40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

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**Daedalus81**

Crimson wrote:

I am actually really surprised by this, it goes against the streamlining they otherwise seem to be doing.

How do you figure? You now don't need to keep track on whether or not you fired the combi...that's quite a bit easier now at least. The rule is otherwise straightforward.

**Imateria**

Cryonicleech wrote:
Y'know, I was more excited about stats no longer being capped at 10 for the sake of increased granularity before we saw stats.

It feels like only wounds aren't capped at 10, as we've yet to see anything else. (Outside of double strength modifiers, but that's on specific weapons.) I was kinda hoping that's how they'd buff vehicles, by giving them much higher toughnesses and adjusting the strength of anti-tank to keep up.

Sheesh that battle cannon looks really average. I really wish they had worked on a better mechanic than just "random d6 shots" to replace templates. Seeing it on a squad flamer was one thing, but then again, there might be something I'm missing.

Pretty happy with the twin-linked and combi-weapon changes though, and the melta stats. While the old twin-linked was a good mechanic, this new one is a bit more intuitive and hopefully makes the standard land raiders more effective.

We've already seen the Morkanaught has 18 wounds, the Leman Russ has 12 and they've hinted that a Knight will have more than 20.

**Youn**

If facing is missing off vehicles side sponsons on the Crusader and Stormraven will be pretty silly at effectively Rapid Fire 12 for both sponson together. I am going to need to have more dice as a Grey Knight player.

**Jambles**

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
Remember to ask in the facebook comments if battlecannons now really have to roll to-hit rolls with D6 "shots", it doesn't make any sense for a single, explosive projectile and it might be a typo. If enough of us ask it is likely we will get an answer.

They obviously did.

D6 shots represents the blast marker, so how many models it catches if in a unit or how 'blasted' the target was if solo model. It's just another way of doing it rather than using a template.

D3 damage for each 'shot' represents the impact on each model in a unit, or if the solo model is caught in an anti-tank blast, eh, it's gonna hurt.

Not hard to see the abstraction behind this weapon statline, to be honest. Just have to flip your mindset a little as the rules are different.

It just confuses the heck out of me when flamers are now D6 auto-hits weapons.

D6 shots that require to-hit rolls with BS3 /hit on 4+ is pretty awful even before factoring in movement (good luck when you hit on 5+ because you moved the tank unless some special rules take care of it). Even if you roll 6 shots that would statistically result in only 3 hits, which is just awful against any infantry that's not TEQ (and that's if rolling 6 on the number of shots roll, mind, good luck killing anything at all if you roll a 1 or 2).

Anecdotal reply: I play against Imperial Guard a lot. Very, very seldom did I see more than four or five infantry models end up under the large blast template when my opponent fired battle cannons, after rolling for hit and scatter. It missed units entirely far more often than it hit. When he did bring Battle Cannon Leman Russes at all, my opponent almost exclusively used them for anti-vehicle duty: they were never very good at killing large units. At a glance, the weapon now looks to be more reliable at hitting single targets, and is slightly more consistent against multiple targets. Wasn't MEQ what the battle cannon was made for shooting at, anyways?

**Deadshot**

oni wrote:
The battle cannon is definitely changing its role to anti-elite & anti-single model - which isn't bad. I can get behind this.

I think the new rules make it better. While you're not guaranteed to hit your target; you are guaranteed to not scatter onto your own units. For this reason alone I think the new rules are better.

I agree with this and makes it more appealling and fluff in my eyes. It had enough firepower to total a squad of tacticals and characters before, but wasn't really used for such, as well as wound most MCs fairly easily. I do like the idea of Leman Russ firing a shell at point blank down a Carnifex's throat.

**Ragnar Blackmane**

theocracity wrote:
oni wrote:
The battle cannon is definitely changing its role to anti-elite & anti-single model - which isn't bad. I can get behind this.

