Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Your basic warrior is 30 pionts, armed with scything talons, a devourer, 3 wounds, and a 4+ save. This is a pretty decent load out, 3 strength 4 shots, and WS5 rerolling ones, but is this really a viable way to go? I would like to discuss it's viability in 5th edition, and how it compares to 4th edition.

The warrior is T4, fairly common, with the added bonus of having 3 wounds. While this may seem good in practice, does it really create an effective combat unit? At S4 WS5 I4 and 3 attacks, it seems like it would be a fairly viable combat unit right? It seems as though it were designed to fulfill a sort of median close combat role, juxtaposed between the carnifex and genestealers. It can be kitted with a vast amount of weaponry, though these quickly drive up the cost of the unit. LW and BS for 50% of the models original cost? While this is a pretty awesome affect, you are basically getting a very slow and easily killed point eater.

You could also give them wings, creating shrikes, but are those really the trade? You expose an already vulnerable unit into the world of the 5+ save. Or you can give them a drop pod, which can vastly reduce the required travel distance, but they also have to spend a turn sitting exposed to fire from an enemy that will probably prioritize them. There is no point in taking a small squad, as the 40 point cost of the pod is too high a ratio of points to justify the use of the pod. Alternatively, you could massively increase the squad size, maxing at 9, and maybe even a prime in there as well. However, this would cost a minimum of 390 points, and would likely sink a massive chunk of points into a unit that could very well die in one turn. I may be being little harsh in that assessment, but it stands to reason that the enemy will sink a lot of fire into them, and there are a lot of S8+ weapons out there.

A third option would be to kit them for ranged combat. A barbed strangler or VC would most likely be the first choice. However, as a weapon, the VC falls short on many accounts. strength 6 AP4 small blast on a BS 3 creature probably won't score many hits, and -1 on the vehicle damage chart will severely decreases the amount of damage it can do. The barbed strangler is the other option, being S4 large blast, and pinning, which is the main reason for it's effectiveness, it can be effective, but is this really points efficient? 130 points for one effective gun? Seems pretty meh to me.

In 4th edition, you had the same stats, + eternal warrior, + move through cover, for the tradeoff of one less wound. This seems like a much better choice, especially considering the vast amount of biomorphs and weapons you could kit them out with.

The 5th edition warrior is too exposed to be viable in the current edition. It's many potential roles fall short, either being too expensive, or easily replaced by something else. I really like the warrior, but it seems to be one of the least competitive units in the codex.

Thoughts? Too ranty? Too old? I know most people have had plenty of time to think about this, so what do you think?

Pretty much completely agree. Another unit that got hit hard by the 4e-5e change.

Warriors are CC beast's (excuse the pun) but they fall short with the 4+ armor...

melta guns smoke them, anything thats AP4 will decimate them, and they get shot way to easily.

Any time I ran warriors I was to afraid to put them out in the open with fear of being shot.

Warriors are CC beast's (excuse the pun) but they fall short with the 4+ armor

Problem is, there is an abundance of S8+ armor ignoring, armor ignoring with lots of attacks, and armor ignoring + ID CC to be had, some of which is also going to strike first, this goes double in the price range upgraded warriors start reaching. It's not just the 4+ armor save. T4 4+ with three wounds is not that bad. What hurt them worse is the loss of EW, and to some extent the lack of an invulnerable save.

Now they're great for shredding things like powerblobs, but that's the kind of the nids have no problems doing to begin with.

The thing with warriors is that not many seem to get good results with them. What they usualy get compared with is the tervigon. A tervigon to around 190 points also has 6 wounds. A warrior group of about the same also has "6" wounds. They are better in CC until there are around 2 models left, and they are easier to grant cover. They do not hand out feel no pain or gaunts but they shoot a whole lott better.

If you are a fan of primes they can be better even.

It depends a lott on your list. If you are the zoanthrope player then you can aford to have less MC's vs tanks. If you are a hiveguard/ygmar player then you need MC's vs tanks and dreadnoughts.

If each warrior just was 5 points less I think they would be worth it. As with almoast all things in the tyranid codex they are just a tiny bitt to expensive. (Gargoyles, hive guards, tervigon, mystic spore, ravners and trygon exluded. Those units are priced just right and makes the other units looook just not competetive enough under 5th edition mec spam.)

