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assuming obilterators remains the same oh lawd did they get fun

untit of three pumping out 6 meltagun shots, 6d6 flamer hits or 12 plasmagun shots.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Now I am curious about the odds of actually pulling out a 18 wound shot with an BS 3 againts, say... RG. (No I don't have a beef with him it's just about the biggest thing we have at the moment to mathhammer against)

Easy enough:
(1/2)(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = Hit*wound*save*3 damage roll = 2/27

Need to roll 6 shots once: 1/6
Need to do that roll 6 times:
(1/6)(2/27)^6=32/1162261467, or in other words ~0.0000028%

AKA don't count on it!

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

Yes there's a lot of boosts to shooting, but the thing I think people are missing is that with the adjustment to AP there are a lot more units that are going to stand up a lot better to shooting.

Not to mention To Hit and Save modifiers adding a lot of design space to make units more resilient when necessary.

Eyjio wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Now I am curious about the odds of actually pulling out a 18 wound shot with an BS 3 againts, say... RG. (No I don't have a beef with him it's just about the biggest thing we have at the moment to mathhammer against)

Easy enough:
(1/2)(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = Hit*wound*save*3 damage roll = 2/27

Need to roll 6 shots once: 1/6
Need to do that roll 6 times:
(1/6)(2/27)^6=32/1162261467, or in other words ~0.000000028%

AKA don't count on it!

Thank you good ser!

Damn was really hoping melta was 2D6 at half-range, but I guess that would be too overpowered. Mathhammer guys, is there an real benefit to 2D6-and-pick-the-highest?

Also I'm confused by the combi-weapon rules: Can you now fire both at the same time?

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mymearan wrote:

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
The Battle Cannon is going to be a lot better than before from what I'm seeing.

1) They can't scatter and miss completely (very common now against single targets like monstrous creatures)

Yeah, they can. There's no word on them auto hitting. You gotta roll to hit on those D6 hits... Unless I misread. Did I misread?

Formerly Wu wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

1) They can't scatter and miss completely against single targets like monstrous creatures, which is very common now.

That's not my read of it. If it's D6 shots, you still need to roll to hit, meaning misses are possible- just not as probable if you roll decently on the number of shots.

Well I meant exactly what I said - they can't scatter and miss completely, since they can't scatter. They CAN miss completely, but that is a whole heck of a lot less likely. On average you'll be hitting 3,5 times.

Well that's obviously impossible because nothing scatters anymore... But they can miss completely.

Now I am curious about the odds of actually pulling out a 18 wound shot with BS 3 against, say... RG. (No I don't have a beef with him it's just about the biggest thing we have at the moment to mathhammer against)

If they do have to roll to hit then my calculations are completely off and they suddenly become pretty horrible... really hope they don't somehow.

 Mymearan wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Spoiler:

 Mymearan wrote:

Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
The Battle Cannon is going to be a lot better than before from what I'm seeing.

1) They can't scatter and miss completely (very common now against single targets like monstrous creatures)

Yeah, they can. There's no word on them auto hitting. You gotta roll to hit on those D6 hits... Unless I misread. Did I misread?

Formerly Wu wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:

1) They can't scatter and miss completely against single targets like monstrous creatures, which is very common now.

That's not my read of it. If it's D6 shots, you still need to roll to hit, meaning misses are possible- just not as probable if you roll decently on the number of shots.

Well I meant exactly what I said - they can't scatter and miss completely, since they can't scatter. They CAN miss completely, but that is a whole heck of a lot less likely. On average you'll be hitting 3,5 times.

Well that's obviously impossible because nothing scatters anymore... But they can miss completely.

Now I am curious about the odds of actually pulling out a 18 wound shot with BS 3 against, say... RG. (No I don't have a beef with him it's just about the biggest thing we have at the moment to mathhammer against)

If they do have to roll to hit then my calculations are completely off and they suddenly become pretty horrible... really hope they don't somehow.

We'll know soon enough, I guess. But right now my Vindicator Triumvirate are set to be gathering dust for a loooooooooooong time.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Damn was really hoping melta was 2D6 at half-range, but I guess that would be too overpowered. Mathhammer guys, is there an real benefit to 2D6-and-pick-the-highest?

Yeah, it moves the average from 3.5 to ~4.5, so you gain 1 damage on average. It also reduces the variance - chance to get only 1 damage moves from 1/6 to 1/36, whereas chance to get a 6 goes from 1/6 to 11/36.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Damn was really hoping melta was 2D6 at half-range, but I guess that would be too overpowered. Mathhammer guys, is there an real benefit to 2D6-and-pick-the-highest?