I think the new rules make it better. While you're not guaranteed to hit your target; you are guaranteed to not scatter onto your own units. For this reason alone I think the new rules are better.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Leman Russes are going to be gaining firepower with the ability to split-fire its sponsons and hull weapon at the same time it's firing its cannon. I don't think that they're going to be lacking in damage dealt, even if their cannon doesn't roll great hits.

I don't doubt that, what I doubt is the viability of the battlecannon variant.

I mean D6 shots, hit on 4+ (or worse if moving and no special rule like 5th Ed. lumbering behemoth), wound on 3+ against T7 or 4+ against T8, a modified 5+ save if the target has a 3+ save in its profile (Vanilla Dreads, Lemon Russes), then pray for a good D3 roll on any shot who actually made it through all of this. Sounds extremely unreliable and like something the Exterminator or Vanquisher might do better, and the anti-infantry firepower of the battlecannon is greatly diminished (except against TEQ assuming you actually get enough hits which is not that likely either).

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
theocracity wrote:
oni wrote:
The battle cannon is definitely changing its role to anti-elite & anti-single model - which isn't bad. I can get behind this.

I think the new rules make it better. While you're not guaranteed to hit your target; you are guaranteed to not scatter onto your own units. For this reason alone I think the new rules are better.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Leman Russes are going to be gaining firepower with the ability to split-fire its sponsons and hull weapon at the same time it's firing its cannon. I don't think that they're going to be lacking in damage dealt, even if their cannon doesn't roll great hits.

I don't doubt that, what I doubt is the viability of the battlecannon variant.

I mean D6 shots, hit on 4+ (or worse if moving and no special rule like 5th Ed. lumbering behemoth), wound on 3+ against T7 or 4+ against T8, a modified 5+ save if the target has a 3+ save, then pray for a good D3 roll on any shot who actually made it through all of this. Sounds extremely unreliable and like something the Exterminator or Vanquisher might do better, and the anti-infantry firepower is greatly diminished (except against TEQ assuming you actually get enough hits which is not that likely either).

The only way this could get a bit better (maybe) is if you roll to hit once for the shell, so to say, and then roll the 1d6 hits...etc etc

**Crimson**

Daedalus81 wrote:

How do you figure? You now don't need to keep track on whether or not you fired the combi...that's quite a bit easier now at least. The rule is otherwise straightforward.

Removing the one-use restriction is not weird, but two fire modes, one of them with hit modifiers, is opposite of simple.

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

FireSkullz2 wrote:
Combi-Flamers will be ghastly now, auto D6 hits followed by a rapid fire bolter!?

Hm... drop podding a sternguard combi flamer unit sounds mighty, mighty interesting.

**En Excelsis**

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
theocracity wrote:
oni wrote:
The battle cannon is definitely changing its role to anti-elite & anti-single model - which isn't bad. I can get behind this.

I think the new rules make it better. While you're not guaranteed to hit your target; you are guaranteed to not scatter onto your own units. For this reason alone I think the new rules are better.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Leman Russes are going to be gaining firepower with the ability to split-fire its sponsons and hull weapon at the same time it's firing its cannon. I don't think that they're going to be lacking in damage dealt, even if their cannon doesn't roll great hits.

I don't doubt that, what I doubt is the viability of the battlecannon variant.

I mean D6 shots, hit on 4+ (or worse if moving and no special rule like 5th Ed. lumbering behemoth), wound on 3+ against T7 or 4+ against T8, a modified 5+ save if the target has a 3+ save in its profile (Vanilla Dreads, Lemon Russes), then pray for a good D3 roll on any shot who actually made it through all of this. Sounds extremely unreliable and like something the Exterminator or Vanquisher might do better, and the anti-infantry firepower of the battlecannon is greatly diminished (except against TEQ assuming you actually get enough hits which is not that likely either).

