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I admit it, I have always been an avid ‘nid fan. Despite how much GW hates the bugs I will play them as my primary army for a long, long time. Yes Space wolves got ML spam and JotWW. Yes DE got poison weapons that bring down the 6 wounds gribblies with little effort. And yes GK’s brought out army wide force weapons, Warp Quake and Cleansing Flame. It seems as though GW can’t do enough to banish the bugs to the darkest recesses of 40k, yet the Hive mind endures.

So with that out of the way I would like to go through my thoughts on how Nids can still compete. Now I’m not saying I’m the first, or even the best at this kind of thing. Goodness knows there are more competent generals out there that prove time and time again that nids can compete at the highest levels of play (check out the stuff written by Hulksmash, Yermon, Shep and Janthkin for some of the best nid advice around).

When building bug lists for competitive play you have to look at what the likely and most successful opposition you will face. Mech IG, SW, WWP DE and Mech DE, Crowe GK and Coteaz GK are all up there. So how do you build a list that minimizes weaknesses against these? One unit in particular stands out above all the rest in the nid codex:

Genestealers.

There are of course other great choices in the codex but for popping light transports and shredding infantry alike in close combat there is no greater threat on the table. They are also extremely fast with Fleet, Move Through Cover and Infiltrate. This gives them an instant edge against a lot of opponents since they should be static to get the most out of their shooting phase. Even faster enemies (such as DE) find themselves limited in their movement due to the sheer number of bodies you can put on the table only 18” away. With proper spacing blasts and templates are hardly a problem and if placed properly (the conga line approach) they can be given FnP from a Tervigon with little fear of a psychic hood interrupting. Even better is that they aren’t multi wound models. I know it sounds counter intuitive but if we take a Ravener as an example, a single S8 hit can drop his 3 wounds in an instant. Even worse if a force weapon gets activated this guy (and a lot of other Raveners) are in big trouble. The Genestealer has no such concern, and any S8 weapons trying to bypass his FnP roll are not being aimed at something much larger…a Trygon, or a brood of Hive Guard for instance, and at best are going to remove a single Genestealer each (and with a 4+ cover save if properly deployed).

Discussing the Genestealer even further we can also see the different kind of broods we can run. How many should you take? what upgrades should the brood be given? Should you add a Broodlord? These all need to be carefully considered when designing your brood. I personally go for large broods over small ones (at least 15) and regularly give them Toxin Sacs. Larger broods have several advantages over smaller ones.

1. They can take some casualties without being hindered too badly as a force to be reckoned with.

2. They can start on the table and offer a lot more area denial than smaller broods which have a tendency to Outflank (don’t do this with larger broods since they become unwieldy and more susceptible to flamer weapons as they struggle to get into a position to get everything in charge range). They also give your opponent more target saturation and give them more tough choices.

Now this isn’t to say that Outflanking broods are bad. They also have advantages. Outflanking can be considered as a great option of keeping units away from table edges, but also has some inherent disadvantages. A well castled corner is going going to be a tough nut to crack and small numbers of Genestealers are going to just bounce off a castle and be annihilated in return. You are also relying on coming in on the right side AND at the right time. Nothing sucks worse than getting your nasty brood all the way over from where the action is, or getting there Turn 5 when all their primary targets are elsewhere. There are variables to help (such as the Swarmlord or Hive Commander) but these are expensive and still leave room for dice rolls. Keeping small units on the table to infiltrate can also be done, but there is again a chance for deployment to screw you. If you roll DoW which is scarier, 2 broods of 20 or 2 broods of 8. In this case you may end up just outflanking the smaller units anyway, while with 40 stealers halfway up the table you can provide an immediate threat. Keep in mind that if you do use small broods a Broodlord may be worth it since the unit can’t soak up as much damage.

Now moving on we have already touched on Tervigons (if briefly) so we can expand on them here. Catalyst is possibly the best support power in the codex by providing FnP to whatever needs the most. Try to think ahead and plan for what your opponent will be shooting at. You can even help dictate your opponents shooting phase by giving them the choice of going after your FnP units vs those that missed out. In this way you dictate some of your opponents shooting.

It would also be remiss to point out the obvious benefits of giving the Tervigon Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs. While not much use to this lumbering slug, the benefit to nearby gaunts gives a huge return on the investment. With these and Counter-Attack you can be sure an objective is safely guarded from most threats on the table and make 5pt gaunts a force to be reckoned with.

Something to consider heavily though is the survivability of the Tervigon. If this dude is the only monstrous Creature on the table be aware he is going to get hit by every anti-tank weapon in the enemy arsenal. Negate this by giving your opponent more threats to think about. Adding a couple of Trygons, a Tyrant, Hive Guard or even a T-fex for cover saves makes their decision process much more difficult.

Another great unit is the Hive Guard. I know these have been done to death on the web but some things are worth repeating. These are our most reliable ranged anti-transport units so try to keep them alive. Screen with gaunts if necessary, but also keep them out of LoS if at all possible with range to all those transports. If your opponent is fielding Manticores hug area terrain at all costs (and under a ruin if you can do it). Ablative wounds in the form of Tyranid Primes is also worth considering. He can take anything that isn’t S10 and Regeneration is a cheap and worthwhile upgrade on this model. He is also a cc powerhouse which alone won’t make a difference to a dedicated assault unit, but to a whittled down one can be the final touch.

In fact Genestealers, Hive Guard and Tervigons make an extremely potent combination. The Hive Guard go after Transports early while the Genestealers munch the contents and stop the enemy from being too bold and pushing towards you. Tervigons boost the survivability of whatever needs it most. After that you can go nuts. Consider a pair of Trygons for some even more pressure following the initial wave of stealers (their I is high enough to not worry about JotWW and take a lot of pressure off the Hive Guard and Tervigons…no-one wants a Trygon rampaging through their lines). Again Genestealers help here by keeping certain units away from the Trygon until they hit their primary foe (the Prime upgrade may be worth it though I haven't playtested myself...Force weapon wielding GK's have a much tougher time passing the test on 3D6). There are a lot of options to play with in this regard, but so long as you take units that can apply pressure quickly and are reasonably survivable you can be sure they achieve something, even if it is just drawing fire.

