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1k GK Terminators vs. 1k Draigo and Paladins, which tactical dreadnought armor is more cost efficient!?

I had a chance to play a "for fun only" game with another experienced Grey Knights player to test which GK tactical dreadnought model is better:

a) 20 GK Terminators, 2 psy cannons each, 1 squad has a banner. 2 Inquisitors, 1 melta gun each (no points left for any other equipment).

b) Lord Draigo, 10 paladins (not all of them are unique due to point limitations) 3 MC Psy Cannons, 1 Psy Cannon, Banner, 1 soladin

Obviously, neither list is balanced or has a very good chance of winning a 1k tournament!

Pre game analysis:

Paladins are good, but the Terminators outnumber them almost 2 to 1! Without having to pay for a 275 character, the Terminators field 9 more bodies in Terminator armor, have 8 extra storm bolters and 2 melta guns and have a combined (4x9+3*9) = 63 power/force weapons attack on the charge!!! Draigo and his paladins should have no chance!

The two armies:



Deployment:


The battle:


Excellent use of Grand Strategy - Scouting and the movement phase to allow the Paladins to deal with one terminator squad at a time!











Conclusion: Total domination by the Paladins, and that is without Draigo hardly doing anything the entire game! I really thought the extra bodies, shooting and hand to hand attacks will win the day for the Terminators but the game wasn't even close. Now I have an idea of what people feel like when they play against a Draigowing!!!

I hope you guys found the report entertaining! Special thanks to JY2 for inspiring me to do a battle report.

Kinda seemed to me it was more down to the fact the Paladins had the right load out, I think with a better load out on normal GK's you could've probably fared a bit better.

I'm assuming you meant Combi-Melta for the Inquisitors since they can't take Meltaguns?

Kinda seemed to me it was more down to the fact the Paladins had the right load out, I think with a better load out on normal GK's you could've probably fared a bit better.

What do you have in mind, psybolt-ammo?

I'm assuming you meant Combi-Melta for the Inquisitors since they can't take Meltaguns?

Yes, good catch!

I dunno, its pretty early lol, or late seeing as I haven't slept.

I'd have forced a Libby in there, any way shape or form I would've done it.

It basically came down to the fact the rolling was better for the Paladins, you got 5 rending wounds in the first turn for them, that's abnormal.

Not sure on the points but the standard Terminator list would do much better if it had a Librarian rather than 2 Inquisitors. Also knowing that they were going second deploying the Terminators out in the open was a big mistake, you know that at on average at least 4 Rends are going to get through and you aren't in any rush to get anywhere.

Trying to out-shoot a draigowing army with small-arms fire is really a bad idea. 16 rending psycannon shots is no joke. You played an excellent game and made good use out of your Grand Strategy (though personally, I would've gone for re-rolling 1's to wound).

Your opponents list definitely should've taken psybolt ammo. The 2nd inquisitor didn't offer much of value besides wound shenanigans. This is probably how I would run my terminator list (if I was to run one):

Xenos Inquisitor - Psykatroke+Rad Grenades - 55
10x GKT's - 2x Psycanons, Psybolt Ammo, 1-2 hammers, 1-2 swords - 470
10x GKT's - 2x Psycanons, Psybolt Ammo, 1-2 hammers, 1-2 swords - 470
995




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Powerguy wrote:Not sure on the points but the standard Terminator list would do much better if it had a Librarian rather than 2 Inquisitors. Also knowing that they were going second deploying the Terminators out in the open was a big mistake, you know that at on average at least 4 Rends are going to get through and you aren't in any rush to get anywhere.

Regarding the psycannon shots, average is about 2 rends. 16 shots, 12 hits, 10 wounds, 2 rends. He rolled way above average.

Frankly, I wouldn't be too concerned about rending shots. The key is to combo-charge his paladins with both units of GKT's. If you stay behind cover or in area terrain, you're going to give him an extra turn to shoot at your army, which IMO is even worse.

You can make the paladins a complex unit with the points that you have. You just need to take off 2 Master Craftings from the Psycannons and put them on a Sword and a Halberd.

Master Crafted Psycannon+Halberd
Psycannon+Halberd
Psycannon+Sword
Psycannon+Demonhammer
Demonhammer
Master Crafted Halberd
Halberd
Master Crafted Sword
Sword
Brotherhood banner


I do not see what a librarian will add. Possible a =3 cover save to the times he rends?

Yeah my bad on the Rending maths, but either way my point about standing in cover still stands. You aren't in any rush to get in to combat (as in you can chip away at them with shooting), and being in cover doesn't really slow you down that much in any case (I'm not suggesting you run though cover the entire way there btw). Half the reason the Paladins won this was because they were able to cripple one of the Terminator units early and as you mentioned the key for the Terminators was getting a good combo charge in, which requires both units alive for starters. Honestly its pretty basic stuff, if you aren't going first you know stuff is going to get shot, so anything you can do to protect them without completely breaking your game plan is a good idea. If you are going first then sure, deploy out in the open.