What I'd like to know is how weaker 'cannon' weapons will fair by comparison. Standard Autocannons are still just a Heavy 2 while TL will ensure all the Chaos variants will be Heavy 4. The Battle Cannon is heavy d6 with higher S and AP values. Since I can take a squad full of dudes with Autocannons what possible incentive do I have to pay for a Predator Destructor - It's Autocannon is radically devalued by this. Unless they make it something like a 'Destructor Pattern Autocannon' that has a separate profile, why would anyone take it?

**Deadshot**

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
theocracity wrote:
oni wrote:
The battle cannon is definitely changing its role to anti-elite & anti-single model - which isn't bad. I can get behind this.

I think the new rules make it better. While you're not guaranteed to hit your target; you are guaranteed to not scatter onto your own units. For this reason alone I think the new rules are better.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Leman Russes are going to be gaining firepower with the ability to split-fire its sponsons and hull weapon at the same time it's firing its cannon. I don't think that they're going to be lacking in damage dealt, even if their cannon doesn't roll great hits.

I don't doubt that, what I doubt is the viability of the battlecannon variant.

I mean D6 shots, hit on 4+ (or worse if moving and no special rule like 5th Ed. lumbering behemoth), wound on 3+ against T7 or 4+ against T8, a modified 5+ save if the target has a 3+ save, then pray for a good D3 roll on any shot who actually made it through all of this. Sounds extremely unreliable and like something the Exterminator or Vanquisher might do better, and the anti-infantry firepower is greatly diminished (except against TEQ assuming you actually get enough hits which is not that likely either).

The only way this could get a bit better (maybe) is if you roll to hit once for the shell, so to say, and then roll the 1d6 hits...etc etc

So, it would work like this vs Marines? Just to clarify

1 shot x BS3 = 0.5 hits. Assuming hit then

D6 hits averaging to 3.5

So 3.5 hits, wounds on a 2+* = 2.905 hits

Modified 5+ armour save = 1.937 unsaved wounds

Averaging out to 2 unsaved wound rolls, each of which averages rolls 4 on a D3, results in 2 results of 2.

The total result would be 4 wounds.

*Edit: Str 8 vs T4 is 2+ to wound, not 3+.

**Freddy Kruger**

People here need to remember 1 thing: everyone gets split fire.

Use the battle cannon against elite or single models/vehicle types, let the hull gun and side guns dakka the infantry. Also, no scatter means safer shots!

Also, I assume heavy D6 means you roll once to hit, and if it does, you roll a further D6 to determine how many hits in the explosion. And D3 means how badly the unit was hit by the explosion.

**torblind**

Are those 2 wounds on 2 models each or 4 wounds total against the unit?

**Jambles**

Freddy Kruger wrote:
People here need to remember 1 thing: everyone gets split fire.

Use the battle cannon against elite or single models/vehicle types, let the hull gun and side guns dakka the infantry. Also, no scatter means safer shots!

Also, I assume heavy D6 means you roll once to hit, and if it does, you roll a further D6 to determine how many hits in the explosion. And D3 means how badly the unit was hit by the explosion.

Why would you assume that? The article shows us how Heavy X works on the Heavy Bolter profile.

Heavy 6 means you roll 6 times to-hit.

Heavy d6 means you roll d6 times to-hit.

**Deadshot**

torblind wrote:
Are those 2 wounds on 2 models each or 4 wounds total against the unit?

Unfortunately unknown at this point. Could easily be either.

**torblind**

Freddy Kruger wrote:
People here need to remember 1 thing: everyone gets split fire.

Use the battle cannon against elite or single models/vehicle types, let the hull gun and side guns dakka the infantry. Also, no scatter means safer shots!

Also, I assume heavy D6 means you roll once to hit, and if it does, you roll a further D6 to determine how many hits in the explosion. And D3 means how badly the unit was hit by the explosion.

They said different models can shoot different targets, did they also say different weapons on one model can shoot different targets?