Looking at a solid base for this kind of foot slogging list would therefore be:

3 units of 2 Hive Guard
2 Tervigons (with Catalyst, Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs)
2 units of 20 Genestealers
2 units of 10 Termagants

Now these will set you back a pretty penny (1350pts) but still leave room in larger games for other choices besides your basic HQ. If you aren’t too worried about Landraiders and the like then you can focus on units that can hurt transports as well the stuff inside them. I already mentioned Trygons, but other choices are viable.

Looking at HQ choices a Tyrant of any variety can be a good thing. They are expensive though and don’t have great survivability if not accompanied by Tyrant Guard so be prepared for the expense. The Swarmlord has some synergy with the Stealers but not as much as outflanking ones, though that can be overlooked. Throwing Preferred Enemy onto a unit of 20 FnP and Poison stealers leave nothing but casualties behind them. Again he’s expensive but you get a lot of synergy and he gives your gunline/support elements some crucial counterattack since he’s just as slow as them.

The cheapest option would be a Prime. As mentioned previously the ablative wounds to Hive guard can make a difference and also performs a counterattack role. Though not as impressive as the Swarmlord in this regard he is a heck of a lot cheaper thus freeing up more points elsewhere.

In a list such as the above I would avoid other Elite slot choices. Zoanthropes have been made extremely unreliable. Against DE they are completely unnecessary since nothing is above AV11, against GK’s Dreadnaughts provide great psychic defense, and SW have plenty of missiles to down the brood in a single volley, as well as running Rune Priests to ruin their day. They still work against IG though they do have the sheer number of shots as well as access to multiple blasts that can force saves and ID you in 1 go. In this case the survivability just isn’t there.

I’m a sucker for Ymgarls but unfortunately they don’t fit into this style of list. You already have enough stealers without having to add more. They also take away from your Hive Guard which is something I don’t recommend.

If looking at Fast Attack slots Raveners would be a possibility. The speed with which they approach is not to be underestimated and while they lack some real attack power, the sheer number of attacks they put out is daunting. Target selection for them is tough since S8 in close combat really does ruin their day, but if they are drawing S8 fire then they are serving a purpose.

Gargoyles look great on paper but are also just as survivable as said paper. Giving these guys FnP only marginally improves their survivability and since they only have 1 attack base their damage output is neglible. They do provide cover saves but that’s something that is already taken care of with proper use of gaunts, area terrain and Hive Guard. Everything gives everything else a cover save. My opinion: Save your points.

And Finally onto some Heavy Support options. I don’t feel in this kind of list Carnifexes would work. In larger points games you can get 2 Primes and 2 fexes to create a really survivable unit, they are going to be too slow to support the faster elements early to mid game.

Trygons would work. Getting a few more threats up the table quickly which have 6 wounds each help. Now against DE they are really nothing other than suicide units, but the DE player can’t just ignore them. They will hit the lines too fast. All they do is give your Hive guard more time to take out the transports, but it’s a sacrifice worth making in my opinion. Against GK’s there is a real chance that force weapons will deal with them before they have a chance to make much of an impact which is why the prime upgrade may be worthwhile. Something that needs to be playtested.

A T-fex is also an option. There seems to be a lot of hate on the web for this guy and I can understand that sentiment. He’s expensive and unreliable. At the same time though he has some serious anti-infantry weapons at his disposal once he does get close. He is practically immune to the mass of missiles that will be headed his way (though Dark Lances will still hurt…just as well he is not so important against DE) and can provide cover with his bulk to Tervigons hiding behind him. In my mind this guy isn’t as versatile as the Trygon but can fulfill a certain battlefield role.

Moving away from this kind of list in the current meta is in my opinion a challenging proposition. There are of course lots of variations available for testing and while I won’t go into them here (there are just too many) I will look at some of the benefits of a 1850pt list below:

Tyranid Prime
Lashwhip and Bonesword
Adrenal Glands
Renegeration
Rending Claws (replacing the Devourer)

2x Hive Guard
2x Hive Guard
2x Hive Guard

20x Genestealers
20x Genestealers

Tervigon
Adrenal Glands
Toxin Sacs
Catalyst

Tervigon
Adrenal Glands
Toxin Sacs
Catalyst

10x gaunts
10x gaunts

6x Raveners
Rending Claws

5x Raveners
Rending Claws

VS Mech DE
In this list you have speed on your side as well as some units (Raveners) to draw the S8 lances. This will keep the Hive guard alive longer. Another bonus is that even if the Raveners get taken out the Genestealers are still more than capable of fulfilling their role.

VS SW
Again speed is on your side. You are able to apply early pressure to firebase units (think longfangs) with the stealers and Raveners come close behind as follow up units. Hive Guard aren’t as essential, though they will provide pressure on transports trying to sneak their way to your objective.

VS Crowe GK
Against Crowe Purifiers with Dreadnaught support the Genestealers should make short work of the Purifiers (provided they get FnP on before Cleansing Flame goes off). The Dreads can be tied up and potentially taken out by the Raveners or Hive Guard.

VS Paladin GK
This should pose even less of a problem. At 1850pts the model count will be extremely small so consider just using your mobility to gang up on any deathstars out there. 40 Stealers will do a number on the Paladins. Knocking off a few models here and there with Hive Guard will also help.

VS Coteaz Henchmen GK
This is also a fairly balanced matchup though Coteaz will slow you down some with his Sanctuary power. Even so once you do hit combat Henchmen don’t really stand up to Stealers (except possibly DCA combined with Crusaders…make sure they die early). You should have the necessary numbers to simply overwhelm them.

Anyway, these are really just my thoughts on the matter and I hope they can be of use to someone other than just myself.

I have to agree with your Genestealer synopsis. When I use my bugs I always start with nothing on the board. My two squads of 15 Stealers always make their points back. I throw toxin sacs on them just for the sake of getting more rending wounds when I attack.

