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on the forum. Obviously

How exactly do they come to be?
Does a high-ranking member of an original chapter decide to leave and form his own army?
Or are they created by the AdMech under orders from the High Lords?

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Official successor chapters will be formed under order from the higher levels of Imperial governance. A chapter will lose a couple of companies and their associated kit to form the core of the new chapter along with a chunk of gene-seed to allow the new formation to grow.

Alternatively I guess isolated parts of chapters might decide to go their own way, however that would probably be considered heretical and lead to excommunication rather than being considered a founding.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

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The High-Lords of Terra declare a Founding, geneseed is selected from the tithed stocks of an existing Chapter (usually the Ultramsurfs) and inserted into what are essentially test-tube people in order to replicate it.

Marines from the parent chapter are selected to train the initiates of the new chapter and to oversee creation, with the Ad Mech also providing the gear necessary as well as the geneseed.

Once the chapter is founded, I believe the marines who trained them can choose to stay (and likely take charge as high ranking veterans, being the only ones with any experience) or go back to their parent chapter.

Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

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Avatar 720 wrote:The High-Lords of Terra declare a Founding, geneseed is selected from the tithed stocks of an existing Chapter (usually the Ultramsurfs) and inserted into what are essentially test-tube people in order to replicate it.

Marines from the parent chapter are selected to train the initiates of the new chapter and to oversee creation, with the Ad Mech also providing the gear necessary as well as the geneseed.

Once the chapter is founded, I believe the marines who trained them can choose to stay (and likely take charge as high ranking veterans, being the only ones with any experience) or go back to their parent chapter.


So it's a bit of both of what I thought then.
Ok, but what about the Cursed Foundings? Weren't those a bit different?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/12 17:51:28


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http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cursed_Founding

Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

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The official way to form successor chapters is that the High Lords say "we need a new Founding." The AdMech says "Okay, we've got a lovely sale going on Ultramarines gene-seed. Buy any other successor chapter, get three Ultramarines chapters for free!" Then they put chapter icons of all the chapters that they really like up on a dartboard and throw some darts (anywhere between half a dozen and half a hundred, depending on how fiesty the Magoi are feeling that day). Whoever gets a dart then gives up, say, a full battle company, plus maybe another fifty reserve troopers and a few dozen scouts, a ship or two, and some battered, hand-me-down power armour.

That's the orthodox way. More daring chapters, like the Sons of Medusa, say "You know what, Iron Hands? You're not XTREEM enough for us (keep in mind, the Sons of Medusa left the IRON HANDS for NOT HATING HARD ENOUGH). We're gonna split. And we won't send cards on Space Christmas or Space Thanksgiving." Then three clan-companies bail out and start to do their own thing. Then they realize that it's hard for a minor to get a job in a respectable codex, so they start turning tricks at ForgeWorld, claiming that "Codex: Space Marines is too mainstream anyway. Stupid conformists."

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FerrusFair wrote:The official way to form successor chapters is that the High Lords say "we need a new Founding." The AdMech says "Okay, we've got a lovely sale going on Ultramarines gene-seed. Buy any other successor chapter, get three Ultramarines chapters for free!" Then they put chapter icons of all the chapters that they really like up on a dartboard and throw some darts (anywhere between half a dozen and half a hundred, depending on how fiesty the Magoi are feeling that day). Whoever gets a dart then gives up, say, a full battle company, plus maybe another fifty reserve troopers and a few dozen scouts, a ship or two, and some battered, hand-me-down power armour.

That's the orthodox way. More daring chapters, like the Sons of Medusa, say "You know what, Iron Hands? You're not XTREEM enough for us (keep in mind, the Sons of Medusa left the IRON HANDS for NOT HATING HARD ENOUGH). We're gonna split. And we won't send cards on Space Christmas or Space Thanksgiving." Then three clan-companies bail out and start to do their own thing. Then they realize that it's hard for a minor to get a job in a respectable codex, so they start turning tricks at ForgeWorld, claiming that "Codex: Space Marines is too mainstream anyway. Stupid conformists."

This is a pretty accurate representation on how it's done.
Though i would add that the AdMech actually use space darts and a space dartboard... no one uses normal darts anymore...

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CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Avatar 720 wrote:The High-Lords of Terra declare a Founding, geneseed is selected from the tithed stocks of an existing Chapter (usually the Ultramsurfs) and inserted into what are essentially test-tube people in order to replicate it.

