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Here is the situation, and I added a poll in to make things clearer.

The Scenario: You have a Squadron of three Leman Russ tanks and they are arriving from reserves. They are trying to come on a section of the table that has terrain such that it is closer to the board edge than the vehicle can move on completely without touching it. One of them fails it's terrain check and is immobilizes itself before it could fully enter the table, destroying itself (as per the Main Rulebook FAQ). What happens to the rest?

Option A: The Squadron survives the loss, since destroyed vehicle are immediately wrecked, the wreck happens before you check if the unit could enter completely.
Option B: The Squadron is destroyed, as it could not fully deploy all it's units on the table, this check 'activates' before the one Russ is destroyed.

I could see both sides of it, but I may be missing a rule that could decide this.

The new FAQ says B.

When a vehicle is immobilized in a squadron it becomes wrecked, this means that is no longer part of the unit, thus the unit may come in just fine.

juraigamer wrote:When a vehicle is immobilized in a squadron it becomes wrecked, this means that is no longer part of the unit, thus the unit may come in just fine.

This; an example would be 2xLRBT coming on from reserve.
One rolls a 1 for DT and is Immob; Destroyed via Squadron rules;
Second rolls fine and moves onto the board

The unit which is now the 1 tank is fully on the board as a wrecked vehicle is not part of the unit

Making up order of operations for rules that have none for personal gain. This reminds me of people who claimed rams had to destroy a vehicle for a vehicle with a deffrolla toncontinue moving because somehow the ram happened before the deffrolla.

If they happen at exactly the same time, both results are applied, which means the entire squadron is destroyed because for one brief moment in time, the entire unit did not come on the board.

You can't apply an order to lean the rules for personal advantage, it is possible for things to happen at the same time.

Where are the rules about infantry squads walking on, and one model not making it? Doesn't the squad die out right in such case? If so, then the same is applied to Russ' is it not?

However when its immobilized it's no longer part of the unit as it is destroyed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:Making up order of operations for rules that have none for personal gain. This reminds me of people who claimed rams had to destroy a vehicle for a vehicle with a deffrolla toncontinue moving because somehow the ram happened before the deffrolla.

If they happen at exactly the same time, both results are applied, which means the entire squadron is destroyed because for one brief moment in time, the entire unit did not come on the board.

You can't apply an order to lean the rules for personal advantage, it is possible for things to happen at the same time.

Actually no, when it's immobilized its destroyed and no longer part of the unit ... so is just a piece of dangerous terrain.

A obviously.... unless the vehicle destroyed prevents the others from getting on the board somehow

Dracheous wrote:Where are the rules about infantry squads walking on, and one model not making it? Doesn't the squad die out right in such case?

No such rules exist.

Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves perform
a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move
along with its direction and move the tank onto the board
that many inches, measuring from the board edge as for a
normal from reserve. The tank shock is performed as
usual. However, if the tank is forced to stop for any reason
before the entire vehicle is on the board then the vehicle,
and any embarked units, count as destroyed and are
removed from play.

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

I see nothing that says an order of operations that the model becomes immobilized and wrecked BEFORE the end of the unit's movement. The Unable to move due to immobilized and immobilized becoming a wreck happen AT THE EXACT SAME TIME so both results are applied. Which is the entire unit is destroyed. You have no option to apply the immobilized result BEFORE applying the 'cannot move on to the board' result.

Portugal Jones wrote:

Dracheous wrote:Where are the rules about infantry squads walking on, and one model not making it? Doesn't the squad die out right in such case?

No such rules exist.

I was REALLY sure such a rule existed....

Portugal Jones wrote:

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

Oh, there it is; Thanks Jones! Glad to know I've not been getting hosed for having large armies .

nkelsch wrote:Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves perform
a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move
along with its direction and move the tank onto the board
that many inches, measuring from the board edge as for a
normal from reserve. The tank shock is performed as
usual. However, if the tank is forced to stop for any reason
before the entire vehicle is on the board then the vehicle,
and any embarked units, count as destroyed and are
removed from play.

Absolutely right, but if its immobilized it's already destroyed so this doesn't even pertain

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

I see nothing that says an order of operations that the model becomes immobilized and wrecked BEFORE the end of the unit's movement. The Unable to move due to immobilized and immobilized becoming a wreck happen AT THE EXACT SAME TIME so both results are applied. Which is the entire unit is destroyed. You have no option to apply the immobilized result BEFORE applying the 'cannot move on to the board' result.

Less specific vs More Specific than, Squadron rules are more specific.

As above. The instant it is immobilised it is destroyed - at no point then has the entire unit failed to make it onto the board. You can only check at the end of their movement, not at any point in between UNLESS tankshokcing.

However common sense and sportsmanship would say that if (assuming it wasn't immoblised) that the vehicle would have fitted, eg you brought them on from a legitimate area then the surviving vehicles would be ok.

A bit of sense would be in order lads...

Yea, not seeing where an immobilized vehicle in a squadron ever causes the squadron to stop. Hence only the immobilized one would be destroyed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above. The instant it is immobilised it is destroyed - at no point then has the entire unit failed to make it onto the board. You can only check at the end of their movement, not at any point in between UNLESS tankshokcing.

