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pg. 62- "... From then on, any of your units arriving from reserve may move onto the board from the portal marker's edge instead of entering as normal (it does not matter whether these units were intending to deep strike, outflank, simply move on from their own table edge, and so on)."

pg. 50- "Kheradruakh must be held in reserve, regardless of mission. When he arrives from reserve, simply place him anywhere on the battlefield that is not within an inch of an enemy model (preferably with an evil chuckle). He may not assault that turn, but may otherwise act normally."

So my argument would be that Kheradruakh the Decapitator may come through a webway portal. This is based on the interpretation that his reserve rule is his normal way of entering play, and any unit may move on from the portal "instead of entering as normal". I feel that this is also covered with the phrase 'and so on' within the rules for a webway portal, the 'so on' being his normal method of entering play. I do not know, however, if Kheradruakh would be allowed to assault once he comes out of a webway portal, or if that restriction is only limited to when he enters play using his normal rules.

I'd appreciate other thoughts and interpretations on this, as I think it could be quite fun to use this character in this way (assuming he can assault the turn he comes into play from a webway portal).

You can "place him anywhere on the battlefield that is not within an inch of an enemy model"

This includes next to the webway portal.

Or you can have him come through the portal, as he is arriving from reserve, and "any of your units arriving from reserve may move onto the board from the portal marker's edge instead of entering as normal"

Either way is good.

I would like to argue no but as I see it it doesn't say he must use his special arrive from reserve deployment method, certainly best to discus with opponent BEFORE the match cause even though it doesn't say must it does seem like it implies that he must also no mention of a may. Compare to zagstruk which says he + boys must enter via deepstrike.
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The reason I'd like to argue no is cause there is no must or may in his rule which means it's down to personal interpretation (I feel no must > no may), unless GW has set a precident somewhere.

I would allow it, but it does not lift the restriction on assaulting on the turn he arrives.

"When he arrives from reserve..." gives you no allowance to place him on the table using any other method than his special Reserve rule. No matter what he will NOT be assaulting this turn

Brother Ramses wrote:I would allow it, but it does not lift the restriction on assaulting on the turn he arrives.

But if you allow it you disregard the bit about not assaulting since you aren't using that part of the special rule since it only applies to his special deployment method. Also in effect your solution is the same as saying he can't and you place him 6 inches from the portal (corteaz "I was expecting you" exception)


EDIT: My brain hurts!

curtis wrote:

Brother Ramses wrote:I would allow it, but it does not lift the restriction on assaulting on the turn he arrives.

But if you allow it you disregard the bit about not assaulting since you aren't using that part of the special rule since it only applies to his special deployment method. Also in effect your solution is the same as saying he can't and you place him 6 inches from the portal (corteaz "I was expecting you" exception)

Nothing lifts the restriction on when he arrives from Reserves that he is not allowed to assault. The only qualifier that not allowing him to assault is arriving from Reserves. So it doesn't matter how he arrives from Reserves, whenever he does, he is not allowed to assault. The rule does not say when he arrives from Reserves, using his special deployment, he cannot assault that turn. It says when he arrives from Reserves, he cannot assault that turn.

Ahhh RAI vs RAW.... the eternal debate..

DeathReaper wrote:You can "place him anywhere on the battlefield that is not within an inch of an enemy model"

This includes next to the webway portal.

Or you can have him come through the portal, as he is arriving from reserve, and "any of your units arriving from reserve may move onto the board from the portal marker's edge instead of entering as normal"

Either way is good.

No. He can only arrive via his special rule. "When he arrives from reserve, simply place him anywhere..." (my emphasis). There isn't a qualifier permitting other deployment options. He's placed in reserves and when he arrives place him anywhere on the battlefield. Sure you could place him on the near a WWP but that's aesthetics not using the WWP. Kheradruakh's special rule overrides the WWP special rule.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:You can "place him anywhere on the battlefield that is not within an inch of an enemy model"

This includes next to the webway portal.

Or you can have him come through the portal, as he is arriving from reserve, and "any of your units arriving from reserve may move onto the board from the portal marker's edge instead of entering as normal"

Either way is good.

No. He can only arrive via his special rule. "When he arrives from reserve, simply place him anywhere..." (my emphasis). There isn't a qualifier permitting other deployment options. He's placed in reserves and when he arrives place him anywhere on the battlefield. Sure you could place him on the near a WWP but that's aesthetics not using the WWP. Kheradruakh's special rule overrides the WWP special rule.

pg. 62- "... From then on, any of your units arriving from reserve may move onto the board from the portal marker's edge instead of entering as normal (it does not matter whether these units were intending to deep strike, outflank, simply move on from their own table edge, and so on)."

His special rule is his "normal" method of entering from reserve, so the WWP is an added option and is not overriden.

He can arrive via his special rule, or through the WWP, since the WWP says "instead of entering as normal" this allows him to use the WWP instead of entering as normal.