Also I'm confused by the combi-weapon rules: Can you now fire both at the same time?

It appears so yes, with a -1 to hit.

FunJohn wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Damn was really hoping melta was 2D6 at half-range, but I guess that would be too overpowered. Mathhammer guys, is there an real benefit to 2D6-and-pick-the-highest?

Also I'm confused by the combi-weapon rules: Can you now fire both at the same time?

It appears so yes, with a -1 to hit.

Combi-plasma got a lot more dakka all of a sudden.

Remember to ask in the facebook comments if battlecannons now really have to roll to-hit rolls with D6 "shots", it doesn't make any sense for a single, explosive projectile and it might be a typo. If enough of us ask it is likely we will get an answer.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

FunJohn wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Damn was really hoping melta was 2D6 at half-range, but I guess that would be too overpowered. Mathhammer guys, is there an real benefit to 2D6-and-pick-the-highest?

Also I'm confused by the combi-weapon rules: Can you now fire both at the same time?

It appears so yes, with a -1 to hit.

Combi-plasma got a lot more dakka all of a sudden.

My Sternguard are very very happy.

5 bolters = 10 shots at BS4
5 Combi-weapon bolters = 10 shots at BS4
4 Plasma Shots at BS3
1 Melta Shot at BS3
3 Grav shots at BS3
+D6 flamer hits, if in range

 Nah Man Pichu wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
I'm not worried about CC yet, but it does look like we're going to have a ton of bullets flying.

The pieces we're missing are:

- Transports and charging
- The cost of these weapons
- Character buffs to charge rolls
- The number of attacks for bp/ccw

I don't think there's any reason to worry yet.

Yes there's a lot of boosts to shooting, but the thing I think people are missing is that with the adjustment to AP there are a lot more units that are going to stand up a lot better to shooting.

Just my opinion, we'll see how it goes.

Hmm...

7th TL HB

vs T4
3 shots, 2.7 hits, 1.8 wounds/dead

vs T3
3 shots, 2.7 hits, 2.2 wounds/dead

vs T4 3+
3 shots, 2.7 hits, 1.8 wounds, .6 dead

8th TL HB

vs T4/T3; 5+
6 shots, 4 hits, 2.7 wounds, 2.2 dead

vs T4/T3; 4+
6 shots, 4 hits, 2.7 wounds, 1.8 dead

vs T4/T3; 3+
6 shots, 4 hits, 2.7 wounds, 1.4 dead

Interesting.

Dire Avengers are doing great with their 4+. Guardians are no change.
Nobs in 'Eavy armor are a wash.

Marines get hosed.

 kestral wrote:
I fear we're seeing where the quicker games are coming from - enormous vehicle firepower.

That was my point earlier, that GW will most likely drop point costs on miniatures (they did it before) to 1.) sell more miniatures & 2.) maintain an 1.5 to 2 hour game...

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
Remember to ask in the facebook comments if battlecannons now really have to roll to-hit rolls with D6 "shots", it doesn't make any sense for a single, explosive projectile and it might be a typo. If enough of us ask it is likely we will get an answer.

They obviously did.

D6 shots represents the blast marker, so how many models it catches if in a unit or how 'blasted' the target was if solo model. It's just another way of doing it rather than using a template.

D3 damage for each 'shot' represents the impact on each model in a unit, or if the solo model is caught in an anti-tank blast, eh, it's gonna hurt.

Not hard to see the abstraction behind this weapon statline, to be honest. Just have to flip your mindset a little as the rules are different.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
Remember to ask in the facebook comments if battlecannons now really have to roll to-hit rolls with D6 "shots", it doesn't make any sense for a single, explosive projectile and it might be a typo. If enough of us ask it is likely we will get an answer.

Flamers specify you don't need to hit in their rules, battle cannons don't.

Does it really need asking?

Combi-Flamers will be ghastly now, auto D6 hits followed by a rapid fire bolter!?

Ok so melee weapons - who wants to take bets that they're going to bring more armor mods than guns?

Y'know, I was more excited about stats no longer being capped at 10 for the sake of increased granularity before we saw stats.

It feels like only wounds aren't capped at 10, as we've yet to see anything else. (Outside of double strength modifiers, but that's on specific weapons.) I was kinda hoping that's how they'd buff vehicles, by giving them much higher toughnesses and adjusting the strength of anti-tank to keep up.

Sheesh that battle cannon looks really average. I really wish they had worked on a better mechanic than just "random d6 shots" to replace templates. Seeing it on a squad flamer was one thing, but then again, there might be something I'm missing.