Edit: Frag grenades would also make warriors better. But that is an utopic dream aparantly.

Frag grenades on so many things would make nids better, we have the lictor and i'm pretty sure thats it, in a massively close combat oriented army

Warriors just dont cut it, sad to it, but true

Warriors just don't cut it for me. I just tried a 1500 point list comprised of mostly Warriors (with rending claws and venom cannons), and it didn't work out very well. S8 weapons just work against them very efficiently... And venom cannons are way too unreliable to use against vehicles and in many cases troops too, what with the AP4 and scatter.

I have used Warriors successfully when kitted out with Scything Talons and Rending claws (for 30 points, no less!) and run with a Prime to get even better weapon skill. I've had more success with this loadout, since they can be run into combat fairly quickly. I've also sent Venomthropes along with them in some cases for the 5+ cover.

No available grenades is very frustrating.

IDK I think in smaller games they can be very effective. A smallish (5 strong) group, with a VC and a prime can really do some damage. They all get 3 shots, and thanks to prime, are shooting at BS4. They are going to do a helluva lot of damage, granted at <18". Just shield them with gribbles, and they get up the field fine. Not to mention that they eat TH/SS termies for breakfast when they have LW/BS. Instant death, and reroll invlun saves? On a WS6, I4 platform? Come on.

Though i agree with everyone, they are way too easy to ID. But at lower points, they can be a great way to mix in some synapse, and prove cheap heavy hitters.

For the very vital Troop slots, Warriors fall short as they represent a niche unit that was supposed to be the in between of a costly unit that does both melee and ranged attacks decently but not expertly.

They don't rock a T5 nor an invulnerable save, and they become expensive when equipped for either better shooting or better melee skills. At the end of the day, can you justify a 200-300 point unit that gets autokilled by the abundance of meltaguns and missile launchers out there?

Now in an army that can take them, the Fast Attack slot opens up Ravagers. Ravagers are dedicated CCers with a large threat radius and find a well placed role as counterchargers. That is what the Warriors do is fail to find a role within a reasonable point cost.

Not to mention that they eat TH/SS termies for breakfast when they have LW/BS.

A BS/LW warrior bothers my terminators exactly as much as a death company marine with a power weapon. Less so, actually, because the warriors lack grenades, by-default furious charge and cost quite a bit more.

Instant death, and reroll invlun saves? On a WS6, I4 platform?

...What? ID doesn't bother one wound models very much, and the forcing rerolls on stormshields is -Only- one the bone sabres carried by the swarmlord. Warrior swords are exactly the same as a power weapon in the face of TH/SS, and lash whips...well..reduce them to the same I as their thunderhammers. Hammers which hit back on the same 4+ as they would if you were WS4. Not many of these have to survive to cause a severe issue for a warrior brood.

While you might overwhelm the stormshields with volume of attacks, if you do not, you are looking at some pretty hefty hits in return, while being at least as expensive as the terminators you have killed. Even should you manage the feat, you are still likely sitting directly in front of a lot of shooting attacks that can ID a warrior, and out of CC.

As agreed with above, Tyranid Warriors, even if beefed up to fight well in melee, should not be going up against the likes of TH/SS Terminators. That's what your gaunts are for.

I think Warriors actually are about right.

The problem is that some of the Imperial codexes are too cheap and have a variety of obvious, easy win builds. This has affected the meta in ways which are bad for Warriors.

The problem is that some of the Imperial codexes are too cheap and have a variety of obvious, easy win builds.

No. I am sorry, this is not a "Well, space marines can spam something and win, but it's not really a problem with the target unit, it's that GW loves marines too much." problem.

If you have a unit exceptionally vulnerable to anti tank fire, and anti-tank/walker capable CC, and then you proceed to introduce a BGB emphasizing vehicles and the removal thereof, you cannot expect this unit to remain viable in the face of the obvious thunderstorm of arriving vehicles and the counters that come along with them.

