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Ok so I have a guy that likes to model his nobz with a power klaw and a big shoota in his boyz squad. He said it's for fluff perposes, that a nob wouldn't allow a boy to carry a bigger gun. I get the reasoning behind it and it makes since from a fluff stand point. He says that this is the proper way to model a boyz mob. However my question is:

Is this a legal modeling option or would I be told I couldn't use this model? The way I understood the codex is that you can upgrade a boy to a nob but to me that means he's a nob now, not a boy so why would you be able to give him a boy upgrade e.g. a big shoota.

I read the codex the same as you, once a nob he can only have the nob upgrades.

It's a nice idea although I feel pointless. Orks can't shoot for toffee so why give your nob a two-handed weapon taking a Power claw attack away from him?

Model wise it would look cool but I would say no, he can't have it! Imo!

I would allow the big shoota, it makes no difference really and looks great. The big shoota cannot subtract the number of power claw attacks in close combat as you cannot get +1 attack for extra close combat weapon anyway with your power klaw/ fist.

^^^

Ah yes! Very true! Forgot the whole power/special weapon thing and was just thinking of the 2 handed thing!

But i'd still say rules wise he can't imho. But i'd let him cause i'm cool like that!

just count it as a regular gun, not a big shoota.

I model some of my marines with chainswords and bolters, just for the hell of it sometimes. Modeling things differently looks cooler, and as long as its slight changes only, shouldn't make a difference to the game.

Depends... Some language codexes require you to give your 'choppa and slugga' for a big shoota. Others require just a slugga (english)

The logic is you can upgrade a boy to have a BS + Choppa. Then upgrade THAT boy to a NOB giving him a BS + Choppa and then exchanging the Choppa for a PK. Since there is no order of operations and the FAQ allows you to do this to get a PK nob in a shoota boy mob, there is an argument...

What this does is gives trukk boyz and extra attack since a slugga is wasted on a NOb as he does not get an extra attack. It basically gives a boy a slugga for +1 attack and replaces the Nob's useless slugga. It is a SLIGHT advantage for trukk boys.

If your codex says 'slugga' then you are ok. if it says 'choppa and slugga' your Nob can have a BS just no PK.

Its completely fair... You can give a nob a pk, and you can give a nob a big shoota, why not give him both?

The main confusion for me is it says you have to trade in your chappa and shoota for the big shoota, since he's going to have a power claw and not the slugga how is he allowed to have both. Plus the codex says for every 10 boyz you can have one boy upgrade to big shoota or rocket launcha for free. Doesn't say anything about a nob. I'm not saying people are cheating. I just want to make sure how I model my units is acurate. It just seems like a way to sneak the extra firepower in for longer

wowsmash wrote:The main confusion for me is it says you have to trade in your chappa and shoota for the big shoota, since he's going to have a power claw and not the slugga how is he allowed to have both. Plus the codex says for every 10 boyz you can have one boy upgrade to big shoota or rocket launcha for free. Doesn't say anything about a nob. I'm not saying people are cheating. I just want to make sure how I model my units is acurate. It just seems like a way to sneak the extra firepower in for longer

If the codex you guys are using says 'Choppa and slugga' then the boy gets a Big shoota and then becomes a NOB who has no choppa to exchange for a PK.
If the codex you guys are using says 'slugga' then the boy gets a Big shoota and then becomes a NOB who has a choppa to exchange for a PK.

It doesn't give you any extra firepower... You can still only have 1 BS per 10 boyz.

Basically here is the order:
*Buy 12 slugga boys
*Buy 1 BS on a boy
*Upgrade BS boy to Nob
*exchange Choppa (if he has one still based upon your rulebook) to PK
*Exchange boyz choppa/slugga for shootas if you do desire

This path is supported by the ork FAQ as it is the only way a SHOOTA nob can have a slugga to exchange for a PK. The only iffy part is if your printing of the codex says exchange 'slugga' or 'choppa/slugga' for a heaavy weapon.

wowsmash wrote:The main confusion for me is it says you have to trade in your chappa and shoota for the big shoota, since he's going to have a power claw and not the slugga how is he allowed to have both. Plus the codex says for every 10 boyz you can have one boy upgrade to big shoota or rocket launcha for free. Doesn't say anything about a nob. I'm not saying people are cheating. I just want to make sure how I model my units is acurate. It just seems like a way to sneak the extra firepower in for longer

For a big shoota you only need to exchange your slugga or shoota, so youre still left with a choppa to exchange for a PK.
Completely legal to give that big shoota to your nob.
By the way, the advantage is that now your guy with a big shoota is harder tokill. So no, its not the same as just giving it to a boy, but its completely legal.