Pretty happy with the twin-linked and combi-weapon changes though, and the melta stats. While the old twin-linked was a good mechanic, this new one is a bit more intuitive and hopefully makes the standard land raiders more effective.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
Remember to ask in the facebook comments if battlecannons now really have to roll to-hit rolls with D6 "shots", it doesn't make any sense for a single, explosive projectile and it might be a typo. If enough of us ask it is likely we will get an answer.

They obviously did.

D6 shots represents the blast marker, so how many models it catches if in a unit or how 'blasted' the target was if solo model. It's just another way of doing it rather than using a template.

D3 damage for each 'shot' represents the impact on each model in a unit, or if the solo model is caught in an anti-tank blast, eh, it's gonna hurt.

Not hard to see the abstraction behind this weapon statline, to be honest. Just have to flip your mindset a little as the rules are different.

It just confuses the heck out of me when flamers are now D6 auto-hits weapons.

D6 shots that require to-hit rolls with BS3 /hit on 4+ is pretty awful even before factoring in movement (good luck when you hit on 5+ because you moved the tank unless some special rules take care of it). Even if you roll 6 shots that would statistically result in only 3 hits, which is just awful against any infantry that's not TEQ (and that's if rolling 6 on the number of shots roll, mind, good luck killing anything at all if you roll a 1 or 2).

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Also I'm confused by the combi-weapon rules: Can you now fire both at the same time?

You can fire both at same time but at -1 to hit per weapon.

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:

Eyjio wrote:

 Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote:
Now I am curious about the odds of actually pulling out a 18 wound shot with an BS 3 againts, say... RG. (No I don't have a beef with him it's just about the biggest thing we have at the moment to mathhammer against)

Easy enough:
(1/2)(2/3)(2/3)(1/3) = Hit*wound*save*3 damage roll = 2/27

Need to roll 6 shots once: 1/6
Need to do that roll 6 times:
(1/6)(2/27)^6=32/1162261467, or in other words ~0.000000028%

AKA don't count on it!

Thank you good ser!

2.8 x 10e-8, which is 2.8 x 10e-6 % (you forgot to multiply by 100 to get a percentage, I think?)

Going from the info we have any ap3 weapons get hosed as marines are now getting a +5 save. So the TL avenger bolt cannon puts out 16 shots now but since everything gets a save it is a NERF overall.

I would guess thus is where the points are going to drop to balance out the changes and increase army sizes.

On the plus side Rapier quad HB are hilarious now with 36 str5 rend -1 shots for a battery of 3.

Also curious to see how Laser.destroyers pan out 4 str8 rend -4 shots per rapier would be fun.

Wow, battle cannons are looking incredibly mediocre, or at least unreliable-- that's a lot of opportunities to whiff vs. the current pretty good chance of hitting a concentration of infantry as long as you prioritize volume over specific models.

The battle cannon is definitely changing its role to anti-elite & anti-single model - which isn't bad. I can get behind this.

I think the new rules make it better. While you're not guaranteed to hit your target; you are guaranteed to not scatter onto your own units. For this reason alone I think the new rules are better.

SeanDrake wrote:
Going from the info we have any ap3 weapons get hosed as marines are now getting a +5 save. So the TL avenger bolt cannon puts out 16 shots now but since everything gets a save it is a NERF overall.

Nerf against 3+ saves, massive boost against 2+ saves.

Swings and roundabouts.

 oni wrote:
The battle cannon is definitely changing its role to anti-elite & anti-single model - which isn't bad. I can get behind this.

I think the new rules make it better. While you're not guaranteed to hit your target; you are guaranteed to not scatter onto your own units. For this reason alone I think the new rules are better.

It's also worth keeping in mind that Leman Russes are going to be gaining firepower with the ability to split-fire its sponsons and hull weapon at the same time it's firing its cannon. I don't think that they're going to be lacking in damage dealt, even if their cannon doesn't roll great hits.

Youn wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

Also I'm confused by the combi-weapon rules: Can you now fire both at the same time?

You can fire both at same time but at -1 to hit per weapon.

I am actually really surprised by this, it goes against the streamlining they otherwise seem to be doing.

 oni wrote:
The battle cannon is definitely changing its role to anti-elite & anti-single model - which isn't bad. I can get behind this.

I think the new rules make it better. While you're not guaranteed to hit your target; you are guaranteed to not scatter onto your own units. For this reason alone I think the new rules are better.

Yea in a way it more sharply defines the usefulness of other anti-infantry weapons.

I wonder if there's going to be any rend -5 weapons now that TEQ get a save even from meltas