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Ok guys, I have an unusual question. I actually tried to search this in the forms and found diddley.

So here's the question in relation to Titan Void Shields.

If say, and Exorsist tank, fires 6 shots at my titan... all 6 shots hit... what happens? is each shot dealt with individually (shot 1, pen, pops a viod shield. Shot 2, glance, pops the seconds void shield, Shots 3,4,5,6 all strike the armor inside ect.) or are they all resolved at once (ok so that's 6 strength 8 hits on av 12, that's 3 glances, 2 pen... one void shield down.) It hasn't come up yet, but I just purchased a Warhound Titan (YAY!!!!) and i'm curious as one of my most frequant players has 3 exorsists. :-) Happy Hunting all!


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I know how he would want to play it, as i would want to play it the same way if i was facing such a menacing machine of war... but I know how i'd want it played being the Titan Player... Interesting stuff... *Ponders thoughtfully*

Hmmm...good question. What do the rules say? Are the shields treated as a vehicle?

I read it like this.

you roll to hit first.

then you roll the first shot against the Void Shields armor. If you pen or glance, the shield is dropped. If it fails to drop it, the next shot will be resolved against the void shield. if it drops, you then either resolve the next void shield or the vehicle itself if it is out of void shields.

Example: you fire the Exorcist at a Warhound Titan(2 Voids)

Exorcist gets 5 shots. 4 hit.

You then roll the first shot against Av12, the void shield. a 4 is rolled which is a Glance, shield down.

the 2nd shot is also resolved against a Void. this time a 2 is rolled, nothing. Shield remains up.

3rd shot is resolved against the Void Shield. a 5 is rolled, which drops the shield.

4th shot is resolved against the actual armor, which is 14 on the front.




You basically resolve each shot individually against the Voids till they are dropped. once dropped, you will resolve against armor value as normal.

Exorcists actually arn't all that scary for Warhounds. They can only glance AV14(which should always be facing them)

The real danger is that the Exorcists are good at dropping your Void shields, which leaves you vulnerable to other weapons.

@CthuluIsSpy The rules are as follows:

Certain Super-heavy Vehicles of the Imerium BLah blah blah... These work exactly like power fields (To be covered in a sec) with the exception that they can be raised again.

Power Fields: each hit scored against such a vehicle from a distance of 12" or more will instead hit a power field. close combat attacks, and ranged attaacks from a distance of less than 12", come from inside the field and therefore are not stopped at all. power fields are the equivalent of armour 12. Each glancing or penetrating hit scored against the fields cause one field to collapse. after all of the fields have collapsed, further hits are resolved against the vehicle's real armour value, as normal.

@ Grey Templar: Yeah, that's how i'm assuming they work right now, however I have heard a second theory on the issue that i'll put forward for your consideration. because when shots are fired they are all fired at once and must be decalred when fired. So wouldn't all the shots actually be striking the first Viod shield? I mean, all shots from a single unit must be resolved at the same time yes?


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I guess a good example of this is a Rhino. You may shoot 6 shots at a rhino, but you resolve all shots against it at once. Not 1 shot to pen and 5 additional shots on the troops inside if the 1st shot wrecks it. This (Granted i'm slightly biased) seemed to make sence to me.

Yes, but with that method we run into the problem that if you shoot at a Titan, and it still has at least one void shield, you can't do anything besides drop the shields.

You could unload 10 lascannons from a Blob Squad into a Titan with 1 void shield and you would only drop the shield. none would get through to the vehicle itself.


An important thing to remember is that this is Appocalypse. The rules were written in 4th edition and are showing their age. You will need to use some minor adjustments to make it run smoothly.

Oh absolutely i understand their from 4th. Most of the battle formations being useless make that clear (Granted i know there not entirely useless but you get the general statement) But if you have a blob squad shooting 10 las cannons you'd only kill one target anyways no?


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And again, i'll refer to the Transport reference. if you blob 10 las cannons, you have one dead transport and 10 guys inside untouched.


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that is assuming it didn't blow up and cause a few wounds, but thats from the transport blowing not the Las cannon shots.


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Oh and lets not forget that i'm paying 750 points for it as well...

You're not shooting at two different things in the case of a Titan with Void Shields up. You're shooting at the Titan, the Void Shield just gets in the way.

I assumed that if they all come from one unit you accolate to shields just like wounds so the titan player would chose what is resolved first and keep going until all hits are resolved or all shields or down.

Void Shields create a strange situation where a unit can have two different AV;s. The normal rules do not address
how to resolve hits in this situation ( and nor does Apocalypse for that matter! ). Like many other things in Apocalypse
you have to establish a house rule.

Option 1( in use in our group ):
- Resolve hits.
- Attacker resolves penetration rolls one by one. First against Void Shields and if they drop, then against the armor of the Titan.

Option 2
- As above but the defender gets to choose the order in which the hits are resolved.

