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Hey there!

I was just wondering if any of the fine dakka folk could answer me a question, why do some people make mini dioramas and then put them between the ranks in their units? Are the dioramas supposed to still count for units? Do they not count as units and are just there for decoration?

An example: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1700002&pIndex=1&aId=10500070a&multiPageMode=true&start=2 The fiend in the ranks of the daemonettes.

Thx!

There is a thread about this somewhere, going to look for it. In the meantime, I don't like them. I want to see exactly what I'm up against, and a diorama is a mask for that. In a friendly game I guess it could work, but otherwise no.

Edit - Here you go

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/385325.page#3217366

They are used as unit fillers often for the sake of saving money on models.

They are usually used in larger units to replace 5 or 6 models of infantry so that you need fewer models from a box in the unit.

As far as their role in game, they are replaced with regular infantry once the unit has enough models killed that the filler would be affected by wounds.

Thank you very much!

Thanks for the thread Necroshea!

I am TOTALLY fine with these, and have faced them in tournaments. I've seen major GT winners who use them. You just have to be tactful about it, but it's definitely acceptable.

Necroshea wrote:I want to see exactly what I'm up against, and a diorama is a mask for that.

How is it a mask? I didn't even notice the one linked to in the OP until I looked closely. If a unit is 5x6, you know there are 30 models in it... if there's a larger base in the midst of it with a cool looking scene, or a big rock, or whatever, I still know exactly what I'm facing.

RiTides wrote:I am TOTALLY fine with these, and have faced them in tournaments. I've seen major GT winners who use them. You just have to be tactful about it, but it's definitely acceptable.

Necroshea wrote:I want to see exactly what I'm up against, and a diorama is a mask for that.

How is it a mask? I didn't even notice the one linked to in the OP until I looked closely. If a unit is 5x6, you know there are 30 models in it... if there's a larger base in the midst of it with a cool looking scene, or a big rock, or whatever, I still know exactly what I'm facing.

I'm also completely fine with them, and cannot fathom why they'd bother anyone if they're done within reason, or even how they could begin to 'mask' units. A diorama shouldn't really even start until the 3rd rank (2nd rank might be pushing it), and should also leave the sides of the unit with models, and at least 1 back rank, and if you can't tell what a unit is from that, then God knows how you managed to deal with the old 7th edition rule that only required 50% of the unit to be outfitted correctly.

I don't see how a block of GW Marauders without unit fillers is any harder to discern from one with a unit filler, unless the addition of such an item has suddenly clouded your vision and you can only look at it and not the unit.

Avatar 720 wrote:God knows how you managed to deal with the old 7th edition rule that only required 50% of the unit to be outfitted correctly.

That still exists.

HoverBoy wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:God knows how you managed to deal with the old 7th edition rule that only required 50% of the unit to be outfitted correctly.

That still exists.

Where? I can't find it in my 8th RB.

I'm also completely fine with it, though I still try and fit a number of models appropriate to the unit on the filler i.e. if I were to replace 4 Ungors with a tree on a 40mm base, I'd have an Ungor or two around the foot of the tree.

Dioramas make units look amazing and they don't have to be overly complicated. I'm using the wounded Orc from the Empire Archers set in the front rank of my new Orc unit. He's mounted on a cavalry base alongside the unit musician.

Avatar 720 wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:God knows how you managed to deal with the old 7th edition rule that only required 50% of the unit to be outfitted correctly.

That still exists.

Where? I can't find it in my 8th RB.

At the start of the weapons section it says that it's acceptable for the minority of the unit to have different gear.
Minority=49% or less. So the rule changed by 1% in 8th.

Minority actually = <50%, not 49% (since 49.9% would still be a minority) but unnecessary pedantry aside...

That'll help a lot now I know where it is, some of the people I play haven't exactly taken to reading the 8th edition rulebook very thoroughly, so it's always nice to be able to quickly find a rule like this.

Avatar 720 wrote:Minority actually = <50%, not 49% (since 49.9% would still be a minority) but unnecessary pedantry aside...

Good God, how big are your units? If I play against you, my concern wont be WHAT those models are, but why there's more than a hundred of them.

My units?
They're 30 saurus tops.

"Can't say I agree with the "rule of cool". I want to see cool looking figs integrated with rank and file blocks. I don't want to have to deal with figuring out how many units your little patch of scenery counts as.

Not generally wysiwyg?
Not showing the same amounts of figures that it's representing?
Not showing the right units?

