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In english, it is common knowledge that after an f, you have a ves for plural, eg; wolf wolves knife knives calf calves

So, why do you say dwarfs? Surely it is dwarves, in english.

I feel like Im watching a crazy guy yelling at the air on the street.. I dont know, why does he say dwarfs?? Since you keep saying "you" and im not sure who you're referring too!

Maybe he or she can make.. themselfs.. known

Polish on the brass of the Titanic. Have you seen the rapine and slaughter of grammar that is the internet?

Gavin Thorne wrote:Polish on the brass of the Titanic. Have you seen the rapine and slaughter of grammar that is the internet?

LOLOLOL i dunno wut you men,, gavin. the garmmr iz fin!

For what it's worth, Tolkien was very adamant that editors not change "dwarfs" and "elfs" to "dwarves" and "elves." I don't recall the reason, but I suspect it has to do with the fact that neither is a natively English word (though they've both been adopted, obviously).

I'm not sure how plurals are handled in Scandinavian languages; but, yes, the -ves ending is proper English and therefore the preferred version. However, English also makes plenty of room for unusual plurals, especially for foreign words; see "octopus." Neither octopi or octopodes is incorrect (though you'd be hard-pressed to get octopodes to fly in most circles).

Dwarfs is the proper form of the term, at least here in the states. Look into the night sky, and you might see some red dwarfs. Snow White befriended seven dwarfs.

IIRC, Tolkien (or possibly his editors) called them Dwarves, and started a trend. I'm not sure if 'Dwarves' is a British-ism or something adopted for flavor, but it's become pretty common in fantasy- but not in Warhammer.

I've heard this one before. Apparently you are supposed to say "Dwarfs", though I don't know why the rule would be different to elves (which I think is accepted).

There is no such rule. Where are you getting this?

Surf. Surfs.
Belief. Beliefs.
Muff. Muffs.

There are many more examples of nouns like this. Dwarves is the name Tolkien gave to his mythical creature. The word Dwarfs, however, has a different meaning depending on the context. In this case, GW decided they wanted their mythical creatures to be dwarfs.

The answer, as anybody who could be bothered to check the OED would know, is that 'dwarfs' is in fact the correct English plural of 'dwarf'. 'Dwarves' was coined by JRR Tolkien for The Hobbit in order to give his fantasy stunties a more mythic air.

I say Dwarves. Vive la Tolkein!

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:I say Dwarves. Vive la Tolkein!

But would you say 'dwarves' if you were just describing a group of short people, rather than members of a bearded, axe-wielding fantasy race?

"dwarves" was an invention of tolkein.''Dwarfs'' is the traditional spelling.

EdIT: English Assassin beat me to it.

I would say "dwarves," actually. I also say leaves and knives. I've never had call to refer to more than one staff, but I'd probably say "staves," which is acceptable, if not preferred.

I don't have a good reference handy, but Wiki cites a source that says the "-ves" ending was an Old and Middle English rule for certain sounds that was retained by many words in modern English. So, taking Wiki at face value, it's not a rule per se in modern English, but many words do conform to it. (Most style guides -- at least the ones I work with -- dodge the issue by referring to a specific dictionary for preferred plural forms.) I was taught the rule in primary school by a dictatorial grammarian, and hadn't had call to look into it since.

As an aside, irregularity in proper nouns (such as Smurf, Smurfs v. Smurves) isn't a good indicator of the existence of a rule.

I am surprised that I misremembered the Tolkien anecdote, though. I was sure he insisted on "-s" rather than "-ves."

Note to self: quick check on Wiki before a post never hurts.

Kirasu wrote:I feel like Im watching a crazy guy yelling at the air on the street.. I dont know, why does he say dwarfs?? Since you keep saying "you" and im not sure who you're referring too!

Maybe he or she can make.. themselfs.. known

I say you, as in those who use the phrase.

Gavin Thorne wrote:Polish on the brass of the Titanic. Have you seen the rapine and slaughter of grammar that is the internet?

Yes. It pains me.

Barksdale wrote:There is no such rule. Where are you getting this?

Surf. Surfs.
Belief. Beliefs.
Muff. Muffs.

There are many more examples of nouns like this. Dwarves is the name Tolkien gave to his mythical creature. The word Dwarfs, however, has a different meaning depending on the context. In this case, GW decided they wanted their mythical creatures to be dwarfs.

That's like saying i before e is not a rule.
It should be Beliefs because that is an abstract noun.
It surves would be hard to pronounce.
It doesn't apply when there are two Fs to the best of my knowledge, otherwise it would be mufves

Crazy_Carnifex wrote:I say Dwarves. Vive la Tolkein!

Thankyou.

I don't understand its being fs. it should be ves because I feel that all other common nouns have ves.

Also, the GW company uses elves, so they should standardise and use dwarves

I prefer Dorfs but no one knows where thats from

(everytime on a certain forum when they talked about dwarf fortress, they always called it dorf fortress)

So usually I like using V's

Barksdale wrote:There is no such rule. Where are you getting this?