Marines from the parent chapter are selected to train the initiates of the new chapter and to oversee creation, with the Ad Mech also providing the gear necessary as well as the geneseed.

Once the chapter is founded, I believe the marines who trained them can choose to stay (and likely take charge as high ranking veterans, being the only ones with any experience) or go back to their parent chapter.


So it's a bit of both of what I thought then.
Ok, but what about the Cursed Foundings? Weren't those a bit different?

Yeah, they were not made differently. They were just cursed.

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purplefood wrote:
FerrusFair wrote:The official way to form successor chapters is that the High Lords say "we need a new Founding." The AdMech says "Okay, we've got a lovely sale going on Ultramarines gene-seed. Buy any other successor chapter, get three Ultramarines chapters for free!" Then they put chapter icons of all the chapters that they really like up on a dartboard and throw some darts (anywhere between half a dozen and half a hundred, depending on how fiesty the Magoi are feeling that day). Whoever gets a dart then gives up, say, a full battle company, plus maybe another fifty reserve troopers and a few dozen scouts, a ship or two, and some battered, hand-me-down power armour.

That's the orthodox way. More daring chapters, like the Sons of Medusa, say "You know what, Iron Hands? You're not XTREEM enough for us (keep in mind, the Sons of Medusa left the IRON HANDS for NOT HATING HARD ENOUGH). We're gonna split. And we won't send cards on Space Christmas or Space Thanksgiving." Then three clan-companies bail out and start to do their own thing. Then they realize that it's hard for a minor to get a job in a respectable codex, so they start turning tricks at ForgeWorld, claiming that "Codex: Space Marines is too mainstream anyway. Stupid conformists."

This is a pretty accurate representation on how it's done.
Though i would add that the AdMech actually use space darts and a space dartboard... no one uses normal darts anymore...


Space darts are dirty xenos tech-heresy.

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forruner_mercy wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Avatar 720 wrote:The High-Lords of Terra declare a Founding, geneseed is selected from the tithed stocks of an existing Chapter (usually the Ultramsurfs) and inserted into what are essentially test-tube people in order to replicate it.

Marines from the parent chapter are selected to train the initiates of the new chapter and to oversee creation, with the Ad Mech also providing the gear necessary as well as the geneseed.

Once the chapter is founded, I believe the marines who trained them can choose to stay (and likely take charge as high ranking veterans, being the only ones with any experience) or go back to their parent chapter.


So it's a bit of both of what I thought then.
Ok, but what about the Cursed Foundings? Weren't those a bit different?

Yeah, they were not made differently. They were just cursed.


Well, they were largely cursed because the AdMech decided to tinker with the geneseed in an effort to purify some flaws. Always a bad idea.

For what it's worth, the Deathwatch supplement Rights of Battle offers the following table to determine a custom chapter's progenitor, based on rolling a D100:

1-50: Ultramarines
51-65: Blood Angels
66-80: Dark Angels
81-85: Imperial Fists
86-90 White Scars
91-94: Raven Guard
95-98: Iron Hands
99: Space Wolves
100: Salamanders

   
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If you were hoping for a Space Puppy or a Sallie then you're pretty much out of luck there.

Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

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"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation 
   
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Avatar 720 wrote:If you were hoping for a Space Puppy or a Sallie then you're pretty much out of luck there.


Especially since, unless they changed the fluff in the 5e book, there was only ever one Space Wolves successor, and it was FUBAR from the getgo. Flawed gene-seed.

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I was replying to Seaward's post

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/10/13 15:46:03


Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.

Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.

My deviantART Profile - Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Madness

"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation 
   
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Yeah, I dunno how much I buy it. Not sure why the Blood Angels (noticeably flawed geneseed) and the Dark Angels (super secret squirrels) would be favored over the Imperial Fists.
   
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Gathering the Informations.

Dark Angels geneseed is considered some of the most stable, and they have everything "intact" in terms of the various organs, etc.

Imperial Fists are missing some bits and bobbles, but otherwise the geneseed is fairly pure.

Blood Angels geneseed, while flawed, is also stable for the most part.
   
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Kanluwen wrote:Dark Angels geneseed is considered some of the most stable, and they have everything "intact" in terms of the various organs, etc.

Imperial Fists are missing some bits and bobbles, but otherwise the geneseed is fairly pure.

Blood Angels geneseed, while flawed, is also stable for the most part.