He still can not assault though due to his clause in his rules "He may not assault that turn, but may otherwise act normally."

Except his rule is more specific, as it covers any time he enters from Reserve

You can declare him as using the WWP, his special rule then kicks in which requires something else entirely. You dont get to break a rule just because.

what I am saying is it does not matter, since he cant assault anyway.

But why do you think his rule is more specific.

the WWP gives permission to break his rule of "When he arrives from reserve"

because WWP states "instead of entering as normal"

but again none of this matters since "He may not assault that turn, but may otherwise act normally."

so in effect he will only deploy using his rules, since he can not assault it does not matter where on the field you place him as long as you follow the 1 Inch restriction.

Thanks everyone.

We decided to play it that he can come out of a webway portal, and if he does, he can assault that turn. Basically, the webway portal rules will trump his normal reserves rules, so it's not necessary to include the not being able to assault part, as the entire rule has been bypassed. While the Decapitator is a lot more fearsome when he can assault without being shot at, unfortunately, he's still not worth his points cost.

I'll be tinkering with a crazy idea to have him come out of a portal and gain a pain token from a cronos engine, giving him strength 6 on the charge. There has to be some way to use this special character effectively...

Oaka wrote:Thanks everyone.
We decided to play it that he can come out of a webway portal, and if he does, he can assault that turn. Basically, the webway portal rules will trump his normal reserves rules, so it's not necessary to include the not being able to assault part, as the entire rule has been bypassed. While the Decapitator is a lot more fearsome when he can assault without being shot at, unfortunately, he's still not worth his points cost.

Well, that would be a house rule, which is fine, but not RAI or RAW.

Of course, my personal opinion is that RAI and RAW is garbage with regards to the inability to assault once you arrive via deepstrike (or his mechanism). While that is in place it's a waste of time to bring Mandrakes or the Decapitator... My one hope for 6th is that they change this. It would make a host of units across a range of armies much more ... interesting.

clively wrote:
Well, that would be a house rule, which is fine, but not RAI or RAW.

Except I was able to convince my local gaming group that it is RAW. I told them to take a look at this thread and it was a unanimous agreement.

Nothing lifts the restriction on when he arrives from Reserves that he is not allowed to assault.

So you and your group are playing by a house rule. Not that there is anything wrong with house rules, except they are not RAW.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except his rule is more specific, as it covers any time he enters from Reserve

You can declare him as using the WWP, his special rule then kicks in which requires something else entirely. You dont get to break a rule just because.

You never declare that someone is using the WWP. You declare reserves, and if they are using Deep Strike or Outflank, you declare that, but WWP is decided when they become available.

It is a fudge, but I'm leaning towards the 'he may jump out of the WWP, but may not assault on turns when he arrives from reserve' as my Rules As Badly Written interpretation.

If he cannot assault on the turn he comes out of the WWP, why would you even bother. He can appear anywhere not within 1" of someone and act normally following that. Why move him 6 inches out of a fixed portal when he still cannot assault.

Another example of abuse...if you give gamers a loophole they'll try to drive a truck through it.

Specific takes precedence over general. The WWP is specific to anything that can arrive through a WWP. His rule is specific to him. His entry says specifically that he cannot assault the turn he arrives, and gives you precise instructions on how to place him on the board when he arrives from reserves. There's nothing wrong with house-ruling it, but don't expect people outside of that local group to accept this, as it is clearly contrary to RAW.

somerandomdude wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Except his rule is more specific, as it covers any time he enters from Reserve

You can declare him as using the WWP, his special rule then kicks in which requires something else entirely. You dont get to break a rule just because.

You never declare that someone is using the WWP. You declare reserves, and if they are using Deep Strike or Outflank, you declare that, but WWP is decided when they become available.

Yes you do - you say "this model that has just arrived from reserves is using the webway portal", as this declares your decision to use the portal.

I did NOT state that "declare" mean the declaration on Reserves at the beginning of the game, you just assumed I did.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Another example of abuse...if you give gamers a loophole they'll try to drive a truck through it.

Specific takes precedence over general. The WWP is specific to anything that can arrive through a WWP. His rule is specific to him. His entry says specifically that he cannot assault the turn he arrives, and gives you precise instructions on how to place him on the board when he arrives from reserves. There's nothing wrong with house-ruling it, but don't expect people outside of that local group to accept this, as it is clearly contrary to RAW.

The WWP is General, Any unit is a general statement. His rule is Specific to him.

Back to the actualy question, even if you could use the WWP, nothing removes the "May not assault the turn he arrives from Reserves" part of his rule. If the OP quoted the rule correctly with correct punctuation, then the May not assault is a seperate sentence. It is not dependant on how he arrives from reserves, only that he arrives from reserves, if if he does so then he may not assault. If you do convince someone in to believing the WWP overrides how he enters play, he still enters from Reserves. Since he entered from Reserves that turn, he is banned from assaulting.