But the instant it is immobilized it has been "forced to stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the board", just because it happens at the exact same time as another rule which makes the immobilized vehicle wrecked doesn't mean one happens before the other or one invalidates the other. Nothing in the squadron rules replaces the fully moving on the board or says you check for wrecked status before you stop moving.

It is possible for two rules to happen at the exact same time. The second the vehicle stopped moving it became stop moving and immobilized and wrecked all at once, there is no 'order' where one happens before another. This means both results would apply.

nkelsch wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above. The instant it is immobilised it is destroyed - at no point then has the entire unit failed to make it onto the board. You can only check at the end of their movement, not at any point in between UNLESS tankshokcing.

But the instant it is immobilized it has been "forced to stop for any reason before the entire vehicle is on the board", just because it happens at the exact same time as another rule which makes the immobilized vehicle wrecked doesn't mean one happens before the other or one invalidates the other. Nothing in the squadron rules replaces the fully moving on the board or says you check for wrecked status before you stop moving.

It is possible for two rules to happen at the exact same time. The second the vehicle stopped moving it became stop moving and immobilized and wrecked all at once, there is no 'order' where one happens before another. This means both results would apply.

nkelsch wrote:Q: Can a vehicle that is moving on from reserves perform
a tank shock? (p68)
A: Yes it can, declare the distance it is going to move
along with its direction and move the tank onto the board
that many inches, measuring from the board edge as for a
normal from reserve. The tank shock is performed as
usual. However, if the tank is forced to stop for any reason
before the entire vehicle is on the board then the vehicle,
and any embarked units, count as destroyed and are
removed from play.

Q: What happens when a unit arrives from reserves but is
unable to completely move onto the board? (p94)
A: The unit is destroyed and removed from play.

I see nothing that says an order of operations that the model becomes immobilized and wrecked BEFORE the end of the unit's movement. The Unable to move due to immobilized and immobilized becoming a wreck happen AT THE EXACT SAME TIME so both results are applied. Which is the entire unit is destroyed. You have no option to apply the immobilized result BEFORE applying the 'cannot move on to the board' result.

You're trying to treat a wreck as a unit than, which you may not do. As soon as it stops moving it's no longer part of the unit, just a heap of slag so to speak.

I voted A but I'm thinking B applies. If it does not, how does the FAQ ruling ever get applied, outside of a single model unit?

Homer

Nkelsch - you're trying to treat the specific tank shock answer as being applicable to any time a vehicle "stops" - presumably you dont include moving, stopping, pivoting?

The unit has only failed to come on if, at the end of their movement, the unit hasnt made it on. By this point the vehicle has been destroyed

Homer S wrote:I voted A but I'm thinking B applies. If it does not, how does the FAQ ruling ever get applied, outside of a single model unit?

Homer

Not enough room either due to the opponent, or your own parking lot.

Also this applies to Infantry and the like too, so SnP units on 40MM bases(i believe) broadsides with the upgrade etc; that roll a double 1 fail to come on the board and are destroyed.

Option A as a member of the unit being destroyed != unit not being able to complete its move onto the board. The tank shock answer is taken out of context as it seems to be referring to "stop" as end of movement (IE as from no room to move furthers, immobilized, etc.), not a temporary condition, and there is no implication that it would apply to the other unit members who did not stop.

It is 'A' because the immobilized/wrecked happens immediately while the check for if they all made it on completely happens at the end of the unit's movement. Once the tank is wrecked, it is no longer part of the unit, so it doesn't count either way.

-cgmckenzie

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Not enough room either due to the opponent, or your own parking lot.

Also this applies to Infantry and the like too, so SnP units on 40MM bases(i believe) broadsides with the upgrade etc; that roll a double 1 fail to come on the board and are destroyed.

So lets take a more simple case. Lets say the only place to put the 3 tank unit is near your "parking lot" and there is only room for two of the three vehicles. Is the unit destroyed or just the third tank?

Homer

In that situation, the entire unit is destroyed. This is because the one that cannot make it on entirely wasn't destroyed before the end of movement, so it is still a part of the unit once the time for the check comes around.

-cgmckenzie

As above. there is a difference between being destroyed during movement, and being destroyed at the end of movement

jmurph wrote:Option A as a member of the unit being destroyed != unit not being able to complete its move onto the board.

I agree.

It's definitely option A because the destruction of the squadron member happens before the end of the movement phase and thus the other member is still free to continue with it's full movement .

nkelsch wrote:The new FAQ says B.

I would suggest this comment is basically a waste of space without clarification.

The main rule to follow here is that the vehicle is part of a sqaudron. P.64 says to treat all immobilized results as destroyed. The vehicle was never immobilized just destroyed. This leaves the rest of the sqaud to move on without the destroyed vehicle.

nosferatu1001 wrote:As above. The instant it is immobilised it is destroyed - at no point then has the entire unit failed to make it onto the board. You can only check at the end of their movement, not at any point in between UNLESS tankshokcing.

This.