I get the impression that the BA's flaws aren't exactly unknown, however; I just can't see the High Lords ordering up a bunch of potential crazed berserkers far more often than they do nice, safe, cuddly Marines who simply can't spit acid or whatever. For that matter, why on earth are the White Scars so low? They have exactly as much chance of being selected as the Raven Guard - the creepy albinos who like to, y'know, think. Heresy.
   
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Gathering the Informations.

Raven Guard geneseed just isn't available in that high of quantities. Despite being a "Founding Legion", the Raven Guard have only been used to create two Successor Chapters.

White Scars, we have no real clue as to why there's not so many of them.

As for the Blood Angels...the Black Rage isn't as common as you think it is.

   
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Kanluwen wrote:Raven Guard geneseed just isn't available in that high of quantities. Despite being a "Founding Legion", the Raven Guard have only been used to create two Successor Chapters.

White Scars, we have no real clue as to why there's not so many of them.

As for the Blood Angels...the Black Rage isn't as common as you think it is.



I'm fairly sure the Raven Guard are responsible for more than two, we've just never gotten it absolutely super-duper confirmed that a lot of the successors strongly suspected of being RG descendants actually are. And while they're certainly involved in some manpower difficulties, they still tithe geneseed, and that'll add up over ten thousand years.

Blood Angels...eh. The Black Rage may not be common, but it's still around, as is the Red Thirst. They're both the sort of things that you'd think would make the HLoT hesitate, especially with blokes like the Flesh Tearers and Knights of Blood running about.
   
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I'm surprised they even included the Wolves in the list of potential Founding Chapters. I envision the High Lords and AdMech attempting to get a hold of the required geneseed to create the Successor chapter to be an image much akin to trying to pull the chew-toy away...

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The Space Wolves aren't exempt from tithing, are they? I'd be shocked if so - after all, it was the Astral Claws not tithing their geneseed that kicked off the Badab War.
   
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Seaward wrote:The Space Wolves aren't exempt from tithing, are they? I'd be shocked if so - after all, it was the Astral Claws not tithing their geneseed that kicked off the Badab War.

True, but the SW are exceptions to quite a few rules (killed any Inquisitors lately?).

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The Wolves are exempt because, at least in their various write-ups on the topic, there were so few of them left at the end of the Heresy that they could not break the Legion up into any Chapters, and the one time they created a Successor Chapter, things went horribly, horribly awry, and so no later attempt was made.

I think it is still maintained that there are not enough Space Wolves in the Chapter to spare a company or three to found another Chapter.

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Psienesis wrote:The Wolves are exempt because, at least in their various write-ups on the topic, there were so few of them left at the end of the Heresy that they could not break the Legion up into any Chapters, and the one time they created a Successor Chapter, things went horribly, horribly awry, and so no later attempt was made.

I think it is still maintained that there are not enough Space Wolves in the Chapter to spare a company or three to found another Chapter.


The Space Wolves are actually oversized (somewhere between 2k and 2.5k marines), but they still feel their gene seed has stability problems

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Seaward wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Raven Guard geneseed just isn't available in that high of quantities. Despite being a "Founding Legion", the Raven Guard have only been used to create two Successor Chapters.

White Scars, we have no real clue as to why there's not so many of them.

As for the Blood Angels...the Black Rage isn't as common as you think it is.



I'm fairly sure the Raven Guard are responsible for more than two, we've just never gotten it absolutely super-duper confirmed that a lot of the successors strongly suspected of being RG descendants actually are. And while they're certainly involved in some manpower difficulties, they still tithe geneseed, and that'll add up over ten thousand years.



I know of at least THREE for a start.
Black Guard
Revilers
Raptors
   
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Gathering the Informations.

Revilers, Raptors, and Black Guard are a bit of an exception as they apparently were from when the Legion was partitioned.

I always forget the stupid Revilers though.
   
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Seaward wrote:The Space Wolves aren't exempt from tithing, are they? I'd be shocked if so - after all, it was the Astral Claws not tithing their geneseed that kicked off the Badab War.


Its more to do with the fact that only the people of Fenris can hold the geneseed of the space wolves without going utterly insane.

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TBH, I don't think *any* of the current Chapters follow the "1000 Marines limit" set down in the Codex Astartes. This is more the fault of GW writers than any in-universe treachery or nose-thumbing, however.

Don't the Templars have something like 6,000 Battle Brothers?

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