Jollydevil wrote:but its completely legal.

Some non-english codexes have 'choppa and slugga' So it depends on your codex.

Jollydevil wrote:

wowsmash wrote:The main confusion for me is it says you have to trade in your chappa and shoota for the big shoota, since he's going to have a power claw and not the slugga how is he allowed to have both. Plus the codex says for every 10 boyz you can have one boy upgrade to big shoota or rocket launcha for free. Doesn't say anything about a nob. I'm not saying people are cheating. I just want to make sure how I model my units is acurate. It just seems like a way to sneak the extra firepower in for longer

For a big shoota you only need to exchange your slugga or shoota, so youre still left with a choppa to exchange for a PK.
Completely legal to give that big shoota to your nob.
By the way, the advantage is that now your guy with a big shoota is harder tokill. So no, its not the same as just giving it to a boy, but its completely legal.

Great thanks for the info. i have a limited budget and i want all my models to be legal and what you see is what you get. thanks for the help.

nkelsch wrote:

Jollydevil wrote:but its completely legal.

Some non-english codexes have 'choppa and slugga' So it depends on your codex.

Mhm... I never thought about that. Under the assumption the OP is using English i geuss than, unless otherwise stated. Thanksfor pointing that out to me.

sorry guys but you cant have a nob with a big shoota and a power klaw the codex says one ork in ten may have a big shoota and one boy may be upgraded to a nob

when you upgrade a boy to a nob he takes on the rules for being a nob as a big shotta isnt one of his options he can not take it

kencotter wrote:sorry guys but you cant have a nob with a big shoota and a power klaw the codex says one ork in ten may have a big shoota and one boy may be upgraded to a nob

when you upgrade a boy to a nob he takes on the rules for being a nob as a big shotta isnt one of his options he can not take it

Says one ork, so if they wanted to specify that only boyz could take a big shoota, they shouldve.

I kind of err on a conservative view of the ruling. I want to say that only boyz may take the bs, and that the nob can only take the choices that are specific to nobs in boy squads.
But my codex says that for every ORKS in the mob, one ORK may exchange his slugga or shoota for a bs. That makes me think that the nob, as an ork, can have a bs. But I agree its kind of a sketchy interpretation of the rules because the option for the bs is listed along with other choices that I associate with being available to boys.
I don't think I know enough about the rules to make a fair call tho. However, it shouldn't matter if the nob model has a pk and a bs if you're just going to say that his bs is a shoota. That doesn't make a difference so long as it shoots like a shoota.

tona7 wrote:I kind of err on a conservative view of the ruling. I want to say that only boyz may take the bs, and that the nob can only take the choices that are specific to nobs in boy squads.
But my codex says that for every ORKS in the mob, one ORK may exchange his slugga or shoota for a bs. That makes me think that the nob, as an ork, can have a bs. But I agree its kind of a sketchy interpretation of the rules because the option for the bs is listed along with other choices that I associate with being available to boys.
I don't think I know enough about the rules to make a fair call tho. However, it shouldn't matter if the nob model has a pk and a bs if you're just going to say that his bs is a shoota. That doesn't make a difference so long as it shoots like a shoota.

By that thinking a Nob leading a boyz mob doesn't have access to a shoota as it's not listed as one of his weapons choices, in fact, no Nob can have a shoota, they can have shoota kombi-weapons (incl TL) but not a shoota so by the same token, if you say that he can have a shoota as the entire mob may replace their sluggas and choppas w/ shootas then it seems to me by that same logic then theoretically he can take a big shoota by upgrading to carry it before being upgraded to a nob & he'd keep the big shoota because obviously if a nob has a shoota then he got it by upgrading to have it when he was a boy before he was upgraded to a nob.