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

Freddy Kruger wrote:
People here need to remember 1 thing: everyone gets split fire.

Use the battle cannon against elite or single models/vehicle types, let the hull gun and side guns dakka the infantry. Also, no scatter means safer shots!

Also, I assume heavy D6 means you roll once to hit, and if it does, you roll a further D6 to determine how many hits in the explosion. And D3 means how badly the unit was hit by the explosion.

We're not questioning the Leman Russes - just the Battlecannon.

And I think that through the Battlecannon we can get a glimpse at the rest of the traditional "Big Guns", so to say.

For example, I can see the Vindicator's Demolisher Cannon being very similar to the Battle Cannon but at 24": something along the lines of S10 Heavy D6 D3 wounds

**JohnnyHell**

Jambles wrote:
Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
Remember to ask in the facebook comments if battlecannons now really have to roll to-hit rolls with D6 "shots", it doesn't make any sense for a single, explosive projectile and it might be a typo. If enough of us ask it is likely we will get an answer.

They obviously did.

D6 shots represents the blast marker, so how many models it catches if in a unit or how 'blasted' the target was if solo model. It's just another way of doing it rather than using a template.

D3 damage for each 'shot' represents the impact on each model in a unit, or if the solo model is caught in an anti-tank blast, eh, it's gonna hurt.

Not hard to see the abstraction behind this weapon statline, to be honest. Just have to flip your mindset a little as the rules are different.

It just confuses the heck out of me when flamers are now D6 auto-hits weapons.

D6 shots that require to-hit rolls with BS3 /hit on 4+ is pretty awful even before factoring in movement (good luck when you hit on 5+ because you moved the tank unless some special rules take care of it). Even if you roll 6 shots that would statistically result in only 3 hits, which is just awful against any infantry that's not TEQ (and that's if rolling 6 on the number of shots roll, mind, good luck killing anything at all if you roll a 1 or 2).
Anecdotal reply: I play against Imperial Guard a lot. Very, very seldom did I see more than four or five infantry models end up under the large blast template when my opponent fired battle cannons, after rolling for hit and scatter. It missed units entirely far more often than it hit. When he did bring Battle Cannon Leman Russes at all, my opponent almost exclusively used them for anti-vehicle duty: they were never very good at killing large units. At a glance, the weapon now looks to be more reliable at hitting single targets, and is slightly more consistent against multiple targets. Wasn't MEQ what the battle cannon was made for shooting at, anyways?

I'd agree. Looks potentially better than the 4/6 chance you scatter an average of 7" and miss everyone you aimed at.

**docdoom77**

Freddy Kruger wrote:
People here need to remember 1 thing: everyone gets split fire.

Use the battle cannon against elite or single models/vehicle types, let the hull gun and side guns dakka the infantry. Also, no scatter means safer shots!

Also, I assume heavy D6 means you roll once to hit, and if it does, you roll a further D6 to determine how many hits in the explosion. And D3 means how badly the unit was hit by the explosion.

Well, since it's Heavy d6, it pretty clearly means you roll a d6 and that's the number of dice you roll to hit. Just like Heavy3 means roll three times to hit, Heavy d6 means roll to hit d6 times.

**Leth**

Freddy Kruger wrote:
People here need to remember 1 thing: everyone gets split fire.

Use the battle cannon against elite or single models/vehicle types, let the hull gun and side guns dakka the infantry. Also, no scatter means safer shots!

Also, I assume heavy D6 means you roll once to hit, and if it does, you roll a further D6 to determine how many hits in the explosion. And D3 means how badly the unit was hit by the explosion.

Opposite So you roll a d6 to see how many shots, then roll to hit.

For all the people complaining that it is a nerf must not have played against people who spaced well. Most shots would get two maybe three hits depending on base size. So instead of the randomness being based on your opponents skill it is now something you can account for and is reliable from game to game

**theocracity**

Freddy Kruger wrote:
Also, I assume heavy D6 means you roll once to hit, and if it does, you roll a further D6 to determine how many hits in the explosion. And D3 means how badly the unit was hit by the explosion.