No, just no. If it's about poorhammer there are better ways to play, if it's because you want to make your army something special besides cool looking conversions and interesting paint schemes, then enter in a scenery competition or something. Try to bring something like that to the game and I simply won't play you. "

My post copied directly out of the link I posted earlier.

...But, as previously stated, if it's a 4X5 block then you know it's twenty models, no matter how much multi-basing is going on. And so long as it's clearly indicated what wargear is in the unit, wysiwyg doesn't matter too much.

Besides, some people are mainly in the hobby for the modelling and converting, but still want to be able to play games with their models.

I like having different base sizes in it.

Several of my friends have unit fillers for one reason or another.

For skaven if you add a few rat ogres to a 60 man clan rat unit that also looks kind of cool.

I personally have war hounds mixed in with my marauder unit.
Im pretty sure anyone will be able to tell that there are no actual rat ogres in the unit or no war hounds in eh unit.

I think it is more fun playing against an army with something cool in every unit rather than a plain no model is made different they are exactly as they are supposed to be built and its boring.

Necroshea wrote:"Can't say I agree with the "rule of cool". I want to see cool looking figs integrated with rank and file blocks. I don't want to have to deal with figuring out how many units your little patch of scenery counts as.

Not generally wysiwyg?
Not showing the same amounts of figures that it's representing?
Not showing the right units?

No, just no. If it's about poorhammer there are better ways to play, if it's because you want to make your army something special besides cool looking conversions and interesting paint schemes, then enter in a scenery competition or something. Try to bring something like that to the game and I simply won't play you. "

My post copied directly out of the link I posted earlier.

Lack of WYSIWYG is pointless, since units only have to have a majority of models equipped the same, so you'd have similar trouble if 19 models in a 40-man unit had GWs, and the other 21 had Halberds; both are two handed weapons that look menacing.

Not showing the right amount of figures is highly unlikely, since unit fillers are usually based to fit in correctly with the unit. Count how many are at the front, then how many are down the side, and you win. Or, if you can't even be bothered doing that, ask.

Not showing the right units is also pointless; if they had the right things to put in, why the filler?

You just sound incredibly uptight over a non-issue. If the entire unit is scenery, then yes, it's stupid, but as long as there are identifiable ranks, where is the issue? Is it that you dislike people without as much disposable income playing you? Because there really isn't any logical answer for your lack of willingness to play anyone with something in their unit. It is regularly displayed that GW uses unit fillers and dioramas, and even reccommends their use, yet for some reason they are inferior to play against?

If there's a unit of 30 Chaos Marauders with HW/S, first two ranks of 5, the back rank of 5, and both side columns are complete and WYSIWYG (so 21 out of the 30 models are there) but there's a scratch-built Tzeentch Icon occupying the missing 9 models, it is the same height as the marauder unit, and is used to denote their Mark of Tzeentch, then what exactly are you opposed to? It has identifiable models (21 of them in fact, over 2/3rds of the unit) that you can see are armed with HW/S, identifiable ranks and columns so you can see right away that it's got a column of 6, and a row of 5, so it must be a unit of 30 running 5x6, Musician, Standard Bearer and Champion are all clearly denoted, no LoS issues... What is the trouble? Has the tzeentch icon suddenly thrown you off?

You are giving no issues that are not easily rectified by people who use dioramas properly, all you come across as doing is throwing a tantrum if someone even suggests using one.

Avatar 720 wrote:You are giving no issues that are not easily rectified by people who use dioramas properly, all you come across as doing is throwing a tantrum if someone even suggests using one.

I don't like them, deal with it. I've also already discussed this in a thread already. You know, the one I linked to at the top, thus the reasons I used qoutes to repeat something I've already said.

Necroshea wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:You are giving no issues that are not easily rectified by people who use dioramas properly, all you come across as doing is throwing a tantrum if someone even suggests using one.

I don't like them, deal with it.

You're the one being unnecessarily stubborn, yet I should deal with it? I don't see the logic here.

Guys, pointless argument. I suggest you both deal with disagreeing.

I second hoverboy or this results in trolling and mods we dont want any of that.

I mean people that have the models to field an entire unit of whatever still like dioramas so its not like they are cheaping out just a point.

You never stated why you didnt like dioramas or what is sometimes called a unit filler can you explain that since right now it just seems odd and like you want to not see any imagination put into the model(s)/ units look other than paint from what I am reading.

So if someone put a giant banner in a unit and painted it up scary would that throw you off too and make the unit seem scarier?

Would this also count for say vc if he summoned a unit of say zombies and the guy decided to build them with a kit bash between zombies and skeletons and some where more skele than zombie would that be one of those things too?