@Theduke07 and A-P: Those are both new ways of looking at it i never considered before! the thought of Allocating wounds to the Void shields and the titan at the same time scares me a bit... sounds like the Titan could blow before the sheilds go down! haha

Larotonda1984 wrote:... sounds like the Titan could blow before the sheilds go down! haha

What? No. Example. The Titan is hit 5 times ( let us say two hits with S9 and three with S8 ).

In Option 1 the attacker chooses the order in which the hits are resolved. He chooses to start with the S8 hits first and try to drop the Void Shield with
them and spare the S9 hits for the AV14. The penetration rolls are 8+2=10 ( no effect ), 8+4=12 ( Void Shield drops ), 8+5=13
( second Void Shield drops ). Now all the rest ( 2*S9 and 1*S8 ) can be resolved against AV14.

In Option 2 the defender has the edge as he can take the more dangerous S9 hits against the Void Shields and the S8 ones
against AV14.

Ohhhh for some reason, i was thinking of allocating wounds like so: 1 on void shield a. 2 on void shield b. 3 on the Armor. ect. if dice roll #3 penitrated and caused a catostrophic ect... BOOM! void shields still in tact. but i clearly see the error of my ways. lol. I had it all wrong.

i play alot of aplocalypse, with alot of titans... 2 reavers a couple of warhounds, my phantom and revenants, plus stompas and baneblades all over. when it comes to void shields we generally just roll vrs those first, then once down continue on the titan. so pretty much option 1 as above.

the real issue would be not vrs str 8-9 hits.... but when D weapons are used, that auto pen. in the case of say a reaver thats kitted out with all turbo laz, hes throwing 8 5" D templates a turn. those will auto knock out a void shield, and usually plaster most mid to small size titans. the shields will stop the first 2, then the rest get through.

as dark eldar, i use the option one trick to great effect, using my lances to drop void shields, then following up with my titans pulsars. (ravager titan hunters and fliers also work great!) if that got changed to the target titan owner "allocating" hits .... it would mess things up considerably.

also... just as point of pride; my first revenant has now seen 10 apoc games. hes been wrecked once, and in a second game has had his main guns disabled and immobilized. but in return hes notched 2 reaver kills, 3 warhounds, 5 stompas, 4 baneblades and a knight titan. these are generally done by lances from ravagers dropping shields, then using pulsars to blast the ever loving bejesus out of the now unshielded titan. - the last game was his best by far, taking town a reaver, a warhound a stompa and a baneblade. (got some nice chain reaction rolls on the reaver...all without ever being shot at. for some reason the other side didnt place priority on the spikey scary revenant popping thier super hevs...heh)....

DarthSpader wrote:i play alot of aplocalypse, with alot of titans... 2 reavers a couple of warhounds, my phantom and revenants, plus stompas and baneblades all over. when it comes to void shields we generally just roll vrs those first, then once down continue on the titan. so pretty much option 1 as above.

the real issue would be not vrs str 8-9 hits.... but when D weapons are used, that auto pen. in the case of say a reaver thats kitted out with all turbo laz, hes throwing 8 5" D templates a turn. those will auto knock out a void shield, and usually plaster most mid to small size titans. the shields will stop the first 2, then the rest get through.

as dark eldar, i use the option one trick to great effect, using my lances to drop void shields, then following up with my titans pulsars. (ravager titan hunters and fliers also work great!) if that got changed to the target titan owner "allocating" hits .... it would mess things up considerably.

also... just as point of pride; my first revenant has now seen 10 apoc games. hes been wrecked once, and in a second game has had his main guns disabled and immobilized. but in return hes notched 2 reaver kills, 3 warhounds, 5 stompas, 4 baneblades and a knight titan. these are generally done by lances from ravagers dropping shields, then using pulsars to blast the ever loving bejesus out of the now unshielded titan. - the last game was his best by far, taking town a reaver, a warhound a stompa and a baneblade. (got some nice chain reaction rolls on the reaver...all without ever being shot at. for some reason the other side didnt place priority on the spikey scary revenant popping thier super hevs...heh)....

What's that? I never heard of that variant before.

Knights are a smaller class of Titan for which no official rules exist.


The Ad Mech has some Feudal worlds on which there are nobles who are called Knights. these Knights operate Knight Titans in battle. they are about 25% smaller then a Warhound and are typically armed with a close combat weapon and some sort of ranged weapon, although there are many varients.

They usually accompany the Ad Mech ground forces and act as a middle class between true Super Heavies and normal vehicles.

I just roll one at a time untill I collapse the shields, then go against AV.

BTW, if someone is using Destroyer weapons to tackle Voids they are doing it wrong. Those D werapons auto pen their AV 14 armouir, and +1 to damage. Doesn't do squat vs Voids.


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What if it was Vortex Missiles? Do they ignore Voids?

Deadshot wrote:I just roll one at a time untill I collapse the shields, then go against AV.

BTW, if someone is using Destroyer weapons to tackle Voids they are doing it wrong. Those D werapons auto pen their AV 14 armouir, and +1 to damage. Doesn't do squat vs Voids.