Any Nid army hoping to compete has to make use of Hive Guard and Tervigons (JotWW be dammed). I think you make solid points about Genestealers, however they are very expensive. Putting them too far forward takes away getting FNP. Marching them up the field takes time. It's a catch-22. Sadly, Nids have no real answer to Venom or Razorspam; it will always be an uphill climb. I like the writeup though

Updated.

I think that 2 broods of stealers is getting almost compulsory now. Toxin sacs are a must for me, even if that means 1 or 2 less on the board.

As you need to have a termagant brood to make a tervigon a troop, my current thinking is why not make them useful. Give them devourers and sometimes even a mycetic spore.
15 devourer gants kick out 45 shots with a range of 18". If you can say pop a DE transport with some S6/S8 shooting then this should clear the contents up.

I am working on speed for my list now, which means trying out a flyrant. A gargoyle screen is then compulsary. They don't need to do anything beyond soak up shots and give the flyrant a cover save until you can get him into CC. By running in T1, his 18" range in T2 should get him safely into combat. I also feel myself being drawn to a harpy for some reason but need to think on how I can get that to work. The T5 vs other MCs T6 is less of an issue when looking at S8 or above or poisoned weapons ...

Dakka fexes are always something to consider. Those 12 S6 shots are great at shredding DE vehicles and transports generally. Try 3 of them with 3 broods of hive guard and if you can get them into midfield intact they should really start shredding mech. The problem is getting them into range intact as they are slow and have 18"/24" range respectively.

ruminator wrote:I think that 2 broods of stealers is getting almost compulsory now. Toxin sacs are a must for me, even if that means 1 or 2 less on the board.

If you take Toxin Sacs, you get 1 fewer Genestealer for every 5. So 2 less if you're taking only 10.

Great tactica, Lukus. Thanks for sharing.

3 things you need to be aware of when playing a genestealer-heavy tyranid army:


1) Genestealers need support. They cannot do it be themselves. FNP from tervigons is a necessity for them to survive small-arms fire. FNP and cover makes them really resilient. Then they also need AT other than assault to help them take out transports. While rending in numbers can get the job done against most vehicles, it is not an efficient way for them to deal with mech and leaves them vulnerable to return fire. Hive guard fire, zoanthropes, and to a lesser degree, TMC tl-devourers, are a necessity to crack open these transports. Of the 3, hive guards are the most reliable in dealing with the majority of transports out there. Ergo, a foundation of tervigons, hive guards and genestealers makes for a solid tyranid core.


2) To be or not to be....Toxin Sacs. Are they worth it on your genestealers, or is it better to just get more genestealers? Let's take as an example, 14 toxin stealers vs 17 regular stealers (both come out to be 238 pts exactly).


On the charge against other T4, 3+ MEQ opponents:

17 Regular genestealers: 51 attacks, 34 hits, 17 wounds (of which 3 is rending), 4.7 failed saves = 8 marines dead.

14 Toxin genestealers: 42 attacks, 28 hits, 14 wounds + 7 more due to re-rolls = 21 wounds (3.5 rends), 5.7 failed saves = 9 marines dead.


Now against T3, 5+ GEG opponents:

17 Regular genestealers: 51 attacks, 34 hits, 23 wounds (of which 4 is rending), 12.7 failed saves = 17 guardsmen dead.

14 Toxin genestealers: 42 attacks, 28 hits, 14 wounds + 7 more due to re-rolls = 21 wounds (3.5 rends), 11.7 failed saves = 15 guardsmen dead.


And finally, against T5+ 3+ opponents (Thunderwolf, Plaguemarines, most monstrous creatures, not including FNP or Invuln saves):

17 Regular genestealers: 51 attacks, 34 hits, 11 wounds (2 rends) vs T5 or 6 wounds (1 rend) vs T6, 3.1 or 1.7 failed saves = 5 wounds (vs T5) or 3 wounds (vs T6)

14 Toxin genestealers: 42 attacks, 28 hits, 14 wounds (2 rends), 4 failed saves = 6 wounds vs T5 or T6


It is fairly close. Toxin stealers are more efficient against T4 or tougher opponents. Regular stealers are better against guardsmen-type infantry. However, regular stealers are slightly more resilient due to the 3 extra bodies and do better against transports once again due to the extra bodies.

So really, it will depend on your local meta. If you tend to play more mechanized opponents or armies with a lot of GEG's (guard-equivalents), it's better to go with regular stealers. However, if you play more against MEQ's and/or monstrous creatures, toxin stealers may be the way to go for you.


3) Genestealers may be a little too fast for their own good. Because of infiltrating or outflanking, or just because they have fleet, genestealers have a tendency to outpace their support units. That means when they assault, they may be out of range of tyranids buffs such as Synapse, FNP, preferred enemy from Old Adversary, Shadows in the Warp protection or even cover if they have to go through difficult terrain. These are not situations you want your genestealers to be in. What can/should you do?

- You have to be aware of where you infiltrate. You want to infiltrate into or behind cover (and hopefully out of LOS). At the same time, you really don't want to infiltrate too far away from the core of your army. Doing so is a big risk to the survivability of your stealer unit.

- You want to leave a trailing stealer (or several). Just far enough so that you can be the recipient of FNP and perhaps even Synapse or Old Adversary. Unfortunately, it may be a little harder to get Shadows protection against the Grey Knights. You may have to lag 2 or even 3 stealers behind but usually the benefits are well worth it. Remember, when you assault with your stealers, they will be moving 6" towards combat so you have to take that into consideration when trailing them.

Here's a simplified example of how to trail a genestealer (G = genestealer, T = tervigon):

Non-trailing brood of 15 genestealers. This infiltrating brood is out of range of the tervigon's FNP and Synapse.

GGGGG_________________T
GGGGG
GGGGG


Trailing genestealer brood. Although this brood is infiltrating, it leaves enough stealers trailing so that it can still benefit from Synapse and receive the tervigon's FNP.