Surf. Surfs.
Belief. Beliefs.
Muff. Muffs.

There are many more examples of nouns like this. Dwarves is the name Tolkien gave to his mythical creature. The word Dwarfs, however, has a different meaning depending on the context. In this case, GW decided they wanted their mythical creatures to be dwarfs.

Scipio Africanus wrote:
That's like saying i before e is not a rule.
It should be Beliefs because that is an abstract noun.
It surves would be hard to pronounce.
It doesn't apply when there are two Fs to the best of my knowledge, otherwise it would be mufves

You gave examples wolves, knives, and such. I gave counter examples surfs, beliefs, etc. These are just tendencies. Unfortunately, languages do not have "rules". There are always exceptions to these so called rules. Then they are not really rules.

And "i before e" is not a rule either. All I have to do is come up with an exception: Vein.

Things are the way they are just because that is how they are. Not because there is some "rule" that says so. This is not just limited to English.

Edit again: In any case, say it (or write it) however you want to. The context will tell people what you really mean.

kenshin620 wrote:I prefer Dorfs

Me too, especially when golf references (for example) can also be used.

Also, Dwarfs is at least as correct.

RE: Topic

Because no one likes to say 'Squats'.

djphranq wrote:RE: Topic

Because no one likes to say 'Squats'.

Zing!

Problem with English as a language:

It's not just one language

There's Pictish, Norse, Gaelic, Saxon (early germanic) , Norman French, More Norse, Urdu, Gujarati, Hindi, Assorted African words, Latin, Ancient Greek...

English is an amalgam of these languages, all of which are structured differently, from the many times England has been invaded and settled, or done the invading and imported words and ideas.

Norman french linguistic structure and grammar aren't all that compatible with Norse, so they have been haphazardly mixed together, with some words using their original endings and others modifying to fit the changing language.

A lot of this happened before the language was codified and officially grammaticized, and yuo couldn't just change half the language without confusing a lot of people

Eldar and Squats. Done.

Scipio Africanus wrote:Also, the GW company uses elves, so they should standardise and use dwarves

They do use 'dwarves'... for Lord of the Rings.

For everything else, they use the traditional spelling, because that's the way they roll.


They don't use 'Elfs' because it's not a real word. And sounds silly.

And dwarfs IS the traditional spelling... you've been told that 'dwarves' was just an invention of Tolkein's, yet don't seem willing to accept (or even acknowledge) that answer

Of course I like to use both, because limiting your experiences is boring. Dwarfs, dwarves... why not have both? They are both perfectly acceptable within the bounds of the English language. Neither is 'correct', really, although 'dwarfs' is more likely to be so given that it is the plural for the 'dwarf people' that actually exist, rather than the fantasy Tolkein version.

I don't know. I like Dwarves myself - for some reason Ebay feels obliged to change it to 'Dwarfs' automatically

Dwarves just sounds and looks better for me. When I see dwarfs I see it as a verb instead of more than one dwarf.

As far as I know, Dwarves is fine when used in context to refer to J.R.R. Tolkien's work or general fantasy. In addition, he sometimes uses the word "dwarrow" or "dwerrows" to refer to dwarves, which, according to Tolkien, are 'historical'. I'm sure we can all agree that Dwarves sounds better, though.

Dwarfs is also fine, and should be used when referring to little people in real life. This is also the spelling that was used and written in dictionaries before Tolkien's use of the word "dwarves".

As well, words like elves can also be pluralized as elfs, elven as elfin, as they are the historical examples, I believe. Elves and Elven sounds much better, though.

As well, "ves" doesn't always go after an "f". We don't use "rooves" as a plural for roof these days, so there's clearly some inconsistencies in the current form.

I wonder if both are accurate, and it's a difference in meaning. You get very different sorts of dwarf. Like the plural of mouse is mice, but a computer mouse is often 'mouses'.

You get real life 'dwarfs', people suffering from dwarfism, but the fictional-fantasy bearded ones who like shiny stuff and live underground are "dwarves".

At least, that how I think it should be. Because that would make the singular - "dwarf" - a homophone. It would refer to both a real world dwarf, and the fantasy caricature, but the plural would differentiate them.

I seem to recall reading that Dwarfs is the plural of Dwarf.
But, Dwarves falls off the back of Dwarven.

I think Lord of the Rings Online has a guide on when to use which.

It does leave us with:
Elf, Elves, Elven
Dwarf, Dwarfs, Dwarven

Howard A Treesong wrote: Like the plural of mouse is mice, but a computer mouse is often 'mouses'.

I can't say that I have ever heard anyone use 'mouses' for computer peripherals.

Beregond wrote:And dwarfs IS the traditional spelling... you've been told that 'dwarves' was just an invention of Tolkein's, yet don't seem willing to accept (or even acknowledge) that answer

Because it's not.

However, I don't think that Dwarfs is any more or less correct than Dwarves. In fact, there are a lot of -f words that are pluralized either as -fs or -ves.