So it autopens and takes down a shield? Unless Somehow Str D ignores Void Shields

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What if it was Vortex Missiles? Do they ignore Voids?

These don't pen IIRC they'll remove structure points from a Super Heavy

His point was that StrD is wasted on Voids.

StrD will automatically take Voids down, but its a waste of the Destroyer rule.


Voids should be dropped with Autocannons and Missiles before the big guns can go to work on the actual hull.

Grey Templar wrote:His point was that StrD is wasted on Voids.

StrD will automatically take Voids down, but its a waste of the Destroyer rule.


Voids should be dropped with Autocannons and Missiles before the big guns can go to work on the actual hull.

Ah I see, my bad. This is why KFF Big Meks are the saving grave to Void Shields

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:His point was that StrD is wasted on Voids.

StrD will automatically take Voids down, but its a waste of the Destroyer rule.


Voids should be dropped with Autocannons and Missiles before the big guns can go to work on the actual hull.

Ah I see, my bad. This is why KFF Big Meks are the saving grave to Void Shields

"Yo Dawg!" "I heard you like shields, so I put some shields on your shields so you can shield while you shield!!!"

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Deadshot wrote:I just roll one at a time untill I collapse the shields, then go against AV.

BTW, if someone is using Destroyer weapons to tackle Voids they are doing it wrong. Those D werapons auto pen their AV 14 armouir, and +1 to damage. Doesn't do squat vs Voids.

So it autopens and takes down a shield? Unless Somehow Str D ignores Void Shields

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What if it was Vortex Missiles? Do they ignore Voids?

These don't pen IIRC they'll remove structure points from a Super Heavy

You do not RCC; Str D weapons auto-pen, and get a +1 to the damage result table(so are more likely to remove a structure point).

This can be found on pages 92, 93, and 96 of the Apocalypse rulebook.

This also means that they only auto-pen the Void shield, thus taking it down.

Larotonda1984 wrote:@CthuluIsSpy

Power Fields: each hit scored against such a vehicle from a distance of 12" or more will instead hit a power field. close combat attacks, and ranged attaacks from a distance of less than 12", come from inside the field and therefore are not stopped at all. power fields are the equivalent of armour 12. Each glancing or penetrating hit scored against the fields cause one field to collapse. after all of the fields have collapsed, further hits are resolved against the vehicle's real armour value, as normal.

.

I think this makes it fairly obvious that you drop a void shield for every glance or pen. Dont think of them as seperate vehicles think of them as structure points for the Void Shields.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:

Deadshot wrote:I just roll one at a time untill I collapse the shields, then go against AV.

BTW, if someone is using Destroyer weapons to tackle Voids they are doing it wrong. Those D werapons auto pen their AV 14 armouir, and +1 to damage. Doesn't do squat vs Voids.

So it autopens and takes down a shield? Unless Somehow Str D ignores Void Shields

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What if it was Vortex Missiles? Do they ignore Voids?

These don't pen IIRC they'll remove structure points from a Super Heavy

You do not RCC; Str D weapons auto-pen, and get a +1 to the damage result table(so are more likely to remove a structure point).

This can be found on pages 92, 93, and 96 of the Apocalypse rulebook.

He was talking about my comment on Vortex Missiles.

This also means that they only auto-pen the Void shield, thus taking it down.

I find that in general titans still suck. My 8 FDs in a Wave Serpent just utterly crush titans with the same ease as a Land Raider. I've never understood how titans were considered cost-effective.

They have good AV and Voids, loads of range, D weapons galore, Their weapons can all fire at different targetas, and they move and assault like GCs. hey should be able to take out a couiple of large tanks to make up points costs.

AchillesFTW wrote:I find that in general titans still suck. My 8 FDs in a Wave Serpent just utterly crush titans with the same ease as a Land Raider. I've never understood how titans were considered cost-effective.

Firedragons are a class of unit that Titans are deliberatly left vulnerable to. Fast moving upclose Melta.


Titans are meant to engage at long range and they need support. Otherwise they will fall to exactly what you have proposed.

The attacker doesn't allocate the hits. All hits from the same unit are rolled for at the same time, with each penetrating or glancing hit removing one void shield until there are no void shields left, with the rest allocated agained the titan's armor facing; there are no rules that state the attacker choses which hits are scored against armor and which are scored against the shields. The defender gets the advantage in that they can determine which hits score against the shields first.

This is why you always strip the shield off first with one unit, and blast the titan with all the rest of your units.

SJ

except that would involve a single volly rolling against AV12, but actually hitting AV14 and resolving against it.

Also keep in mind D str guns generally ignore cover. All you get is invun.... So your big Mek KFF does gak, same as flat out skimmers etc.

My attic as mentioned is to lance any shields down, then pound with the D weapons. Nothin better then scoring 4 pens on a bane blade and getting 3 fives rolled. Heck anything 4+ pretty much breaks anything with 3 structure points or less.

On topic I think void shields are dealt with individually untill they go down, then everything just. Resolves on armor.

Thank you all for helping out! I think i pretty much get it now. :-)