GGGGG_G_G_G_G________T
GGG
GGG




Coming up next, how I run genestealers in my Tyranid army.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just a few notes regarding tyranid matchups.

Lukus83 wrote:
VS Mech DE
In this list you have speed on your side as well as some units (Raveners) to draw the S8 lances. This will keep the Hive guard alive longer. Another bonus is that even if the Raveners get taken out the Genestealers are still more than capable of fulfilling their role.

This is one of the harder matchups for tyrands, especially if going up against venom-spam DE. While it is not unwinnable, nids will struggle against DE. It's just a scissors-vs-paper matchup.

VS SW
Again speed is on your side. You are able to apply early pressure to firebase units (think longfangs) with the stealers and Raveners come close behind as follow up units. Hive Guard aren’t as essential, though they will provide pressure on transports trying to sneak their way to your objective.

Another tough matchup, especially if you're going up against long fang-spam, rune priest-spam, thunderwolf cavalry or any combination of the 3. A genestealer nid army such as the example provided by the OP will fare better against them than a conventional tyranid army. However, it will still be a tough fight. It is armies like these where you may want to consider adding ymgarls to your all-comer's tyranid army.

VS Crowe GK
Against Crowe Purifiers with Dreadnaught support the Genestealers should make short work of the Purifiers (provided they get FnP on before Cleansing Flame goes off). The Dreads can be tied up and potentially taken out by the Raveners or Hive Guard.

More important against GK's than any other army is the positioning of your tyranid army. Against the knights, you need the protection of Shadows, lest you want your genestealers BBQ'd by Cleansing Flame. Against them, you need to let your core catch up to your stealers a little. You also don't want to assault those raveners without the protection of Shadows lest they get force weapon'd to death. Against the knights, positioning and the movement of your army is key.

VS Paladin GK
This should pose even less of a problem. At 1850pts the model count will be extremely small so consider just using your mobility to gang up on any deathstars out there. 40 Stealers will do a number on the Paladins. Knocking off a few models here and there with Hive Guard will also help.

Actually, Draigowing matches up well against tyranids, especially if they have a librarian and Brotherhood Banner. Why? Can we say....Sanctuary? It is not fun to charge 40 stealers through dangerous terrain (losing about 7 while doing so) only to strike at I1 and lose 10-12 more stealers to the paladins before even attacking. They will lose combat and more genestealers to combat res (or maybe even get swept by the paladins if out of synapse range). And believe it or not, with a warding stave and some nemesis force swords, paladins can and will survive assault even by 40 genestealers (now 40 stealers with both preferred enemy and toxin sacs is another story, but with Sanctuary, paladins can survive them as well).

VS Coteaz Henchmen GK
This is also a fairly balanced matchup though Coteaz will slow you down some with his Sanctuary power. Even so once you do hit combat Henchmen don’t really stand up to Stealers (except possibly DCA combined with Crusaders…make sure they die early). You should have the necessary numbers to simply overwhelm them.

Genestealer nids will stand a better chance against this build because a) no Cleansing Flame and b) no paladins.

Thanks for the input jy2. I know the match-ups I listed aren't great aren't great, but I was merely hoping to focus on the good stuff. Regardless I can't wait to see what else you have to offer. Thanks again.

ruminator wrote:
Dakka fexes are always something to consider. Those 12 S6 shots are great at shredding DE vehicles and transports generally. Try 3 of them with 3 broods of hive guard and if you can get them into midfield intact they should really start shredding mech. The problem is getting them into range intact as they are slow and have 18"/24" range respectively.

Dakka-fexes work excellently with Onslaught tervigons. That extra D6" of movement before shooting really makes far more difference than you would think.

So I had a bit of a practise game today against a SW list. Now it wasn't totally tuned since the guy is still practising a new list, but he is a competent general and has played SW for a long time so he knows what he's doing. His list looked something like this:

Njal

2 units (9 and 10 man) of Grey Hunters. 10 man had 2x melta and a powerfist. 9 man had Mark of the Wulfen and a flamer. Both had Rhinos.

1 (5 man) unit of Grey Hunters in TL Lascannon Razorback

5 man T-Wolf unit
2 regular, 1 SS, 1 Thunder Hammer, 1 Melta bombs

1 man T-Wolf. TH/SS

3 6 man units of Long fangs (all have TL Lascannon Razorbacks)

My list looked like this:

Tyrant
Old Adversary
Lashwhip and Bonesword
Armoured Shell
2x Tyrant Guard with Lashwhips

2x Hive Guard
2x Hive Guard
2x Hive Guard

20x Stealers
Toxin Sacs

20x Stealers
Toxin Sacs

12x Gaunts

11x Gaunts

Tervigon
Adrenal Glands
Toxin Sacs
Catalyst

Tervigon
Adrenal Glands
Catalyst

So no Heavy suport for me. But the game plan worked. By taking a Tyrant and throwing everything forward I ensured that there was plenty of target saturation. Now this was by far the most important part and I think a lot of Nid lists should use this approach. By putting forward (but in cover) the Tyrant, the Hive Guard, the Tervigons, the Genestealers and the huge number of gaunts you really don't give your opponent any breathing room.

The Genestealers took the brunt of enemy shooting, but by utilizing the conga line approach and keeping maximum spacing I was able to keep 1 unit alive for a significant portion of the game (thanks to uninterrupted FnP) and the 2nd one then came in and finished off what was left (not everything, just the important objective camping units). Preferred Enemy, poison and FnP was an incredible combo on the stealers, allowing them to take on 10 man Grey hunters in cover and come through on top.

Several tactical errors were made on both sides (won't go into it here since this isn't a batrep), but I felt my list never lost momentum and keep applying pressure until the SW's folded. Against a more numerous foe perhaps this wouldn't have been the case.

My next test game will probably be against Mech DE or WWP DE. Either way will be adding my thoughts here.

Your list is pretty close to what I field on a regular basis. I've started to use gargoyles as an extra layer of mobile protection and cover, letting me keep the gants for late game. Also for awhile I stopped using the tyrant but I think he's pretty worthwhile more and more of late. Old advesary has caused me to lose too many games in the mirror match to not have a good deal of respect for it.

