces, and even when I moove it flat out to get the cover it gets killed.

I have a similar problem. It seems that a shiny speeder draws a lot of attention. It helps to reserve them and either deepstrike them in or drive them in. Its generally just gonna be a hit and quit unit. I did notice that running them in single unit squads will occupy more units fire. If he wants to fire that heavy weapon at the speeder then the rest of his squad must also fire upon your speeder instead of hurting sumthing else.

use it as a suicide bomb for LR

Wouldn't a MM attack bike be more affective? I have run up against those and they are pretty durable. They only do one thing but there 20 pointes less then a MM/HF speeder, which is only getting one shot anyway.

The problem with the attack bike is that you lose the versatility of the heavy flamer, which helps a when you fight that one army every tournament thats orks or nids.
Also, the bike can be less effective if their is a nice tall building that is blocking your way.

Config2 wrote:The problem with the attack bike is that you lose the versatility of the heavy flamer, which helps a when you fight that one army every tournament thats orks or nids.
Also, the bike can be less effective if their is a nice tall building that is blocking your way.

Then you terbo-boost. With two wounds, the enemy ither has to divert heavy fire, or only do I wound to it. Where as a land speeder moving flat out can be killed by bolters. As for the versatility, you now have 20 points to spend on somthing thats better at anti-infantry fire then a MM/HF speeder.

Armadeus wrote:
Then you terbo-boost. With two woonds, the enemy ither has to divert heavy fire, or only do I woond to it. Where as a land speeder mooving flat out can be killed by bolters. .

Might want to run a spellcheck

Also attack bikes can also get killed by bolters, whats your point?

EDIT: sorry about spelling.

Sure bikes can get killed by bolters, but I find it is much harder to kill a bike with bolters then it is to kill a speeder. The bike has an armour save and two wounds, the speeder can get taken out with one lucky shot.

They don't need to survive for you to win. Always remember that as long as you win the game, EVERYTHING is expendable. I find them to be suicide units: they don't often survive the game (much less fully intact), but they are a threat that has to be dealt with as they have a high damage potential. Just their presence can be enough.

To aid them, make sure your list packs plenty of other armor targets and that they hug cover. Use flat out movement to get them in place, try to time their arrival as a threat in range with the rest of your army. Make targets selection a problem.

Bikes aren't nearly as maneuverable and can be killed in melee far more easily than a speeder.

With HF/MM, as has been said already, think of them as torpedos. They'll go in, mess up something more expensive than they are, then probably die. If they survive to get something else, that's just gravy.

That said, when using the MM, you don't always need to move to within 12" for the melta effect. If you're shooting at something lightweight like a Rhino you might consider hanging back at 24" since you don't need the melta effect so badly. Staying further back makes a speeder a bit safer in lots of instances.

I've known people who prefer the x2 Missile Launcher variant for that reason. Hang back where they're safe and lob volleys of crack missiles. Fought a SW army once with x3 3-speeder units of those and x3 Long Fangs with multiple Missile tubes each. Something like 30 missile shots a turn. That was effective and lots of armies cant get enough anti-light-vehicle shooting downrange to shut down the speeders.

Target saturation is an issue with speeders too. If you're running like... 2 of them up forward real aggressively and those are the only two things in your army they can engage at close range... yeah, dead speeders. But 4 speeders, a drop pod full of something nasty, a squad of infiltrated scouts, some turbo-boosted bikes, etc... and all of a sudden they've got so many threats that it's more likely the speeders (as well as the other stuff) will be able to survive. Don't send your forces forward piecemeal.

Anyway, hope that helps.

Take typhoons, that will help keep them alive. A keen understanding of what your opponent has that can hurt your MM/HF speeder, and their range will also help. My first few games of using MM/HF speeders they got swatted down so quickly, but then again I was turbo boosting into the range of not only the long range AT weapons (ML's, LC's, AC's...) but also in range of plasmaguns and the like.

In a mech list they will be hit with all the antiinfantry guns. Also they tend to be the only thing in rapid fire range.

Take two. They work better in pairs.

The setup you have is as a suicide unit.

Personally I run dual MM speeders. (Usually backed by vulcan). They can shred tanks and light armor w/ ease. I usually only close into the 12" range for kills on AV13 or higher.

I find that the heavy flamer will almost never cause 70 points of damage no matter what you fire it at. Orks are 6pts a piece, I would have to gib 12 orks in order to pay a speeder (how many ork players do you know that will stick the 18 boyz in flamer formation needed to average 12 kills?) On MEQ you usually need about 6 kills (this would take about 36 bodies under a template, too bad space marines only come in squads of 10) and terminators are just a lost cause. Simply put you will never make your points using the flamer. being within flamer range means you will be gunned down and subsequently assaulted.

Dual melta can rush Land raiders if needed. Dispatch rhino's and other light transports with relative ease. Or if you happen to be playing nids, wound most monsterous creatures on a 2+ and not allow armor saves. You may have to close in for the Land raider kill but then you have traded 80pts of speeder for a 240+ point tank.

Thaylen wrote:I find that the heavy flamer will almost never cause 70 points of damage no matter what you fire it at. Orks are 6pts a piece, I would have to gib 12 orks in order to pay a speeder (how many ork players do you know that will stick the 18 boyz in flamer formation needed to average 12 kills?)