That's actually what I was assuming too, but rereading the profile I'm not so sure. It might depend on how the exact weapon rules are worded. From an Occam's Razor perspective, the profile of 'Heavy D6' has no difference between, say 'Heavy 3' - and we know that Heavy 3 has to roll three times to hit.

**MaxT**

It depends on the targets as well. A battle cannon is money vs multi wound low armour models for example. Not everything is a marine or a terminator

**JohnnyHell**

Jambles wrote:
Freddy Kruger wrote:
People here need to remember 1 thing: everyone gets split fire.

Use the battle cannon against elite or single models/vehicle types, let the hull gun and side guns dakka the infantry. Also, no scatter means safer shots!

Also, I assume heavy D6 means you roll once to hit, and if it does, you roll a further D6 to determine how many hits in the explosion. And D3 means how badly the unit was hit by the explosion.
Why would you assume that? The article shows us how Heavy X works on the Heavy Bolter profile.

Heavy 6 means you roll 6 times to-hit.

Heavy d6 means you roll d6 times to-hit.

This. D6 To Hit Rolls against the target model/unit.

**Jambles**

MaxT wrote:
It depends on the targets as well. A battle cannon is money vs multi wound low armour models for example. Not everything is a marine or a terminator

My nobs never liked battle cannons, and that clearly won't be changing any time soon...

**Crimson**

torblind wrote:
Are those 2 wounds on 2 models each or 4 wounds total against the unit?

Multi-wounds won't spill over. They have said this on FB several times.

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

theocracity wrote:
Freddy Kruger wrote:
Also, I assume heavy D6 means you roll once to hit, and if it does, you roll a further D6 to determine how many hits in the explosion. And D3 means how badly the unit was hit by the explosion.

That's actually what I was assuming too, but rereading the profile I'm not so sure. It might depend on how the exact weapon rules are worded. From an Occam's Razor perspective, the profile of 'Heavy D6' has no difference between, say 'Heavy 3' - and we know that Heavy 3 has to roll three times to hit.

Exactly, and it makes a bit of a difference in the gun's effectiveness.

**Shuma-Gorath**

gungo wrote:
In the old edition most weapons could hurt a leman russes av10-11 rear i see no issue. It was never a durable tank.
Furthermore Titans will still have regenerating power fields/void shields and IWND likely still exist making small arm fire immunity still existant.

I guess as an older gamer who began with 2nd edition I have nostalgia for a Leman Russ/Land Raider/Dreadnoughts being something a lasgun, boltgun or similar basic weapon couldn't do damage to at all.

In 2nd Leman russ rear armour was 17 while a lasgun had armour penetration of D6+3 so a maximum of 9 which meant you couldn't do anything to it. Which is why you either kept the infantry away from the tank, you would take a heavy weapons guyin the squad to look out for these big threats or equip specialist infantry to deal with tanks.

Maybe I was hoping to much for that kind of thing to return in 8th.

**Lithlandis Stormcrow**

Crimson wrote:
torblind wrote:
Are those 2 wounds on 2 models each or 4 wounds total against the unit?

Multi-wounds won't spill over. They have said this in FB several times.

So, to clarify: with the battlecannon, if you roll 18 wounds against a squad you can only kill 6 models tops?

**docdoom77**

Saw this gem on a facebook answer:

"Hey Samuel - we haven't seen the stats for a stormbolter yet! We reckon they will do oh, so many shots..."

Sounds like Storm bolters will retain Assault X. I'm thinking Assault 3 this time around. That's a nice balance to a TL Bolter's Rapid Fire 2.

**Crimson**

torblind wrote:

They said different models can shoot different targets, did they also say different weapons on one model can shoot different targets?

I think they said on FB that vehicles weapons can choose target independently.