I agree that the FAQ supports this by saying that a Nob can have his weapons upgraded to a power klaw/big choppa BEFORE you choose to upgrade the mob to have shootas

Red_Starrise wrote:

tona7 wrote:I kind of err on a conservative view of the ruling. I want to say that only boyz may take the bs, and that the nob can only take the choices that are specific to nobs in boy squads.
But my codex says that for every ORKS in the mob, one ORK may exchange his slugga or shoota for a bs. That makes me think that the nob, as an ork, can have a bs. But I agree its kind of a sketchy interpretation of the rules because the option for the bs is listed along with other choices that I associate with being available to boys.
I don't think I know enough about the rules to make a fair call tho. However, it shouldn't matter if the nob model has a pk and a bs if you're just going to say that his bs is a shoota. That doesn't make a difference so long as it shoots like a shoota.

By that thinking a Nob leading a boyz mob doesn't have access to a shoota as it's not listed as one of his weapons choices, in fact, no Nob can have a shoota, they can have shoota kombi-weapons (incl TL) but not a shoota so by the same token, if you say that he can have a shoota as the entire mob may replace their sluggas and choppas w/ shootas then it seems to me by that same logic then theoretically he can take a big shoota by upgrading to carry it before being upgraded to a nob & he'd keep the big shoota because obviously if a nob has a shoota then he got it by upgrading to have it when he was a boy before he was upgraded to a nob.

Jebus, put some periods in there.

This is most interesting... I never looked at the ruling that way.

I totally agree with the idea of the Nob not letting a boy have the big shoota. Infact i may just do that to all my Trukkin Nobz.

I am a little confused by one thing in the FAQs: If the Nob in a Boyz squad can be up-graded after equipment, why cant a Painboy in the Nob squad?
It clearly states that "One NOB may BE a Painboy. Not UPGRADED to a Painboy.
To me, I see "Painboy" as an equipment option. Not being able to take 'Eavy armour on a Painboy just seems stupid.

...Okay... just read the Nob entry again. Is a Painboy 30 or 50 points? Cause now I'm seeing it as a Painboy being seperate from the Nobz themselves.
That would cancel my previous argument and save me enough points for another Deffrolla.

Red_Starrise, I think I explained my logic in a bad way. I basically agree with you because that logic makes sense. In the same way that the nob is part of the boyz mob and can switch his slugga and choppa for a shoota, it should also be possible to equip him with a big shoota. I don't even see why the equip has to happen before he becomes a nob (not that it matters either way).

A painboy is a nob you already spent 20 points for. You stack 30 points on top of him by making him a painboy. And I'm pretty sure he's still a nob so I don't see why he couldn't take 'eavy armour.
He is a painboy though, and it says he trades his slugga and choppa in for the 'urty syringe and doc's tools. That means he can't take the additional weapon options.

I don't believe you pay 20 and add 30. I think it's just 30. There's a GW example of an Ork list and they only spend 10 points to upgrade the nob to a painboy.
Actually he isn't upgraded at all. The entry in the rulebook is worded "One nob may BE a painboy." Not upgraded to.

Jollydevil wrote:
Jebus, put some periods in there.

Yeah, MAJOR run-on sentence, I know. Sometimes my brain gets ahead of my hands & things like that result lol.

DeffDred wrote:I don't believe you pay 20 and add 30. I think it's just 30. There's a GW example of an Ork list and they only spend 10 points to upgrade the nob to a painboy.
Actually he isn't upgraded at all. The entry in the rulebook is worded "One nob may BE a painboy." Not upgraded to.

I'm actually pretty sure you pay 30 on top of the 20 actually. The way I see it, you buy a squad of nobs for 20 each, and then you pay an additional 30 points for it. You're right that it says the Nob may be a painboy, so it may not be an upgrade. But it says "A Nob may be a painboy." You have to make it a nob first by paying 20 points for it.
Otherwise I think it would say One Model may be a painboy for 30 points.
I

That's what I mean. The unit mast have between 3-10 Nobs. A Nob may be a Painboy. If you look at the sample army list in the codex and do the math on the Nobs, they only payed 30 for the nob/painboy.
This makes sence to me. Since the Painboy is its own entry and not under "options" I would guess he's much like a named character upgrade. In other words 10 Nobz including the painboy would be 210 pts not 230.