When they are sitting in the crater of that battlewagon you just blew up shame you might need the MM for the wagon itself though

But on a side note, things like pathfinders, SM scouts or grots on a objective in the backfield ain't going to like that HF. In addition, taking a chunk out of a unit can force a morale check which can lead to said unit breaking...

I think the MM/HF speeder really uses the MM as its "Primary" weapon, the HF is for versatility. I know I'm usually moving 12" with my speeders, so not firing both weaps...

I guess it is a matter of how aggressive you want to be with the speeders. Dual MM is a bit between the MM/HF and Typhoon in terms of engagement distance (as I mentioned before I usually only close past 12" to strike high AV targets, of which most all are more than 80pts). I usually only have to move 6" a round to keep out of the 12" assault range of most guys. If the enemy gets closer than 18" then I can pop forward to deliver 2 twin linked melta shots w/ double pen dice.

If I'm not using vulcan I occasionally go w/ the typhoon, but each is a matter of its own specialty

Typhoon: Infantry, Light/Mid Armor
MM/MM: Any Armor, Elite Infantry (you only gotta zap 2 termies to make your points back)

Both variants work well vs MC's but with GK's new codex that AP1 should bring a world of hurt to any dreadknights that dare leave their deployment zone on turn 1.

Armadeus wrote:

General_Chaos wrote:That depends on which configuration your using?

I'm use a MM/HF Land Speeder. As for suicide troops, they never seem to get into range befor turn one, and by then its gotten shot to pieces, and even when I moove it flat out to get the cover it gets killed.

Deep strike them

I've known people who prefer double MM to MM/HF. It works well enough as long as you put adequate anti-swarm elsewhere in the list.

Thaylen wrote:I guess it is a matter of how aggressive you want to be with the speeders. Dual MM is a bit between the MM/HF and Typhoon in terms of engagement distance...

If I'm not using vulcan I occasionally go w/ the typhoon, but each is a matter of its own specialty

24" vs 48" =\ I really do love my Typhoons for the sheer distance they can fire, especially since they can move and fire effectively. So good to zip onto the quiet flank... I often leave them in the middle of my deployment, and forgo the first round of fire to turbo boost to the flank the enemy won't be able to reach them on, preferably out of LOS. next turn they start the pain

And since I'm running SW, I can't take vulkan, but If i was playing 'nilla marines I'd probably have ALOT more to say about both the MM/MM and MM/HF speeders. But I will play a few games with a proxy vulkan and my friends marines, and see what I come up with, since you have piqued my interest...

Jihallah wrote:

Thaylen wrote:I guess it is a matter of how aggressive you want to be with the speeders. Dual MM is a bit between the MM/HF and Typhoon in terms of engagement distance...

If I'm not using vulcan I occasionally go w/ the typhoon, but each is a matter of its own specialty

24" vs 48" =\ I really do love my Typhoons for the sheer distance they can fire, especially since they can move and fire effectively. So good to zip onto the quiet flank... I often leave them in the middle of my deployment, and forgo the first round of fire to turbo boost to the flank the enemy won't be able to reach them on, preferably out of LOS. next turn they start the pain

And since I'm running SW, I can't take vulkan, but If i was playing 'nilla marines I'd probably have ALOT more to say about both the MM/MM and MM/HF speeders. But I will play a few games with a proxy vulkan and my friends marines, and see what I come up with, since you have piqued my interest...

It is true that Vulkan is what makes the MM/MM competitive w/ the Typhoon.

While you are running that vulkan list consider putting in a 5 man hammernator squad w/ a librarian in termy armor and nullzone/avenger. Hammernators w/ mastercrafted hammers and backed by nullzone is one of the meanest beatsticks you can bring to the table (and the psychic defense is a bonus). If you want I can PM you my usual 2k Vulkan if you haven't seen it floating around dakka somewhere.

Yeah the hammernator squad is a given in a vulkan list I figured, what with the mastercrafted etc. I forgot about the libby though, didn't cross my mind. Please, by all means swing it my way, I'll check it out and see how she goes

I also want to point out, for the purpose of the OP, the best post in this thread (it works even better with Cerbriums avatar )

Cerebrium wrote:Hug cover like an old friend.

Don't give the Librarian Termie armor, just leave him inside the Land Raider when you disembark.

I usually give him the termie armor so he can use the armor and the avenger power to bully 5 man tactical squads in late game while the hammernators are munching on something else. Its nice if you have the points left over but they can be spent on better things I suppose.

Armadeus wrote:

General_Chaos wrote:That depends on which configuration your using?

I'm use a MM/HF Land Speeder. As for suicide troops, they never seem to get into range befor turn one, and by then its gotten shot to pieces, and even when I moove it flat out to get the cover it gets killed.

Yeah, thats what MM/HF speeders do.



the ONLY speeders that will reliably survive beyond a couple of turns are Typhoons because they hang back at max range and toss krak missiles downrange. a fast Multi-melta is a massive threat that WILL die because of it. Typhoons are less of a psycological threat and can be expected to survive.

I don't know how you other armies do it but in the DA we just give the speeder 14 front and side armor.

They are basically skimmer War Walkers.
In other words, run many of them, shoot and kill things. You ARE gonna lose some, but they are pretty cheap and you can generally afford to lose some.