There is NO Imperial codex that does not have a plethora of tools they can turn to rapidly reduce warriors and the like to the casualty pile. From BT and DA to GK and IG. DE also have a healthy ability to remove...well...Tyranids in general from the board in shooting or CC, but failing everything else there seems to be the ever present colonial-era musket line of darklances. When the Necrons codex hits, I expect them to fall into this category as well.

They really, REALLY need EW back.

LW/BS warriors are pretty good against GK, Halberds stops working thanks to LW, Shadow in the Warp would make it harder to activate force weapons. And ID would work against Paladins.

LW/BS warriors are pretty good against GK, Halberds stops working thanks to LW

Area cover and rifleman dreads have something to say about this. So would a MM+DCCW dread coming out of the stormraven in more CC oriented lists.

Shadow in the Warp would make it harder to activate force weapons.

Switch the words "Hidden powerfist" with "Hidden mastercrafted Daemonhammer." powers are not needed except in the case of someone being woefully short sighted. Also keep in mind that in the case of GKTs/GKPs, banners may well be present, bypassing SITW completely.

And ID would work against Paladins.

Correct, and this is probably the one place where LW/BS warriors MIGHT shine. However, their ++ saves are still present, and testing at LD9. Keep in mind too, that these warriors are approaching the cost of a paladin to begin with.

SOFDC wrote:

LW/BS warriors are pretty good against GK, Halberds stops working thanks to LW

Area cover and rifleman dreads have something to say about this. So would a MM+DCCW dread coming out of the stormraven in more CC oriented lists.

Shadow in the Warp would make it harder to activate force weapons.

Switch the words "Hidden powerfist" with "Hidden mastercrafted Daemonhammer." Hammerhand is not needed except in the case of someone being woefully short sighted. Also keep in mind that in the case of GKTs/GKPs, banners may well be present, bypassing SITW completely.

And ID would work against Paladins.

Correct, and this is probably the one place where LW/BS warriors MIGHT shine. However, their ++ saves are still present, and testing at LD9. Keep in mind too, that these warriors are approaching the cost of a paladin to begin with.

Well, Rifledread and such shooting warriors means less shots on your MCs, which isnt a bad thing. GK actually has less things that will ID Warriors from range than most armies. (Rifledread, Meltas on a few units.) Most GK weapons are short ranged so they can stay back in cover to snipe you.

Daemon hammers, rarely see more than more per squad (Unless this is termies or paladins).

If they have a banner, all multi wound models without EW should steer clear anyway. And these are usually taken in large deathstar squads that are better off tarpited or avoided.

They are also better off versus Purifiers than most nid units. MC are in greater risk of dying to the I6 halberds, hordes of little bugs are gonna die to Cleansing Flames.

I am not saying they are the amazing anti-GK unit for nids, just that they actually have a few advantages against them.

Rifle dreads are all the craze. It will not be uncommon in a competitive setting to see 5 or 6 in a list. They will chew through warriors like nothing, and if you did put points into Warriors and claim that they take the wounds instead of MC's, please bear in mind that you now have less MC's anyway.

The best way to deal with Purifiers is to shoot them simply put. But if you can't you can at least buff a large unit of stealers with FnP and then get the charge. Even better if you have Poison on them and Preferred Enemy from a Tyrant and Shadows coverage. That's a combat heavily in favour of the nids.

But anyways back to Warriors. I think a good case has already been made against them by previous posters. The fact that you pay a large amount of points for 3 wounds while on a T4 model is ludicrous. Sure they will absorb small arms fire like nothing, but that's not what is going to be fired their way. DE have Dark Lances, Marines have Missile spam, IG have templates and Lascannons galore...I don't think I have to elaborate...

The best way to deal with Purifiers is to shoot them simply put. But if you can't you can at least buff a large unit of stealers with FnP and then get the charge. Even better if you have Poison on them and Preferred Enemy from a Tyrant and Shadows coverage. That's a combat heavily in favour of the nids.