A Librarian adds heaps to the Terminator list, as it would to the Paladin list actually. For starters it lets you get both Hammerhand and Force Weapons which really hurts the Paladins (Paladins already have this thanks to Draigo but it doesn't do much in this case), and also gives you a decent chance of stopping anything the Paladins try psychic wise with the Hood. Then depending on which powers you take, he potentially gives you 3+ cover (helpful against those rends), forces the Paladins to slow down/die to terrain and the abilty to hit harder (with Might of Titan) or faster (with Quicksilver, more helpful in this case) or both. On top of that he has Psyk Out Grenades.

Its a moot point really, because the Libby costs way too much to fit into these lists.

Thanks to everyone for the comments and ideas!

As a clarification, the Terminators had cover every single time they were fired upon, but they saved 1/3 or so of the 12+ rends they took (dice, what can you do). The strategic goal of the Terminators (as mentioned above) was for both units to coordinate against the Paladins, but I never expected that the Terminators (who have the same number of psy-cannons but more storm-bolters) would be outshout so easily.

The idea of this game was to test out two hypothesis:
a) Paladins do not bring enough to the field for their point upgrade over Termiantors.
b) Draigo costs the Paladins too many points to be effective over troop Terminators.

You never saw Draigo in action, but he is a beast in assault. He is striking terminators with strength 10.

If you damaged a terminator squad enough, he might be able to wipe it out by himself. Doing the quick math, Draigo might be able to kill a squad of 6-7 terminators by himself if he gets the charge.

Draigo does a lot of things for a paladin squad, but what he can also do is function almost like a squad by himself.

I completely agree!

I played 10+ games with Paladins without using Draigo, then finally decided to give up almost 300 points to include him in the army and my experience has been nothing but O.O!!!! I mean, the Daemonhunter's Grand Master and Brother Captain Stern were strong but Draigo is in a whole different Tier Level all together!

Draigo is stupid, I am not trying to sound overtly negative but he is way too strong for his cost... That said if I played the GK I would include him as there is no reason not to. As for GK termies verse Paladins, it should be better to have bodies over wounds but since the current wound allocation rules are broken, it's the opposite... During 'Ard Boys semis this year I witnessed an entire DE army shoot a torrent of poison at a 5 man Pali unit and not even one dropped do to the rules as they stand, I wish I could say this was uncommon but I see it all the time.

To beat paladins you need to avoid playing on their terms, outrange, out maneuver and lastly force LD checks on them and then you can beat them... I honestly was shocked to see you field 2 inquisitors without rad or psychatroke grenades...

Hey JY2 when are you playing Reece?

Red Corsair wrote:Draigo is stupid, I am not trying to sound overtly negative but he is way too strong for his cost...

How do you figure?

Red Corsair wrote:
Hey JY2 when are you playing Reece?

Unfortunately, Reece had to reschedule this week.

However, I did play against FNP Blood Angels.

Coming soon....the debut of my Draigowing army vs FNP Blood Angels - 19 FNP TH/SS assault terminators and 50 FNP assault marines!

The unstoppable force vs the immovable object.

Seriously? Well, he is S5 T5, S10 against other psychers or demons, has Grand strategy AND psychic communion AND makes Paladins troops which incidentally frees up his grand strategy where he should have t use it t make them scoring.

I mean, do you understand the game at all? Pick up any other codex and find me a character that buffs his entire army and will stand toe to toe with anything for 275 points... Seriously try to find a character as good for his cost.... just look at the dudes gear, SS, titan sword and storm bolter and three types of grenades.... WTF!? Level 2 psycher with 3 powers.... 7 special rules.... Stupid...

Ex. Calgar 265, worse profile, less perks, allows three honor guard which does nothing especially as they don't score, Is not a psycher, let alone one at level 2... And I genuinly think calgar is a good character!

Good btrp Grey Therion. Draigo-wing scales well at 1K.

Red Corsair wrote:
Draigo is stupid, I am not trying to sound overtly negative but he is way too strong for his cost...

-Indeed, he is powerful as the Emperor has foreseen!

Good btrp Grey Therion. Draigo-wing scales well at 1K.

Thank you! I need to get a digital camera and start doing battle reports like Jim (very time consuming) but I would also like to learn how to do summary diagrams of the battle were everything can be described visually in a single image!

When the terminators charged the paladins, did you remember psystroke grenades?

Yep, the paladins had their initiative reduced and I used the banner to increase the terminators attacks and instantly kill paladins. Unfortunately at that point in the game simply too few terminators made it to hand to hand combat.

IMHO I'm guessing that paladins having two wounds also had a lot to do with it.