Also, for the larger squads being backed by tervigons, I have been forgoing the toxin sacs. Its a worthwhile uprade but its costly on such big units and with their lightning rod status you will shed bodies and attacks regardless of upgrades. I basically like the extra bodies going without the sacs provides (eg you could afford some gargoyles or a small rav unit if you dropped the sacs).

Smaller squads that aren't getting catalyst support, I do tend to add the sacs. You aboslutely need that extra edge without the bodies and FnP.

My next step has been to aquire some raveners, so I can put more quality cc pressure on the opponent then just the two stealer squads and whatever gant spawnings I get off.

As an ork player who plays nids quite often I cna say one thing that would be really nice is if Death or glory didn't effect monstrous creatures. my deffrollas do more damage than they probably should be able to vs monstrous creatures just becasue its had to risk losting the unit to the single swing... my deffrollas are littlerally my MVP's vs monstrous creatures

Your list is pretty close to what I field on a regular basis. I've started to use gargoyles as an extra layer of mobile protection and cover, letting me keep the gants for late game. Also for awhile I stopped using the tyrant but I think he's pretty worthwhile more and more of late. Old advesary has caused me to lose too many games in the mirror match to not have a good deal of respect for it.

Also, for the larger squads being backed by tervigons, I have been forgoing the toxin sacs. Its a worthwhile uprade but its costly on such big units and with their lightning rod status you will shed bodies and attacks regardless of upgrades. I basically like the extra bodies going without the sacs provides (eg you could afford some gargoyles or a small rav unit if you dropped the sacs).

Smaller squads that aren't getting catalyst support, I do tend to add the sacs. You aboslutely need that extra edge without the bodies and FnP.

My next step has been to aquire some raveners, so I can put more quality cc pressure on the opponent then just the two stealer squads and whatever gant spawnings I get off.

I have been out of the Nid arena for a while so a lot of recent experience has been through mathhammer and throwing dice down on a desk. I feel you are right that stealers are going to take the hits, but to me that makes it even more imperative to have the sacs on them. By the time they hit the enemy they absolutely will not be a full 20 bug brood. Old Adversary was a huge bonus and any opponent who thinks diffferently...well they will learn to respect it.

I will try losing the sacs for more bodies approach, but not until I have completed games against the current dominating armies in our local meta. I need to see what this list is capable of and what it struggles with the most. SW will most likely be in for a re-match in the near future since my opponents list hasn't been tweaked yet. Any more ideas are welcome.

I definitely prefer toxin on the stealer units, regardless of the size.

The one thing I disagree on with this article is the necessity of Tyrannofexen; I would definitely drop the Raveners and shoehorn them in. Really, against Dark Eldar (pretty much an auto-lose matchup) we definitely need something with ranged AT that can actually get through night shields.

Despite playing them, I really think the existence of Dark Eldar permanently bans Tyranids from ever being plausibly competitive. As an example, I ask how would you beat the following with Tyranids;

HQ -
Haemonculus, liquifier gun, venom blade
Elites -
3x Trueborn, 3x blasters
Venom with dual splinter cannons, night shields
3x Trueborn, 3x blasters
Venom with dual splinter cannons, night shields
3x Trueborn, 3x blasters
Venom with dual splinter cannons, night shields

Troops -
5 Kabalite Warriors, blaster
Venom with dual splinter cannons, night shields
5 Kabalite Warriors, blaster
Venom with dual splinter cannons, night shields
5 Kabalite Warriors, blaster
Venom with dual splinter cannons, night shields
5 Kabalite Warriors, blaster
Venom with dual splinter cannons, night shields
5 Kabalite Warriors, blaster
Venom with dual splinter cannons, night shields

Fast Attack -
3 Beastmasters, 10 Khymerae, 2 Razorwing

Heavy Support -
Ravager, three dark lances, night shields, flickerfield
Razorwing, two dark lances, splinter cannon, 4x monoscythe missiles, night shields.
Razorwing, two dark lances, splinter cannon, 4x monoscythe missiles, night shields.

I honestly don't think there's Nid list in existence capable of downing this. For example, against your list. For argument's sake, let's presume the Dark Eldar go first in a pitched battle setup. The dark eldar player divides his forces into two blobs in corners of the board, and will redeploy out of Stealer/HG range, foddering the stealers a single transport a turn if necessary (blocking). As the DE player, I'm not worried about KP as I'm confident of a tabling.

1. If the dark eldar go first, both Tervis die turn one (8 Venoms + Ravager if necessary, maybe even disembark some expendable warriors cover makes no difference against poison) and the stealers take a crapton of casualties from the Razorwing. To be precise; 8 S6 AP5 large blast missiles, four dark lances and 12 poisoned shots directed against them. The Hive Guard get ignored, because 18" range with impaler cannons is terrible. Stealers will be out of assault this turn, so the Tyranids won't be doing much with the HQ out of range.

2. Next turn, the stealers take all of the firepower of 20 Rapid firing warriors, 14 blasters and 8 venoms (this will wipe a whole unit), followed up by a khymerae assault (against the unit weakened by the Razorwing). The Razorwing and Ravager ping off some shots at the Tyrant, probably killing a guard. This is all without FNP, as the Tervis are busy being dead. Hive guard are still ignored, because 18" range is still bad/thanks night shields. Hive Tyrant advances... slowly.
3. The Hive Tyrant takes 14 Lances to the face and dies. The hive guard take everything else to the face and die, maybe a couple survive.
4. The remaining hive guard might kill a vehicle, or they might fail IB and shoot at beasts or warriors.
5. They die, because everything shoots them.

Against the Ravener list, it gets even worse. The Tervis and Prime die, and no synapse is bad news as things run away...

As you may have noticed, I'm quite pessimistic about the gribbly chances in this matchup. As I play both armies, I've gone over this dozens of times, but it always results in a 'Nid tabling. If you can, please help, if you can't... we can all be depressed together?