Aye, against purifiers your best bet really is to hit them with gunfire. However if you have the SITW support and just have to charge in, I would suggest charging in inexpensive units you don't mind losing rather than stealers if he has area terrain to hide behind (Or taking advantage of the fact that a librarians range on sanctuary is great enough that even if the PURIFIERS are in SITW, the librarian may not be. As an aside this -may- also go for the librarian casting might of titan or quicksilver from out of SITW range on his turn if he wants to take the intitiative.)because it again skews CC back in the purifiers favor. A Coversave and FNP is great against stormbolters and non-rending psycannons, but it won't do a great deal against their force weapons.

i like warriors... kit them out for shooting, and take a good number of them, and surround them with devilgaunts, and maybe a dakkafex or 3. scytals and devourers work pretty well for all purpose stuff. and the odd venom cannon can help. they arent anti tank units...they are there to shoot up infantry. let other units pop tanks. but i think a single unit of 6-8 is respectable. and as mentioned they are small enough to take advantage of cover, and have gaunts screen them

The thing with warriors is that it feels really bad when they die and they have dimineshing returns when compared to an MC who only looses life.

All of those melta's / rocket launchers will be targeting all your MC's, zoanthropes, warriors and raveners. All plasma and S5/6 heavy 3/4 will also be targeting the same once, but they will not instant kill T4 (including warriors.)

I must say, if warriors are the first to die then why on earth do the oponent fear them so mutch? I would mutch rather he killed my warriors then my tervigon, or is it the other way around?

When you play tyranids vs anything non melle you spread points into hitpoints divided into bascets out through your army. Then you try to grab cover saves where you can, and then your oponent can shoot at whatever he wants. If the warriors get shot first, then perhaps they are really good?

What are yiour thoughts? Whatever the Nid player runns something will be shot. At least the warriors have a cover save?

SOFDC wrote:

Instant death, and reroll invlun saves? On a WS6, I4 platform?

...What? ID doesn't bother one wound models very much, and the forcing rerolls on stormshields is -Only- one the bone sabres carried by the swarmlord. Warrior swords are exactly the same as a power weapon in the face of TH/SS, and lash whips...well..reduce them to the same I as their thunderhammers. Hammers which hit back on the same 4+ as they would if you were WS4. Not many of these have to survive to cause a severe issue for a warrior brood.

While you might overwhelm the stormshields with volume of attacks, if you do not, you are looking at some pretty hefty hits in return, while being at least as expensive as the terminators you have killed. Even should you manage the feat, you are still likely sitting directly in front of a lot of shooting attacks that can ID a warrior, and out of CC.

I realize that ID doesn't matter to single wound models but it does matter to paladins, and those HQ units that ALWAYS seem to roll with the terminators...hmm lets see...thats every independent character in the vanilla book that isn't Calgar or Lysander. Thats kind of a lot. I don't know the other books that well, but I'm going to assume not all of their HQ's have eternal warrior. So when Vulkan gets punched in the face by a warrior, who makes him reroll his invlun save, and then he fails his leadership check, bam you just lost 195 points. How do your warriors feel now?

I'm not saying they're perfect, they are overcosted. However, I was just saying that they have some uses and are not completely useless (pyrovore I'm looking at you).

Niiai wrote:The thing with warriors is that it feels really bad when they die and they have dimineshing returns when compared to an MC who only looses life.

All of those melta's / rocket launchers will be targeting all your MC's, zoanthropes, warriors and raveners. All plasma and S5/6 heavy 3/4 will also be targeting the same once, but they will not instant kill T4 (including warriors.)

I must say, if warriors are the first to die then why on earth do the oponent fear them so mutch? I would mutch rather he killed my warriors then my tervigon, or is it the other way around?

When you play tyranids vs anything non melle you spread points into hitpoints divided into bascets out through your army. Then you try to grab cover saves where you can, and then your oponent can shoot at whatever he wants. If the warriors get shot first, then perhaps they are really good?

What are yiour thoughts? Whatever the Nid player runns something will be shot. At least the warriors have a cover save?

Amen brother.

Thats kind of a lot. I don't know the other books that well, but I'm going to assume not all of their HQ's have eternal warrior. So when Vulkan gets punched in the face by a warrior, who makes him reroll his invlun save, and then he fails his leadership check, bam you just lost 195 points. How do your warriors feel now?

