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ok so this happened in a tournament this weekend and we rules that the wounds just affect the unit

the target unit was a unit of 20 skinks + 3 krogs, the attacking unit was 37 witch elves.

So the witch elves swing inflicting 31 unsaved wounds on the unit which is more than the skinks and krogs combined, my opponent thought they krogs would survive as none of the wounds were directed at them, i said they should bleed over as they are not a character model and just part of the unit.

if i had not done enough wounds to wipe the unit in a single initiative step i would have been fine with the krogs surviving and being there.

we didnt find anything specific to deal with this scenario during our quick look through the army book, or rule book any ideas if we did this right?

No bleed over. You can only wound what you are in contact with in this case

they are all part of the same unit in this case using the mixed unit rule from skinks/krogs. not a unit of skinks and a separate unit of krogs.

the great reach rule says they attack and can be attacked, but it doesnt say they are a seperate unit for melee wound distribution.

I allways thought the krox where like champions, in that attacks directed at them can damage all the krox in the unit, but just like a champion wounds that finish off the skinks carry over.

like i said neither of us could find anything on how to allocate hits/wounds.


and how often are you going to get a fresh unit to take enough wounds on one phase to clean the whole thing.

The main reason i refuse to use skrox units is the fact GW refuse to clean up their rules.

The Great Reach rule has been removed by the FAQ, essenially

They are not champions. Nothing indicates they are, so they are not. Fact. Thus, the only rule that allows you to remove distinct, allocatable-to models does NOT apply

Have you allocated any attacks to the Skrox? No? Then you cannot hurt them. You will fnid absolutely no rules allowing you to hurt them, thus you cannot

After all - i bet you didnt roll any wounds against T4, did you, instead of T2?

nosferatu1001 wrote:After all - i bet you didnt roll any wounds against T4, did you, instead of T2?

So i can give a champ the dragonhelm and stil loose him to spill over wounds from the less armored RnF.
The kroxigor are part of the unit, and the rules for units don't allow you to just ignore those wounds because some of your guys are different.

Either way none of us have solid rules to stand on and GW suck for letting it stay that way for so -ing long.

...because he's a champion, and the rules for champions state this. This is the only reason the wounds spill over.

The rules for units do allow this, by not stating you apply the wounds. You cannot perform an action you have no permission to perform - and you have no permission to apply wounds to model types you have not allocated attacks to, therefore you cannot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:...because he's a champion, and the rules for champions state this. This is the only reason the wounds spill over.

The rules for units do allow this, by not stating you apply the wounds. You cannot perform an action you have no permission to perform - and you have no permission to apply wounds to model types you have not allocated attacks to, therefore you cannot.

I can't locate my rule book right now. Can you outline the pages this is on?

-Matt

Have you allocated any attacks to Krox? No? Then how are you wounding them

You need to find permission to wound models you have not allocated attacks to.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Have you allocated any attacks to Krox? No? Then how are you wounding them

You need to find permission to wound models you have not allocated attacks to.

show me where it says you can allocate attacks to parts of the same unit that are not characters or champions. so unless you can do that they are all part of the same wound pool.

i dont see anything that lets me say "Oh these 8 guys in your unit i dont like so they are getting 16 attacks, while the other 40 guys in your unit are cool so i'm going to only allocate 8 to them."

lixulana wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Have you allocated any attacks to Krox? No? Then how are you wounding them

You need to find permission to wound models you have not allocated attacks to.

show me where it says you can allocate attacks to parts of the same unit that are not characters or champions. so unless you can do that they are all part of the same wound pool.

i dont see anything that lets me say "Oh these 8 guys in your unit i dont like so they are getting 16 attacks, while the other 40 guys in your unit are cool so i'm going to only allocate 8 to them."

How about pg 49, Dividing Attacks? "If a model is touching enemies with different char.. profiles, it can choose which one to attack..."

..;and that s the point.

You have to a) be touching them and then b) must direct attacks at them

If you think you can wound T2 skink and MAGICALLY tranfer that wound to a krox that isnt in contact with anyone, youre going to have to find an actual rule for that.

well now you know and knowing if half the battle.

Artee wrote:How about pg 49, Dividing Attacks? "If a model is touching enemies with different char.. profiles, it can choose which one to attack..."

Ok, but what about page 45 REMOVE CASUALTIES:
The target unit suffers casualties for any wounds that have not been saved...
For every model that fails its save the target unit suffers an unsaved wound...

Your example does not allow different stat models to ignore wounds suffered by their own unit.
As i side note i will submit the argument as soon as someone quotes a rule that says, "RnF dudes with different stats ignore wounds sufered by their own unit".

It's messy rules.
As per the FAQ, you can't stomp on them, and the whole unit causes fear. To me, that's saying GW counts them as a single unit.
What odd is with the pulling models from the rear rule, if wounds on skinks go to krox, you should remove krox before you pull the front rank of skinks, because all losses are pulled from the rear.