Very good article and a must read for aspiring players. This is the information all competitive nid players have working with. My only disagreements are in regards to Zoeys and Carnis.

I take Zoeys for 2 reasons. AV14 and long fangs. It can be very difficult to get cover for tervis while crossing the board. Zoanthropes don't need cover. I often use them to absorb a lot of firepower to get my Tervigons upfield unmolested. Psychic hoods and rune staves do not shut them down as badly as the internet seems to make it out to be. You will on average lose 1, maybe 2 of the shots. It typically doesn't take more than 1-2 lances to get the job done.

A dakkafex with lash whip prime adds a very hard hitting second wave to the genestealer horde, vehicle suppression, counter assault, a moderately priced deathstar (~300), anti-infantry, etc. The unit is really extremely well rounded, gets cover saves easily because of the prime and the availability of gaunts, and like Zoeys will eat tons of shooting the Tervigons normally must endure. It takes 6 wounds before you have to lose anything, and that should be with cover saves.

As for the matchups;

As someone who plays both DE and Tyranids, I'll say that even with an optimal anti-DE build, I wouldn't give the tyranid player more than a 30% chance of victory.

Playing my DE (2 archons w/ incubi/bloodbrides, 1 trueborn blaster unit, 5 warrior blaster units, 6 venoms 2 raiders 3 ravagers) against drop pod Tyranids, I had by far the toughest matchup I could've imagined with bugs.

It ended with me tabling him, but something very unexpected was the effectiveness of the drop pods themselves, combined with 2 HVC tyrants and large warrior broods with deathspitters.

As the bug player, even getting first turn and landing a first turn assault on something with your 20 man genestealer unit isn't going to seal the deal. Generally speaking, your best bet may actually be to sit tight in cover, hide your MCs and attempt to force them to come to you. Chasing DE around the board is going to result in a lot of buttpain. The biggest factor will be terrain, as in, is t here a solid BLOS piece in the center of the map HG can hide behind and cover a lot of space without risking getting obliterated.

SW is hardest when dealing with JOTWW, but beyond that the army doesn't provide any particular threats we don't meet elsewhere. Counter-attacking GH in cover can cause some casualties, but 5+/4+ really helps and big broods can deal with it. 15 frag templates a turn are negated by cover/fnp. It's a hard matchup, SW have every strength and no real exploitable weakness.

BA can be the easiest or the most difficult. The plethora of dreads and fast vehicles is the most challenging aspect of BA. Their infantry are not overwhelming in most aspects for genestealer/gaunt swarms, and mephiston dies to poison/rending like a punk. I have a lot of trouble dealing with fast moving furiousos, as well as razorback walls that can move and shoot, winning the attrition war.

GK I've had good experiences with. Many of the GK strengths are wasted on tyranids, but definitely not vice versa. With low model count armies, GK suffer heavily from weight of numbers and proper application of force can do serious damage. The key is a hyper-aggressive playstyle to get SITW in the game and to throw EVERYTHING you can at them at once, because almost any losses you suffer will be more manageable than theirs. Force weapons hurt Raveners and Trygons the worst, the biggest adaptation is to use Trygon primes and to throw raveners at units without halberds, or as a counter assault unit with SITW coverage.

Spot on with your analysis. I run a very similar list though I've got a few thoughts for you:

Run a tervigon as an HQ. I don't think the prime really adds much to your list, and running the tervigon in the HQ slot frees up 2 troops selections. Personally I run 3 squads of 15 stealers with TS (it fits my play style and the local meta)

I personally love the gargoyles. they've worked really well for me as a single squad of 26. They have the speed to be out of everythings way, they provide cover to 90% of my army and with FNP on the first turn they tend to be a problem my opponent has to deal with.
I typically either run them with only TS or naked. I haven't found both upgrades to be that useful even though it's super cheap.

GK and DE made us put the big bugs on the shelves, but now the hordes of small bugs make them regret paying extra for upgrades that are completely wasted on us

For clarification I don't feel Zoanthropes are terrible, just that they wouldn't be so necessary in the type of list I'm testing. I think that to make nids competitive you have to move away from AV14 tank-busting power and just use the cheaper options available to us to help deliver more punch in the Troops slots and pray for a non Landraider heavy matchup.

I'm going to be sticking with the Tyrant as HQ for a while as long as he performs. He gets cover saves easily during the start of the game (thanks to the Guard) and he is another big threat that not only provides a distraction from Hive Guard and Tervigons, but is also capable of giving the Genestealers a nice buff with proper deployment and movement.

Ok, this is how I use genestealers in my all-comer's 2K list. BTW, I run a somewhat unconventional tyranid list....I run a shooty tyranid army. The role of the genestealers, as they are with my Swarmlord, is counter-assault and to protect my more vulnerable, shooty units. But that doesn't mean that I play them passively. No, I play my shooty nids aggressively, advancing and shooting.


Swarmlord
2x Tyrant Guards w/Lash Whips
2x3 Hive Guards
2x Hive Guards
2x Tervigons - Catalyst, Cluster Spines, Toxin Sacs
2x10 Termagants
13x Genestealers
2x3 Biovores
Tyrannofex - Cluster Spines, Dessicator Larvae, Rupture Cannon


My army is just as comfortable shooting you as it is in assaulting you. Hive guards and t-fex opens up tanks. Biovores take care of the disembarked passengers. 6 large blasts will hurt, and with 48" range that doesn't require LOS, I will hurt long fangs, MSU squads and non-terminator infantry a plenty. Units with 4+ armor not in area terrain will get decimated by those barrages. If you want to assault me, you need to get through the Swarmlord and my Preferred Enemy genestealers, a task not many armies would like to do. Against a more assaulty army, I screen out my units with termagants and try to shoot them some more before the inevitable clash.

The genestealers are not only for counter-assault, but I can play them aggressively as well. I can infiltrate them or outflank them depending on what type of army I face. Thanks to the Swarmlord, I get +1 to my reserve rolls and can re-roll my outflanking. That means I have an 8/9 chance of coming in from the table edge I want.