Did you bother reading my post? Only the swarmlord makes me reroll saves. Warriors do not. Ever. Even if they had 10 boneswords per model. Secondly, any attacks swinging at vulkan are NOT being swung at the terminators who will be quite displeased with you for attacking their leader, and his ID test is on a LD10, and at most I will have to make a grand total of -two- of them. This is not overly worrisome. Meanwhile, with reduced pressure on the TH/SS, they are probably going to be removing even more warrior bases than they would otherwise.

I must say, if warriors are the first to die then why on earth do the oponent fear them so mutch?

Unit that has as many power weapon attacks as a unit of LC terminators or death company, making CC a poorer option to shooting them down. Check.
Unit that dies easily to my AT shooting. Check.
Unit that I really don't want supporting the MCs when I unleash the hounds on the MCs with TH/SS or similar. Check.
Unit that provides synapse. Check.
Unit that takes out a sizable chunk of my opponents points (And a killpoint!) for relatively little effort. Check.

Prognosis: AT shooting <CENSORED>storm commencing in 3...2...1...

If the warriors get shot first, then perhaps they are really good?

Perhaps they were closer to the Chimera borne meltagun veteran squads than the MCs were at the time and made a better choice than devoting meltaguns to termagants?

However, this has all been under the assumption of BS/LW warriors. Shooty warriors are slightly different, and whether or not to deal with these as a priority will depend on the rest of the list and how the board. As noted, they don't have a whole lot of hope of opening the metal bawkses on their own, meaning they are one of the things I don't really have to deal with immediately if I don't want to. ...But I may want to, if that is the only synapse on that part of the board.

EDIT: somehow missed that post above mine

But yeah, warrior boneswords do not force re-rolls of invulnerable saves. Only the swarmlord does that.

forgive me, but I fail to see how a 35 point, 3 wound MEQ with Rending and master-crafted attacks at WS 5, plus Furious Charge or Poisoned, can be considered a bad unit.

Yes, they're vulnerable to missiles, but couldn't you just stick a Prime with them and keep to cover?

but couldn't you just stick a Prime with them and keep to cover?

Primes will only protect you from ranged, rather than CC counters, and even then only one wound at a time. Psyriflemen will be delivering multiple at once. IG will be using "Fire on my target!" and ALSO shooting multiple ID attacks at once. To say nothing of ordnance or barrage weapons. SW can outright spam enough shots to overwhelm cover saves easily. etc.

forgive me, but I fail to see how a 35 point, 3 wound MEQ with Rending and master-crafted attacks at WS 5, plus Furious Charge or Poisoned, can be considered a bad unit.

That's fine and all, but the reasons for them not being a great choice have been stated repeatedly. They lack grenades, they lack eternal warrior, they lack an invulnerable save, and rending was nerfed into unreliability. In an environment with abundant shooting and CC that can ID and AP them and ways to effectively deliver it.

In my experience, even a 10 man MEQ squad with a fist or hammer, particularly if also carrying meltaguns will very adequately handle a warrior brood like this, unless you have a large brood running around. Even if they cannot kill it outright, between IDing in shooting phase, charging, and combat resolution after a warrior or two has taken off by the sergeant will leave the squad so mauled it becomes ineffective.

Fair enough.

odorofdeath wrote:forgive me, but I fail to see how a 35 point, 3 wound MEQ with Rending and master-crafted attacks at WS 5, plus Furious Charge or Poisoned, can be considered a bad unit.

Yes, they're vulnerable to missiles, but couldn't you just stick a Prime with them and keep to cover?

Warriors are one of those 'great on-paper' units - they sound amazing until you try to use them on the board. I know - I've tried almost every combination. And at a viable 40-45 pts each, you're looking at 3-400 points, more with a Prime. And there goes a HQ slot too...

Large broods, shooty, with/without Prime? Shot to death. With Prime, better killing power but didn't make back enough points...
Small brood, as above - died before being close to useful.
Large brood, rending or boneswords, scything, adrenal - With or without Prime, very deadly. Cost way too much, especially with Boneswords... Die very quickly unless they get locked in combat right away. Very useful against T3 enemies (Sisters, Tau, Guard etc) if they survive long enough. Screening units are needed.
Small brood, as above: die immediately without sacrificial screen.