It's a mess.

-Matt

good points hoverboy and hawaii.

there is no good answer it appears.

This argument is pointless, the only true answer is:
GW make a mess of rules.

Well as far as mixes units go what about skaven with their rat ogres/packmasters. I'm a little unfamiliar but in the same instance do wounds spill over there? Or is that an entirely different scenario all together?

Personally I think that the wounds shoul be spilling over, the whole point of skrox I that you can't target the Krox before you chop away the skinks right, in my meta we essentially treat it as a skink unit with X amount of nasty attacks, until there aren't enough skinks to fit all the Kroc behind then you can divide attacks as you are in contact with 2 separate profiles

GW wont't tell, so we don't know.

HawaiiMatt wrote:It's messy rules.
As per the FAQ, you can't stomp on them, and the whole unit causes fear. To me, that's saying GW counts them as a single unit.
What odd is with the pulling models from the rear rule, if wounds on skinks go to krox, you should remove krox before you pull the front rank of skinks, because all losses are pulled from the rear.

It's a mess.

-Matt

Isn't this covered in the army book where they show the diagrama how to position the Krox in the unit? They show the skinks all being removed before the Krox and the Krox moving to the front row. It may also answer your question there.

I am of the opinion that the Krox need to be rolled separately from the skink as the Krox have a much different profile. S & T 4 vs S & T 2. When the Krox get into the front you have to choose who to fight, the skink or the Krox. To me that would indicate you have to choose your target.

Skink are S3

nosferatu1001 wrote:Skink are S3

I really only know how T they are because they tend to die quickly if they are caught in a fight :(

Well. I don't know, the FAQ said to ignore the Great Reach rule, which would have allowed you to attack the Krox. As such, Krox are supporting attacks only and can't be targetted except by missile weapons and impact hits (randomly). If you got enough Skinks, you could keep those Krox in the 2nd row for quite a while. Though I'm not sure you'd want to do that, since they are much more resilient and harder to hurt and can't stomp back there.

But I do believe, per Dividing Attacks, you need to choose who you're attacking and there's no spillover between them. If there's 1 Temple Guard left with a Slann, you can't attack the TG, overkill it, and cause wounds to the Slann, avoiding it's ward save. Because the original to hit, wound, saves were taken vs. the TG and not the Slann. If you're an Ogre with 3 attacks swinging at a TG, you don't roll one to hit, check to wound, check saves, and if kills, roll other 2 attacks on the slann. You divide your attacks from the start. If you only allocate 1 to the TG and 2 to the Slann and fail to kill the TG, well, you should have allocated more.

DukeRustfield wrote:Well. I don't know, the FAQ said to ignore the Great Reach rule, which would have allowed you to attack the Krox. As such, Krox are supporting attacks only and can't be targetted except by missile weapons and impact hits (randomly). If you got enough Skinks, you could keep those Krox in the 2nd row for quite a while. Though I'm not sure you'd want to do that, since they are much more resilient and harder to hurt and can't stomp back there.

But I do believe, per Dividing Attacks, you need to choose who you're attacking and there's no spillover between them. If there's 1 Temple Guard left with a Slann, you can't attack the TG, overkill it, and cause wounds to the Slann, avoiding it's ward save. Because the original to hit, wound, saves were taken vs. the TG and not the Slann. If you're an Ogre with 3 attacks swinging at a TG, you don't roll one to hit, check to wound, check saves, and if kills, roll other 2 attacks on the slann. You divide your attacks from the start. If you only allocate 1 to the TG and 2 to the Slann and fail to kill the TG, well, you should have allocated more.

well that is not the same thing, as the slann is a character not just a model in the unit so there are specific rules for that.

the krogs are part of the unit and there are no circumstances where they can not be a part of it. as the great reach rule is ignored, there is nothing to allow them to be targeted in melee as a seperate unit.

Irrelevant. Dividing attacks doesn't limit itself to characters.

"If a model is touching enemies with different characteristic profiles, it can choose which one to attack when its turn to strike comes"

The example is a character. The rule isn't.

Seems anyone arguing that there is not spill-over onto the Krox needs to read p 93 of the BRB.

There is no rule saying that if a champ has different stats, the unsaved wounds don't go to him. I think you're getting confused with 40k.

Krox are champions, and as such follow all actual WRITTEN rules of the BRB, including "wounds inflicted on the unit can overflow onto the champion, but wounds inflicted on the champion cannot overflow onto the unit".

It doesn't say ANYWHERE that the champ having different stats prevents this - again, I think you're thinking 40k.

Warboss Fugnutz wrote:Krox are champions

This is the part I have not read in the rules.

kirsanth wrote:

Warboss Fugnutz wrote:Krox are champions

This is the part I have not read in the rules.

Page 92, under "What's in a name".