What's the best part of my shooty army? I don't need to see you to kill you. Almost all my shooty units - the hive guards and biovores - don't need LOS. I'm just as happy camping behind a large LOS-blocking terrain as I am advancing aggressively towards the enemy.

This is actually a very balanced tyranid army. Though it is slow, I can handle both the Shooting Phase and the Assault Phase pretty well. For needed mobility, I would have to infiltrate or outflank my stealers. Though I haven't played my nids much recently due to the new grey knights, I've had a modicum of success with them. I've beaten a raider-spam DE army, though I've yet to face venom-spam DE (it'll probably hurt unless we have some LOS-blocking terrain near the center). I've tabled a dual-nob biker ork army. I've actually beaten an assault terminator deathwing army. Finally, I managed to tie for 1st at a 1500 tournament with a scaled-down version of my shooty nids. Who did I tie with? Mechguards with 3 vendettas, 2 manticores and a bunch of plasma/melta-vets in chimeras. He destroyed everyone he played against except for my nids, who managed a tie against his army (we both ended up 3 wins and 1 draw).

OP: Cam you overwhelm an opponent with TMC (i.e T6 multi-wound) or do you need the obligatory genestealers?

Nobody is talking about Hormagaunts! Poisoned, furious-charging hormagaunts cost 7 points less per model and fleet 3d6. They lack infiltrate (but can outflank if a tyrant lets them via hive commander) and rending, but vs infantry and AV10 I've found them always acceptable on the table. In fact the sheer number of attacks + re-rolls they get without any additional help from old adversary has had me charge them into assault terminators and come out ahead (after a few rounds of attrition).

I just wanted to throw that out there, a brood of 15 or 20 beefed up hormagaunts is a small investment for a nice punch in close combat.

tetrisphreak wrote:Nobody is talking about Hormagaunts! Poisoned, furious-charging hormagaunts cost 7 points less per model and fleet 3d6. They lack infiltrate (but can outflank if a tyrant lets them via hive commander) and rending, but vs infantry and AV10 I've found them always acceptable on the table. In fact the sheer number of attacks + re-rolls they get without any additional help from old adversary has had me charge them into assault terminators and come out ahead (after a few rounds of attrition).

I just wanted to throw that out there, a brood of 15 or 20 beefed up hormagaunts is a small investment for a nice punch in close combat.

Yeah, I run 21 Hormagaunts with toxin sacs and adrenal glands, and they're always a huge distraction - they should always get a charge in by Turn 2, but they tend to get cut off and killed afterwards. However, they provide an unavoidable distraction for 210pts and will either take the heat off the rest of my army, or rip an expensive unit to shreds.

tetrisphreak wrote:Nobody is talking about Hormagaunts! Poisoned, furious-charging hormagaunts cost 7 points less per model and fleet 3d6. They lack infiltrate (but can outflank if a tyrant lets them via hive commander) and rending, but vs infantry and AV10 I've found them always acceptable on the table. In fact the sheer number of attacks + re-rolls they get without any additional help from old adversary has had me charge them into assault terminators and come out ahead (after a few rounds of attrition).

I just wanted to throw that out there, a brood of 15 or 20 beefed up hormagaunts is a small investment for a nice punch in close combat.

Fair point but you need to look at them objectively, not simply listing the fact that they have sytals whilst missing the difference between WS3 & 6.

So 100 WS6 attacks vs. WS5 or lower = 66.8 hits. 100 WS3 hits with sytals = 58.35. Granted, sytals become much better vs. vehicles whilst overall WS becomes moot.

15 bare stealers vs. 21 beefed up hormagants.. Kills 8.34 MEQ's vs 9.1 MEQ's. 1.2 Pens against a cruising speed vehicle for stealers vs. 2 glances for gants. 3.75 pens against a combat speed vehicle for stealers vs. 6 glances for gants. 15 GEQ kills for stealers vs. 21.2 GEQ kills for gants.

A generalized analysis. I'd prefer 3.75 pens to 6 glances and vs. infantry, Stealers are deadly and the gants are simply more deadly. But the stealers are deadly enough. So what am I left with; T3 vs. T4, 21 wounds vs. 15 wounds, 3D6 fleet vs. fleet + infiltrate/outflank annd finally Feed LD6 vs. Fearless LD10. So really its these last points from which you'd draw your preference.

I'd go with stealers every time; In both instances you would disable a vehicle easily enough but only the stealers are likely to destroy a vehicle - something in 5th Edition Nids have a hard enough time of as it is.

Razerous wrote:OP: Cam you overwhelm an opponent with TMC (i.e T6 multi-wound) or do you need the obligatory genestealers?

Though I am not the OP, I will try to answer this one for you.

Are you talking about T6-spam or just pure Nidzilla? T6-spam can work, but we're not just talking about monstrous creatures here. You've got to include hive guards in this type of army as well as your obligatory screening termagants. Now if you're talking about pure nidzilla (i.e. mainly T6 monstrous creatures with just a few gants for objectives), then it depends.

Pure nidzilla is no longer a viable, competitive tyranid build. It is a relic of a 4th edition power build that used to be very dominant. Unfortunately, all the newer armies can now easily deal with it. Gone are the days of the undercosted T7 carnifexes with 5 wounds and 2+ saves getting up to 11 attacks on the charge. Gone are the days of the undercosted flyrant with the 2+ save. Gone are the days where 1 hit from a TMC causes 2 wounds.

Modern Nidzilla is not a balanced tyranid build and is susceptible to a variety of different 5th edition competitive builds - razorspam, missile-spam, Jaws of the World Wolf, venom-spam, darklight-spam, force weapon grey knights, force weapon knights with Banner, vendettas, veteran-IG, toxin nids, rending nids/daemons, daemons, MSU-mech, the list goes on. Yes, they can dominate some armies not prepared to deal with so many MC's, but against the more elitist, balanced armies, pure nidzilla will struggle.