There's so much AP4 and S8 that it makes no sense to use Warriors for Synapse - I'd rather use Shrikes and get the mobility. No upgrades, except maybe adrenal glands. Few more points but... they can surprise some opponents. And even so, anything based off the T4 Warrior statline is iffy at best (for me).

For novelty/laughs, I love putting a Prime in a CC squad, to be honest - they're overcosted, but I think of this style as being expensive, larger Genestealers. Who don't make back points. :p

Wow. That's disheartening, as I was considering getting a bunch of Warriors for my new Tyranid army... I guess I should hold off. Lol.

So... same story with Raveners? They look even better on paper...

Raveners are surprisingly effective, when used properly. I have never had luck deep striking them - they just get shot to pieces. Running them, though, can be great. I treat them as very effective, longer ranged Hormagaunts, and it's worked out acceptably well for me. They do die horribly sometimes *(always) but usually kill something worthwhile beforehand. Don't bother with ranged biomorphs.

Cover saves are nice, but failing that, bring 5-6 and expect some to die before getting into combat. Then reroll dice a lot once you're in combat! They're a fun unit because the beast charge range is so delightfully large... they're intimidating to everyone I face even though they're not really that deadly. They're just potentially deadly.

Why on earth do you have lash whips and boneswords on them? Then they will just die. To keep warriors playable (if they are) then they should cost less then the other MC options. Warriors are baisicly a MC that has his wounds divided around. Of course he will be shooting at the 270 point 6 man warrior squad with lash whips and boneswords.

Do not upgrade the warriors that mutch. If you wanne play death dealer then use a prime and hide him with hive guards.

odorofdeath: Compare the ravaners to the trygons. Trygons are the best MC's in the codex. The ravaners are just as good, sometimes better, until they reach around 2 models left (a MC with1 hit point is still fighting as good as a full healed MC.)

Warriors have the problem that you are being compared to the tervigon. (With has feel no pain and termagant spawn.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SBG wrote:

odorofdeath wrote:forgive me, but I fail to see how a 35 point, 3 wound MEQ with Rending and master-crafted attacks at WS 5, plus Furious Charge or Poisoned, can be considered a bad unit.

Yes, they're vulnerable to missiles, but couldn't you just stick a Prime with them and keep to cover?

Warriors are one of those 'great on-paper' units - they sound amazing until you try to use them on the board. I know - I've tried almost every combination. And at a viable 40-45 pts each, you're looking at 3-400 points, more with a Prime. And there goes a HQ slot too...

Large broods, shooty, with/without Prime? Shot to death. With Prime, better killing power but didn't make back enough points...
Small brood, as above - died before being close to useful.
Large brood, rending or boneswords, scything, adrenal - With or without Prime, very deadly. Cost way too much, especially with Boneswords... Die very quickly unless they get locked in combat right away. Very useful against T3 enemies (Sisters, Tau, Guard etc) if they survive long enough. Screening units are needed.
Small brood, as above: die immediately without sacrificial screen.

There's so much AP4 and S8 that it makes no sense to use Warriors for Synapse - I'd rather use Shrikes and get the mobility. No upgrades, except maybe adrenal glands. Few more points but... they can surprise some opponents. And even so, anything based off the T4 Warrior statline is iffy at best (for me).

For novelty/laughs, I love putting a Prime in a CC squad, to be honest - they're overcosted, but I think of this style as being expensive, larger Genestealers. Who don't make back points. :p

I do not see how any of these arguments are better if they are aplyed to a tervigon that also cost around 195 points. The argument "they will get shot and instant killed" is not a good argument seing how that same shot would take off a wound of your MC. Dimineshing returns? Yes, by the time there are around 2 warriors left. Tervigons cannot fight at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

odorofdeath wrote:forgive me, but I fail to see how a 35 point, 3 wound MEQ with Rending and master-crafted attacks at WS 5, plus Furious Charge or Poisoned, can be considered a bad unit.

Yes, they're vulnerable to missiles, but couldn't you just stick a Prime with them and keep to cover?

In a regular codex it would be good, but in the tyranikd codex you have very little transport and your oponent usualy has a better ranged game then the nid. That way, all he do is shoot and the back away with his venom/landspeeder/predator/long fangs etc. You need to axept 2 to 3 turns of shooting at your army before you see any action.