Ok, in my codex under the Ork Infantry Horde sample army they pay the whole fifty points for the painboy.
5 nobz at 20 points a piece is 100 points.
+ 2 twin-linked shootas adds 10 (5 a piece)
A power klaw for 25
Waaaggh! Banner for 15
Bosspole for 5
painboy 30
grot orderly 5
For a total of 190 points. (pg 82)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Don't get me wrong, I'm down for saving points where I can, but I think you may be adding it up wrong...

The painboy can't be one of the regular Nobs as you can't buy him gear. he is not an "option" he is a seperate entry for the unit.

Nobs are 20 points. The squad of nobs is 3-10 nobs. One nob may be a painboy. Not, one nob may be upgraded to a painboy.

4 Nobs (80)+ Eavy armour (20)+ Power Klaw (25)+ Painboy (30)= 5 models, 4 with eavy armour and a single powerklaw (155).

If I pay pay 50 for the Painboy hes taking Eavy Armour, IDC what the FAQs say.

Yeah, but to be a painboy you have to be a nob.
"One Nob may be a painboy."
To be a nob you have to spend the 20 points, then the nob may be the painboy for 30. It's spelled out in the codex.
I think 50 points is pretty good for feel no pain.

Youre all forgetting that hes still a nob, so he still fights like one. You dont lose a nob when you get a painboy, you just upgrade him with poison weapons and feel no pain. So even though youve got 9 nobs and a painboy, the painboy is just as good as any other nob, with added benifits. And those benifits are definitely worth the extra 30 points.

You don't upgrade!!!! I does not say upgrade! The painboy isn't under "options" HE IS SEPERATE!!

I read it as follows:
Of the required 3-10 nobz, one maybe a painboy.
Not:
Of the 3-10 nobz, one maybe upgraded to a painboy.

If the painboy were an upgrade he would be able to take options from the nob entry.
Example: Nob(20)+Eavy Armour(5)+Bosspole(5)+Waaagh Banner(15)+Paniboy(30)=75
This is impossible as GW FAQs state that the Painboy cannot take the gear.
If the Painboy were an upgrade he would be under the heading "Character" and it would state "One Nob may be upgraded to a Painboy...+30 points".

The painboy is simply listed as "Painboyz". You'll notice that "Boss Snikrot", "Boss Zagstruk" ect. Are also not under "Character" entries.
You also do not have to pay for a boy+nob before either of them are added.

DeffDred wrote:You don't upgrade!!!! I does not say upgrade! The painboy isn't under "options" HE IS SEPERATE!!

I read it as follows:
Of the required 3-10 nobz, one maybe a painboy.
Not:
Of the 3-10 nobz, one maybe upgraded to a painboy.

If the painboy were an upgrade he would be able to take options from the nob entry.
Example: Nob(20)+Eavy Armour(5)+Bosspole(5)+Waaagh Banner(15)+Paniboy(30)=75
This is impossible as GW FAQs state that the Painboy cannot take the gear.
If the Painboy were an upgrade he would be under the heading "Character" and it would state "One Nob may be upgraded to a Painboy...+30 points".

The painboy is simply listed as "Painboyz". You'll notice that "Boss Snikrot", "Boss Zagstruk" ect. Are also not under "Character" entries.
You also do not have to pay for a boy+nob before either of them are added.

Ok, following your example: Nob(20)+Eavy Armour(5)+Bosspole(5)+Waaagh Banner(15)+ Grot Orderly(5)+Paniboy(30)=80 (addedd Grot Orderly)
This is a totaly legal. Because a painboy is a Nob and under options it says "Any Nob may take any of the following:" That list is all the stuff added to the painboy in the example

Look at the GW FAQ again and please tell me what page it says a painboy can not take this stuff. Because I can not find it in the GW FAQ.

A painboy replaces his choppa and slugga with dok's tools and 'urty syringe thats his war gear. Because the painboy is a Nob he can take any option as a regular Nob can. His choppa and slaugga are gone, so the rest of the option he can take. If he can't, Painboy Bikers are illeagal because thats an option.