Just trying to see the reasoning and why you dont like dioramas?

cowpow16 wrote:I mean people that have the models to field an entire unit of whatever still like dioramas so its not like they are cheaping out just a point.

Like me, i have the models and still use my fillers every single game.

Because they look cool and I bet you invested more time and effort in the filler than in the models that would have been there right?

Personally I really like the fillers on larger units.

I mean 18 man unit of chaos warriors that dosnt need a filler unless its super awesome but I mean 30 man units and more are boring looking if its all the same thing even if they are nice models and nicely painted its still dull.

The flavor that the fillers add make it nice and totally awesome.

Yes i did, especially proud of the reposed temple guardian who takes up two spots and has the added bonus of not poking his halberd in the slaan's chairtusks.

Also forgot to ask this what about say units that are scratch built im going to use dragon ogres as an example.
1 The gw model is ugly as sin.
2 you can make a much cooler model as Buttlerthepug has on his blog.
3. They sort of resemble the actual gw model except they are 1000% more awesome and cool would that be ok or not ok for you?


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Haha making models rank up using fillers is quite nice I have seen quite a few that dont rank up all too well those DE corsairs if i remember correctly if not build carefully will be a mess.

cowpow16 wrote:I second hoverboy or this results in trolling and mods we dont want any of that.

I mean people that have the models to field an entire unit of whatever still like dioramas so its not like they are cheaping out just a point.

You never stated why you didnt like dioramas or what is sometimes called a unit filler can you explain that since right now it just seems odd and like you want to not see any imagination put into the model(s)/ units look other than paint from what I am reading.

So if someone put a giant banner in a unit and painted it up scary would that throw you off too and make the unit seem scarier?

Would this also count for say vc if he summoned a unit of say zombies and the guy decided to build them with a kit bash between zombies and skeletons and some where more skele than zombie would that be one of those things too?

Just trying to see the reasoning and why you dont like dioramas?

"The reason I have so much against it is because of the concept that if it looks good, then there is no problem. In that light, if I go to some location where a group of people all think it's okay to replace blocks of troops with legos, or cardboard boxes, or even a giant conch. I see no difference between these things, and a piece of scenery that just as poorly represents the figures. You might think there's a big difference between a piece of warhammer scenery and said giant conch, but there really isn't. Both are the same thing, only the conch is missing a few layers of paint and skulls.

If you truly are that poor, just make cardboard squares with the information written on them. I have absolutely no issue with that.

I'm not really that harsh of a player, honest. I just feel that if I have to shell out the cash to buy overpriced plastic, my opponent should too. When someone fields something that's not a unit and acts like it's just as good as a unit (in other words saying no I'm not poor at all, but I'm fielding poorhammer units), then we have issues. "

Once again, posted from the thread that already happened.

cowpow16 wrote:Haha making models rank up using fillers is quite nice I have seen quite a few that dont rank up all too well those DE corsairs if i remember correctly if not build carefully will be a mess.

Oh the shuddering memories of getting a pose that both looks cool and ranks up... took like half a day.

When done well, they can add character to the unit and make the whole force look more of an impressive site on the tabletop. They also help with the brain drain feeling of knowing you have to paint a mass of similar looking models without ending up in a padded cell, and as others have said helps to cut down costs a little.

The way 8th edition has gone in favouring larger blocks of infantry, my guess is we will see more and more of them in the future.

Well what if they used actual gw models?
Like say hoverboy who has the models but still uses unit fillers.

I dont mean using bits of card board or legos I'm talking about using actual gw minis with maybe a bit of green stuff and creativity.

Like for goblins having a large base with 4 or so goblins squabbling or fighting over a piece of meat fits into the army super well and that mixed with a bit of other stuff in the goblin hordes makes that giant bland unit of how ever many goblins look pretty neat and interesting.

Again I'm not talking about using lego or card board but using actual models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also something else that is not super but i dont mind in a game is proxying a unit because you want to try it out before you spend a lot of money on the models seems legitimate but i would like it to at least be models rather than paper or card board.
Unless the opponent is an ass I would be ok with that. If its a tournament not so much but if i can tell what the unit is im ok if i ask what it is and I understand why they look the way they do also no problem.

Something to consider is that GW actually supports the use of dioramas. What's New Today often has such unit fillers featured in the units they put up. they had an entire post devoted to it last year.

Of course they focused on the story aspect of it and not the fact you can save money.



I have filler for my gnoblars. I have 2 pack gnoblars arguing with a look out gnoblar in the middle of my gnoblar unit. its quite funny.