That is not to say they need genestealers to compete, but they do need help from the gribblies in order to remain competitive and even against some builds, that may not be enough.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

tetrisphreak wrote:Nobody is talking about Hormagaunts! Poisoned, furious-charging hormagaunts cost 7 points less per model and fleet 3d6. They lack infiltrate (but can outflank if a tyrant lets them via hive commander) and rending, but vs infantry and AV10 I've found them always acceptable on the table. In fact the sheer number of attacks + re-rolls they get without any additional help from old adversary has had me charge them into assault terminators and come out ahead (after a few rounds of attrition).

I just wanted to throw that out there, a brood of 15 or 20 beefed up hormagaunts is a small investment for a nice punch in close combat.

One of the reasons why I prefer stealers over hormagants is because of their (the genestealer's) ability to infiltrate and/or outflank. That gives you added flexibility in terms of how you want to play the game. It also gives you a sense of unpredictability as your opponent cannot be sure how you will play them. This will then affect how they deploy and play. You can go so far as to say that you have limited control on how your opponent deploys just by having stealers in your army. That is often an undervalued and very subtle benefit that you get with genestealers onboard you army.

Big Change I see is that the increase in I6 (Force halberds, Wyches) makes putting Adrenals on 'Stealers actually a not half-bad idea.

Sure, Cleansing Flare will remove 'stealers fairly quick, but you can then lay out the hurt before your enemy hits back.

You are also a bit better vs. vehicles.

Razerous wrote:OP: Cam you overwhelm an opponent with TMC (i.e T6 multi-wound) or do you need the obligatory genestealers?

Well jy2 has done a great job of answering this for me. In a nutshell T6 spam just doesn't cut it in a competitive environment with a range of armies. It is especially weak against fast skimmer lists since you just can't catch the damn things. It wasn't so much of a problem before, but with the DE codex now out it's huge.

JY2 hit the nail on the head.

To throw my hat in on the Hormies/Stealer discussion... Infiltrate can allow regular first turn assaults, deployment in the opponent's deployment zone, and strong area denial for DoW. Rending makes Genestealers VERY threatening to Terminators and FNP marines, targets difficult for Hormies to crack and becoming very commonplace. Scytals are useful, but WS6 also reduces incoming damage, and hitting on 3s is still statistically better than 4s with a reroll on 1s.

Thanks for this thread found it very informative.

jy2 wrote:Are you talking about T6-spam or just pure Nidzilla? T6-spam can work, but we're not just talking about monstrous creatures here. You've got to include hive guards in this type of army as well as your obligatory screening termagants. Now if you're talking about pure nidzilla (i.e. mainly T6 monstrous creatures with just a few gants for objectives), then it depends.

Pure nidzilla is no longer a viable, competitive tyranid build. It is a relic of a 4th edition power build that used to be very dominant. Unfortunately, all the newer armies can now easily deal with it. Gone are the days of the undercosted T7 carnifexes with 5 wounds and 2+ saves getting up to 11 attacks on the charge. Gone are the days of the undercosted flyrant with the 2+ save. Gone are the days where 1 hit from a TMC causes 2 wounds.

Modern Nidzilla is not a balanced tyranid build and is susceptible to a variety of different 5th edition competitive builds - razorspam, missile-spam, Jaws of the World Wolf, venom-spam, darklight-spam, force weapon grey knights, force weapon knights with Banner, vendettas, veteran-IG, toxin nids, rending nids/daemons, daemons, MSU-mech, the list goes on. Yes, they can dominate some armies not prepared to deal with so many MC's, but against the more elitist, balanced armies, pure nidzilla will struggle.

That is not to say they need genestealers to compete, but they do need help from the gribblies in order to remain competitive and even against some builds, that may not be enough.

Okay, I hear you. And I do agree, I was including non MC T6 multi-wound models in that question (yes I maybe did say TMC).

So in 1500pts, how many wounds (at a rough guess) if you focused on T6, whilst staying competitive, would you say? 20, 30 40? If nidzilla (/t6 spam) doesn't work then the general consensus is that a good proportion of points needs to spent into single-wound models, most likely stealers.

I have a few thoughts on Tyranids and this discussion.

Hoppy's vs Genestealers

IMO hormagants were made to be taken with the Swarmlord.

Take them both. 18 poisoned hoppy's are 144pts. Very cheap. They are fantastic with the Swarmlord as he can give them furious charge and even make the enemy WS1. Those little bugs will drop TWC in assault and cause mayhem vs. anything outside a transport. What I also like about T3 hoppy's is that venom spam is inefficient against them. Don't get me wrong, the hoppy's will die to venoms, but wounding my hoppy's on a 4+ is like giving them T4 for free.

I'd still take stealers with the hoppy's and treat the hoppy's like cheaper versions of the stealers.


Bugs vs. DE

It's a bad matchup for e bugs, but I've seen worse. If there are some good LOS blocking terrain pieces on the board, then the bugs can deploy going second against DE. If no LOS blocking terrain, then you can still reserve the bugs and shorten the game. It is possible to give the DE only three turns of shooting before the game ends.



Bugs in the meta

I think the bugs can mess with the enemies deployment. Outflanking stealers force the enemy to deploy centrally and you can have the rest of the list designed to hit 24" in the center of the board where the enemy is most likely to deploy. Ymgarls, Trygons, and the Doom are all units that can hit an enemy castle and do serious damage.

A big problem with outflanking stealers (that I have come across against experienced players) is that your opponents can just castle. They block you from entering the rear and have sacrificial vehicles that moved over 6" at the front. Anything that comes in on the other side is wasted, anything that comes on to assault sacrificial transports is left bunched up for templates. I guess I'm just not a fan.

Now Hormagaunts and Stealers sounds interesting, especially with the Swamlord. Been a long time since I have used Hormagaunts, but will do so in the future to test out your theory.

And for Razerous, at 1850 I have 26 T6 wounds. I guess at 1500 maybe 30 would do be ok if you really focussed on it. Not sure how great it would be. If you playtest be sure to post your thoughts here. I'm actually quite impressed by the responses I'm getting, and appreciate all the input.